I think the reality of why Evan won was simple. The USFSA wants Evan as its poster boy. Johnny shoots himself in the foot with his off the wall comments and his in your face persona (although I have to admit he has gotten better lately). They want a "role-model" who will attract more boys into the sport. I don't blame the USFSA for not wanting to promote him. Btw I totally think Johnny out skating Evan tonight and should have won, but I'm just giving my 2 cents of insight into why Evan won and didn't get the appropriate deductions.
Mens Free Skate
- Thread starter Vicky458
- Start date
I agree with flyingnun. But the marks and medal should reflect how a skater did at the competition. USFSA can still promote a silver medalist.
Johnny's jumps and edges are so much improved. Evan's long has 4 or 5 mistakes, and most of his jumps are very small. His axels looks not impressed at all.
Johnny's jumps and edges are so much improved. Evan's long has 4 or 5 mistakes, and most of his jumps are very small. His axels looks not impressed at all.
oke so i just saw johnny's lp on youtube, wow i mean WOW what passion,... pure,... and powerfull and straight from the heart, you could see he was giving it all he had, especially those last steps in the straight line step sequence he was just poring his emotions on the ice,....
WELL DONE Johnny!!!!!
i'm shure you will rock the podium at worlds!!!
WELL DONE Johnny!!!!!
i'm shure you will rock the podium at worlds!!!
i don't have the expertise of many of you-but i enjoyed evan's program more last night. johnny's "in betweens" looked simpler to me, also like maybe the program wasn't complex enough for him. i do think johnny has not peaked yet this season, i can't wait to see him at world's- but i don't claim to know anything about the scoring. one thing- in the taped pieces-johnny came off as sort of unlikable to me. i like his irreverance-but he seemed sort of snobby to use his own word. i didn;t enjoy it. he said something like everyone takes me so seriously-but it seemed like he was taking himself too seriously at that point. i don't enjoy his mean queen routine. in his on the spot interviews-he was very likable, very real. the taped stuff seemed fake to me-an act.
- Joined
- Oct 27, 2006
An amazing finish last night for the men. I just hope that both Evan and Johnny can bring it at worlds!!
To me, it was one of those "whole versus sum-of-the-parts decisions". Just watching without trying to keep score, Johnny's performance was smooth, effrtless (until the last two jumping passes), and coherent. Evan's was helter-skelter, this is good, that was bad, is he trying to be Zorro? (no that was yesterday). Johnny won, hands down.
But when I looked at the protocols just now, I couldn't really find much to nit-pick (except all those +3's for Lysacek's footwork. I liked Melissa Buganhui's better, LOL.)
Evan had 61.58 in base values for his jumps. Weir, 58.08 -- but it would have been 60.83 if he hadn't doubled the second jump if his Lutz combo.
Johnny won the program component battle, 79.14 to 78.72.
Johnny got a total of +3.15 GOE on his jumps, Evan only + 0.57. Evan was properly docked on his quad combo, 3A combo, and solo 3A.
Add it all up, that's how it came out. C..O..P.
BTW, given that both skaters were destined to end up isomewhere in the 240s (and similarly, mutatis mutandis, for the other disciplines), a tie should happen in one of the four disciplines at Nationals about once every 250 years.
Come back in the year 2258 and check it out!
This and all the discussion help mes understand more what happened --- but I even said before 'analysis' that Weir did leave some planned points on the table. I think the Last jump combo could have been 3Lutz 3Toe, but I seem to remember from earlier that it was intended to be 3 Lutz, 2 toe, 2 loop...and he has missed it before. So clearly, Weir needs to own whatever that combo is during Worlds. And the flip - usually so great for him was a bit off. BUT, I still don't 'get' the PCS completely - and I mean that in this case but more generally too -- conversations we have all had before regarding what is this component really looking at/for.
Anyway, I truly hope Weir is so proud of himself - still room to learn and improve, but in just this one season, he conquered his nerves, skated last and really shined while doing so - loose, calm, almost squeaky clean....beautiful. I enjoyed the whole comp this year.
- Joined
- Jul 28, 2003
I totally agree with your comments. I think I could accept that Evan won if it had been by a bigger margin but to give the title to Evan based on his program.....what a joke!!!There are things Johnny can do, and needs to do, to get more points in his LP but he should have won anyway.
Lysacek didn't get properly deducted for the mistakes he made, plain and simple.
Also, according to these judges, Lysacek's straight-line footwork sequence is the BEST FOOTWORK SEQUENCE THAT HAS EVER BEEN PERFORMED.
Best Footwork sequence my big toe!!!! Evan does jumps, spins but has no connection to the music whatsoever!!!!!
Dee
Last edited:
- Joined
- Jan 6, 2007
No, it couldn't have been 3Lz3T, because he did 2 3A and 1 3T,1 3R,1 3S, 1 3Lz, 1 3F. So he didn't add the 2 loop to the 3 Lz 2T (he added it at the GPF). He could have added a 2T to any jump during the program, because they were all amazingly landed with great flow - except for the Quad and the Flip. I think he wanted to add a 2T to the Flip and didn't do it after the wonky landing - lots of skaters would have tried anyway, but I think that Johnny really wants everything to look perfect and effortless.
That's why he doesn't like the Quad (and honestly, there are very few skaters who make the Quad look beautiful and manage to integrate it fluently into a program), and that's probably the reason for not adding the 2T after the wonky 3F.
