Is there an active skater right now that can/will land a quintuple in their career?

[BlissfulSynergy]

Not learning jumps detracts from jumps.

LOL. I agree with those who more accurately point out that not learning good jump technique first is the main drawback to pushing the sport forward. It's more urgent to perfect technique and blade skills because that is the foundation to improving speed, ice coverage and jumping proficiency.

As the saying goes, learn to walk before learning to run and to jump.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

If possible, I'd love to see one. A good one. But with a cap of one per LP. Otherwise I agree. It's bound to make technical score/focus more lopsided than it already is.

LOL. Good luck actually being able to see what it looks like. The rotations would have to be so fast that our brains could barely register each turn. Much like sometimes certain quads and triples can play tricks on our eyes. For e.g., we mainly get the full effect of Malinin's quad-axel due to slo-mo replays.

 

[lariko]

LOL. I agree with those who more accurately point out that not learning good jump technique first is the main drawback to pushing the sport forward. It's more urgent to perfect technique and blade skills because that is the foundation to improving speed, ice coverage and jumping proficiency.

As the saying goes, learn to walk before learning to run and to jump.

Exactly, that’s why they obviously do it too, to the best of their ability. Some can get really good with it, some can’t, and that is what we see. Prohibiting or belittling ultra jumps is not going to change this. I dunno how it could be any more clear? But people still demand prohibition and speak so dismissively about the skaters who perform jumps. It just hurts.

 

[kolyadafan2002]

Exactly, that’s why they obviously do it too, to the best of their ability. Some can get really good with it, some can’t, and that is what we see. Prohibiting or belittling ultra jumps is not going to change this. I dunno how it could be any more clear? But people still demand prohibition and speak so dismissively about the skaters who perform jumps. It just hurts.

I'm not for prohibiting jumps, nor am I belittling them.
I just think there needs a system to more equally weight them, so that somebody with mediocre jumps and brilliant skating can match scores of somebody with mediocre skating and brilliant jumps.
Of course, those with brilliant jumps AND brilliant skating are those who are most desirable within the sport, but there needs to be space for those who are technically brilliant in jumps and not skating, and those brilliant in skating and not jumps.

They also need to correct the scoring of skating - with samarin scoring very close to Alievs PCS in many competitions in the past which is just ridiculous. The fact that it's limited to 100points, and then the majority of skaters score 80+, limits PCS differentiation to 20points. That's the issue. Judges shouldn't be afraid to give senior skaters 50points PCS - they really shouldn't. The lack of differentiation is a huge problem.

It's the same as quality differentiation. When you have Aliev and Grassl scoring a similar amount on a 4Lz as Boyang Jin, you never really are rewarding quality.

Allowing only 1 quint in a program for example wouldn't be any different to having only 7 jumps in the program. Or having only one step sequence. It just puts it to quality differentiation. Similarly 3 spins vs 7 quads. Are spins worth anything? Are good spinners rewarded. Nathan chen would have all spins thrown out and in most cases it wouldn't matter vs other skaters who still have nice quads as well as nice spins.

 

[lariko]

Allowing only 1 quint in a program for example wouldn't be any different to having only 7 jumps in the program.

It’s different. Everyone can do 7 jumps and they do what they can and what doesn’t break repetition rules. If a skater can do a program with 5 quints, all of them different, there is no reason to prohibit that except for ‘we hate quints’.

Cha, Vasiljiev and Brown already belong to the subpar jumping content but good skating skills who are rewarded higher than skaters with above average jumping content, but lower skating skill like Grassl or Ignatov

The PCS/GOE scoring is a different conversation that has nothing to do with the jumps. They can be assigned incorrectly for any level of jumping content. And that happens as well, look at Kvitelashvili or Levito or Usacheva or Kagiyama or Miura/Kihara. Their scores are grossly exaggerated without any advanced content.

On the other hand, Grassl doesn’t get any extras despite more complicated jumping content (and personal flair spins, btw)

Dissing or prohibiting jumps will have zero impact on the bias scoring.

 

[Warwick360]

LOL. Good luck actually being able to see what it looks like. The rotations would have to be so fast that our brains could barely register each turn. Much like sometimes certain quads and triples can play tricks on our eyes. For e.g., we mainly get the full effect of Malinin's quad-axel due to slo-mo replays.

I get what you mean. For me it's the Kevin Reynolds effect. As much as I liked his AC/DC program, I always used to feel like my eyes played tricks on me when he used to go for his jumps. Thankfully, that seems less so these days.

For me, unless I am misreading what the other commentator just wrote, it's not trying to dismiss someone's physical abilities. It's just wanting to see if it is possible, and only proceed when one can prove it to be possible. Trying to make everyone leap off a cliff without seeing the long term effects (or sometimes even a season or two) of such attempts just seems fool hardy to say the least.

 

[kolyadafan2002]

Cha, Vasiljiev and Brown already belong to the subpar jumping content but good skating skills who are rewarded higher than skaters with above average jumping content, but lower skating skill like Grassl or Ignatov

The PCS/GOE scoring is a different conversation that has nothing to do with the jumps. They can be assigned incorrectly for any level of jumping content. And that happens as well, look at Kvitelashvili or Levito or Usacheva or Kagiyama or Miura/Kihara. Their scores are grossly exaggerated without any advanced content..

The second paragraph I quoted is kind of the point I'm making. PCS is 100-bound, and almost everybody is given 80points+ on PCS limiting maximum PCS advantage for night and day given within 20points. That's why PCS needs to change when given higher technical contents (as well as spins and step sequences).

The lowest PCS was 72 or something at worlds 2022. And compared to Yumas 93, that program shouldn't be anywhere close. In terms of skating skills, for me it's the equivalent of double jumps vs quad jumps in level of difference.

 

[gkelly]

Right now quints are not included in the Scale of Values so there is no reward for them.

They're not "banned" but they would be a big waste of energy considering they earn no points.

If we think adding them to the SoV would push the sport forward, I ask, why not also add ways of giving more points for other types of jump difficulty that are also not rewarded:

Multiple revolutions from walley and inside axel takeoffs

Rewards for putting quads at the ends of combinations

Rewards for true combinations with jumps in both directions (i.e., lutz or toe walley as second jump)

Rewards for jump sequences in which a single edge change or turn is permitted between two jumps to allow salchow, toe loop, loop, flip, or axel in the opposite direction as the second jump

(Or axel or inside axel in the same direction, after a three turn from the previous landing -- much harder than the step forward to axel that is now currently the only sequence allowed and now earns as much credit as a true combination)



All of these would also add difficulty to jump content in ways that not every senior skater will be able to accomplish. Maybe the ability to do triple-triple combos and sequences in both directions would be just as rare as the ability to do quads at all (or triple axels for women). Maybe there would be a handful of skaters who can do both kinds of difficulty and larger subsets who can do either one or the other.

If we want to find out, and to push the limits of what's possible in ice jumping, I would suggest adding the individual elements that do not currently have base values (quints, double and triple walley, double and triple inside axel) to the SoV and adding rules for appropriately rewarding the difficult combinations and sequences of the sorts I mentioned above.

Then have an ice jumping competition that encourages skaters to include these elements to see how difficult it is to master each of these skills.

Maybe a separate program, 2-3 minutes, with 3 or 4 jump elements (and no spins or step sequences or choreographic elements -- maybe no music), in which skaters may include a maximum of
1 quad axel or any quint
1 solo walley or inside axel (double or triple)
1 double-quad or triple-quad combination
1 combination with jumps in both directions (double, triple, or quad)
1 jump sequence with only one edge change or one-foot turn between the takeoff of the first jump and landing of the second, as described above

That's 5 different kinds of ultra jump difficulty. If there are 3 or 4 jump slots available, maybe some prodigies would be able to fill all their slots with ultra elements. Others may be able to include only one or two of the ultra types and could fill their other slot(s) with normal triples or double axel.