- Joined
- Sep 23, 2004
In total agreement with you. It will be some weeks before the competition is broadcasted for my country, so I managed to find a video of Johnny's FS in YouTube (his short program was removed...) and I have to say 
to Johnny on that amazing performance!! Now I have to find Evan's but, Johnny was soooo good, it puzzles me so much that they were so close in PCS, especially if Evan's performance wasn't so good (as commented in the forum). Well, at least Johnny knows his own strenght and this will help him going to Worlds.Eye of the beholder
It's a subjective sport. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I don't think there is some grand scheme on the part of USFSA to reward one style over another or to penalize a skater for their off-ice comments. The judges gave Evan more points for the LP then Johnny. There are also people who prefer beer to champaign. It's simply a matter of taste.
Linny
It's a subjective sport. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I don't think there is some grand scheme on the part of USFSA to reward one style over another or to penalize a skater for their off-ice comments. The judges gave Evan more points for the LP then Johnny. There are also people who prefer beer to champaign. It's simply a matter of taste.
Linny
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
I would say so, too. Except that I have abandoned hope of understanding what it is the CoP is talking about when they say Performance/Execution, Choreography, and Interpretation.
Maybe it is what Linny just said -- eye of the beholder. But that can't be it either, because Caroline Zhang is pretty as can be (fact, not opinion, LOL), yet the judges didn't go crazy giving her a big second mark just for that.
Lysacek and Weir were tied in Choreography (7.86 each). Lysacek beat Weir in Interpretation (Evan, 8.14, Johnny, 8.11). But Weir had better choreography than Lysacek and he interpreted the music better. So I don't know what to think...
- Joined
- Jul 1, 2007
The Flip is actually Johnny's worst jump. It has the least consistent landing out of all his jumps and he does Lip too. IMO, Johnny should train this jump layout for his LP:
4T
3A + 3T
3F
3A
-------------
3Lz + 3T
3Lo
2A + 2T + 2Lo
3S
- Joined
- Dec 28, 2006
I was REALLy rooting for Evan I was was SHOCKED that he won. I was in much a bad mood after johnny's skate... and scott kept saying how close it would be and how interesting this is and I was like no, it's not gonna be close at all! johnny will win by like 20 points. I think even Evan was surprised. He didn't seem that happy.. probably stunned. The only thing i can think of was that Johnny's quad was underroatted and called a triple. a two footed triple toe might make him lose enoght points to let Evan sneak by.
As I said last night, i'll take it, but in all fairness, johnny was robbed.
As I said last night, i'll take it, but in all fairness, johnny was robbed.
Interesting to see those comments of yours, Mathman, especially when you seem to be one of those who actually understand this CoP stuff
Having finally seen the vids (SP and FS) of both Johnny and Evan my (admittedly simplistic) over-riding impression was that Johnny was 'very watchable ' while Evan was 'barely watchable'.
While that may be a bit harsh on Evan, I know I'm far from alone in this and this is what confuses me about the whole management and promotion of the sport. Surely the 'powers that be' would want more people watching and enjoying the sport, rather than requiring them to study up on their math and work their calculators furiously in what would probably nonethless be a vain attempt to work out who's the 'better skater' ?
Your comment about the Whole vs the Sum of the Parts was spot on I though.
Ahh well, maybe FS is just meant to be controversial. Sandalous even.
- Joined
- Jan 6, 2007
@Tinymavy: you just made my day! I read your pro-Evan comments before the competition and I love that you are such a fair person and say that Johnny should have won.
His Quad wasn't underrotated, it was doublefooted and got -1,29 GOE, Evan's Quad-Combo got -1,86 GOE.
I actually love the passion Evan can bring to his program - but except for his Straight-Line-footworks it wasn't really there, not in SP or LP. Though I doubt the massive GOE he got on his LP-Straighline is justified.
The PCS was strange, someone else already pointed out that Evan got less PCS for his LP last year, than he got this year. But the thing with Johnny's program is that the hard jumps are all at the beginning of his program - his triple axel is so good, can't he put one of them after the halfway-mark?
His LP seems like a security-program for me, something to increase his self-confidence. It is a good program, but it is - even combined with all the Johnny-artistry and liquid gold stuff - not really an outstanding program. He can make it a great performance (like yesterday) but it is nothing compared to the intensity of Otonal or the The Swan.
His Quad wasn't underrotated, it was doublefooted and got -1,29 GOE, Evan's Quad-Combo got -1,86 GOE.
I actually love the passion Evan can bring to his program - but except for his Straight-Line-footworks it wasn't really there, not in SP or LP. Though I doubt the massive GOE he got on his LP-Straighline is justified.
The PCS was strange, someone else already pointed out that Evan got less PCS for his LP last year, than he got this year. But the thing with Johnny's program is that the hard jumps are all at the beginning of his program - his triple axel is so good, can't he put one of them after the halfway-mark?
His LP seems like a security-program for me, something to increase his self-confidence. It is a good program, but it is - even combined with all the Johnny-artistry and liquid gold stuff - not really an outstanding program. He can make it a great performance (like yesterday) but it is nothing compared to the intensity of Otonal or the The Swan.
I think that is a great plan - hope Weir is reading!!!! But here's a question since I'm not great at the points thing - would he get more points substituting a 3Lutz for the 3Filp OR do you think there is an implicit pressure on men to do all 6 triples?? (I ask because he has a solid lutz).
MM - i'm not sure if this is reffering to my question but I immeditely caught the blunder after I posted....right, he has to do the lutz and flip or leave out a jumping pass (or do more doubles) OR change the axel combo...and then Georgia's good idea is gone. So PLEASE IGNORE MY STUPID QUESTION!!!