Make these official ISU competitions so the first skater who successfully completes any of these elements in such a competition goes into the history books as the first.

It would probably take a few years to see how difficult each of these types of skills really are compared to each other and adjust the base values/scoring bonuses accordingly.

Then make these options available for the well-balanced free program as well, maybe with limits on how many may be included.


For the well-balanced free skate, I would also like to see rewards in PCS (probably not specified in the summary PCS charts but mentioned as an option in judge training) for placing two or more jump elements (solo jumps or combos/sequences) in close proximity linked only by hops, steps, and turns as an example of linking elements together

 

[gkelly]

The second paragraph I quoted is kind of the point I'm making. PCS is 100-bound, and almost everybody is given 80points+ on PCS limiting maximum PCS advantage for night and day given within 20points. That's why PCS needs to change when given higher technical contents (as well as spins and step sequences).

The lowest PCS was 72 or something at worlds 2022. And compared to Yumas 93, that program shouldn't be anywhere close. In terms of skating skills, for me it's the equivalent of double jumps vs quad jumps in level of difference.

Other than increasing the PCS factors, do you have any suggestions on how to increase the scoring gaps appropriately?

Keeping in mind that the weakest program at Worlds might be one of the strongest ones at a non-Challenger senior B event. And the weakest at a senior B might be fairly strong compared to the field at a typical large JPG or other junior international.

I.e., we shouldn't be giving 2s and 3s for skaters who are currently earning 5s and 6s, because then those low scores wouldn't be available for skaters whose skills are really much lower than average senior level.

But through factoring,


We'll have to see whether having only 3 components really does inspire judges to score the components very differently for the same performance where warranted.

 

[lariko]

The second paragraph I quoted is kind of the point I'm making. PCS is 100-bound, and almost everybody is given 80points+ on PCS limiting maximum PCS advantage for night and day given within 20points. That's why PCS needs to change when given higher technical contents (as well as spins and step sequences).

The lowest PCS was 72 or something at worlds 2022. And compared to Yumas 93, that program shouldn't be anywhere close. In terms of skating skills, for me it's the equivalent of double jumps vs quad jumps in level of difference.

PCS is that way because it is prorated to what most people do in technical content score, not the outliers. If you equate PCS with max possible TES, TES for most skaters will become undervalued, and the whole system will deteriorate into politicking over PCS, because TES will become irrelevant. That’s the danger of a collegially judged sport. My mom hates a skater, I don’t mind them, someone adores them… so mom will score them 5 for gliding, I would go with 7 and the adoring fan will go with 10.

One thing for sure, the less acrimony and less ‘forbid it!’ is there toward the skaters, independently where their talents lie, the better.

 

[kolyadafan2002]

Other than increasing the PCS factors, do you have any suggestions on how to increase the scoring gaps appropriately?

Keeping in mind that the weakest program at Worlds might be one of the strongest ones at a non-Challenger senior B event. And the weakest at a senior B might be fairly strong compared to the field at a typical large JPG or other junior international.

I.e., we shouldn't be giving 2s and 3s for skaters who are currently earning 5s and 6s, because then those low scores wouldn't be available for skaters whose skills are really much lower than average senior level.

But through factoring,


We'll have to see whether having only 3 components really does inspire judges to score the components very differently for the same performance where warranted.

In seminars, we were always told PCS was set by the maximum level of skaters.
This filters down through every competition - Level 1 skaters should, theoretically, be judged in comparison to Shoma Uno. It shouldn't matter what competition people are at. That's why young skaters at small competitions are prone to (and should consistently be getting) below 2's in PCS criteria.
This for me is the inherant problem with PCS.
Because if the bottom level skaters who struggle to skate nicely get 1-2, then novice level skaters have to get more than that, and Advanced Novice marked higher, then junior marked higher, leaving very little space at the top, especially with rising junior inflafion. (Although some juniors are better than seniors)


If they really want to change it, rather than addressing scale factor they should add wider range (e.g. a 12 point scale instead of a 10 point scale). Alternatively they should look to stop comparing skaters to the same international standard (the best in the world), and rather compare appropriate to the level they skate at adjusting PCS with scale factor.

 

[AxelLover]

They also need to correct the scoring of skating - with samarin scoring very close to Alievs PCS in many competitions in the past which is just ridiculous. The fact that it's limited to 100points, and then the majority of skaters score 80+, limits PCS differentiation to 20points. That's the issue. Judges shouldn't be afraid to give senior skaters 50points PCS - they really shouldn't. The lack of differentiation is a huge problem.

It's the same as quality differentiation. When you have Aliev and Grassl scoring a similar amount on a 4Lz as Boyang Jin, you never really are rewarding quality.

This!

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

Exactly, that’s why they obviously do it too, to the best of their ability. Some can get really good with it, some can’t, and that is what we see. Prohibiting or belittling ultra jumps is not going to change this. I dunno how it could be any more clear? But people still demand prohibition and speak so dismissively about the skaters who perform jumps. It just hurts.

I don't see anyone 'belittling ultra jumps.' And fans don't have the power to prohibit anything in figure skating. Fans will always have their preferences when it comes to the skaters they favor. It's best not to be too sensitive or emotional about the critiques of skaters by fans you don't agree with.

It's fine for fans to find multiple rotations exciting. It's been fun to witness Ilia's amazing quad axels. But such jumping advances are not the be-all and end-all of what fs is about.

I don't see anyone putting down quads. It's more about understanding the importance of blade skills, and the fact that becoming a well-rounded skater involves a great deal more than jumps. I think most fans with years of following the sport, tend to have a broader perspective on the sport's trajectory. Jumps are important, but it's not all about the jumps.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

PCS is that way because it is prorated to what most people do in technical content score, not the outliers. If you equate PCS with max possible TES, TES for most skaters will become undervalued, and the whole system will deteriorate into politicking over PCS, because TES will become irrelevant. That’s the danger of a collegially judged sport. My mom hates a skater, I don’t mind them, someone adores them… so mom will score them 5 for gliding, I would go with 7 and the adoring fan will go with 10.

One thing for sure, the less acrimony and less ‘forbid it!’ is there toward the skaters, independently where their talents lie, the better.

This 100%. Thanks to TES under IJS, judges are less empowered to award marks based on playing favourites because a technically strong skater has the ability to beat putative faves who score huge PCS even if they have major errors because they’re more popular or considered better skaters.

Artistic skaters are always welcome to upgrade their technical game.

If you give PCS and GOE more credence you end up getting some of the scoring shenanigans we see in ice dance, where TES is capped (heck even levels are called high for the “best” teams even when they mess up).

A jump however is absolute, and a judge can’t “save” a skater - even a top skater doubling a quad or triple will not get those points.

 

[4everchan]

This 100%. Thanks to TES under IJS, judges are less empowered to award marks based on playing favourites because a technically strong skater has the ability to beat putative faves who score huge PCS even if they have major errors because they’re more popular or considered better skaters.

Artistic skaters are always welcome to upgrade their technical game.

If you give PCS and GOE more credence you end up getting some of the scoring shenanigans we see in ice dance, where TES is capped (heck even levels are called high for the “best” teams even when they mess up).

A jump however is absolute, and a judge can’t “save” a skater - even a top skater doubling a quad or triple will not get those points.

this is true in theory. Some popular skaters get benefit of the doubt on rotation, edge quality, and jump posture, quality of landing etc...

 

[lariko]

I don't see anyone putting down quads

What do you call people showing up with immediate ‘forbid it!’ and ‘other elements must be valued more!’ and ‘no, no, please, no. Jumps are already overvalued’ and, oh! My personal favorite, ‘Nathan doesn’t even have to do spins!’ when all people want to have fun discussing who can potentially land a quintuple jump? Like, why are those ‘concerns’ needed in this thread that is obviously dedicated to fun with ultra content jumps? Like, why, why, why do people need to ruin others’ fun with their ‘concerns’? Why can’t people just talk about jumps and if they don’t like jumps, go and discuss something else they actually like in some other place? It’s a large forum.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

What do you call people showing up with immediate ‘forbid it!’ and ‘other elements must be valued more!’ and ‘no, no, please, no. Jumps are already overvalued’ and, oh! My personal favorite, ‘Nathan doesn’t even have to do spins!’ when all people want to have fun discussing who can potentially land a quintuple jump? Like, why are those ‘concerns’ needed in this thread that is obviously dedicated to fun with ultra content jumps? Like, why, why, why do people need to ruin others’ fun with their ‘concerns’? Why can’t people just talk about jumps and if they don’t like jumps, go and discuss something else they actually like in some other place? It’s a large forum.

Such an OTT reaction. People are expressing their opinions, and there will always be a variety of opinions, particularly when discussing figure skating. You can have all the fun you want discussing the possibility of quints. It's not something that will be happening anytime soon, if ever. Why? Because the physics of being able to jump high enough and to turn fast enough before hitting the ice are against this being able to happen unless something changes: to skaters' bodies; to the advances in boots and blades; or to the ice surface, etc.

I think it's more realistic to discuss the actual scientific research that's been done to date examining the physical possibility of quints. Also, it's worthwhile IMO to think about skaters' body structure in relation to the ability to achieve sufficient amplitude and fast rotations. One scientific article some years ago, indicated that skaters would need to have bodies resembling pencils in order to turn in the air fast enough. So, I guess it's not surprising that so far the only person to successfully land a quad-axel (1/2 rotation away from a quint) has long slim legs and a thin body structure. He also has great amplitude and lightning fast rotations.

I find your reference to 'ultra' jumps odd. But if that's your favorite word to describe what doesn't yet exist, maybe it might catch on within the skating community at some point. I believe the current general reference for multiple rotation jumps is 'advanced' jumps, or jumps with greater technical difficulty. But if 'advanced' sounds too boring, 'ultra' sounds odd to my ears.

At the moment since a 'quint' has never been achieved, it's not really part of the viable vocabulary. So, right now, 'impossible', 'far out', 'super duper uber', 'never seen before', 'fantastical', 'insane', or even 'twilight zone', might be more apropos when referencing quints.

 

[Kris135]

I wouldn't be surprised if Malinin is already training quintuples.

I feel though that the ISU should step in and forbid them. The evolution of figure skating needs to be something else than just more difficult jumps.

I would not forbid them for the seniors if they want go for it let them. I would like to have some limits placed on junior level skaters because of the arms race for bigger and bigger jumps at younger ages. Look at the Russian girls, I am sorry these young girls are not women yet, almost all of them are trying quads and qunits before their skating skills and their bodies are ready for them. Look at the track record almost all of them quit by 20 years and have terrible injuries that means that they can not skate anymore. Etteri needs to be banned period for what she has done to these girls and since Russia will not stop her maybe the ISU should. Raising age limit may help but limiting some of the huge jumps on such small bodies will help as well so these skaters will careers that last beyond their teens.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

I'm sure we're only a few years out from having a half dozen guys all have a quad axel in their arsenal

We are not a few years out from six guys all having a quad-axel. This will not be the case for a number of reasons. Not everyone is going to have the ability to master a quad-axel. It's still difficult enough for many male skaters to consistently land technically sound 3-axels.

Plus, the men's field, especially top and up-and-coming phenoms, are still trying to master four revolutions on all the basic jumps, while ensuring sound technique on their 3-axels.

The axel is considered the most difficult jump in figure skating. It does not come easily for everyone. The men who are flirting with training quad-axels are most likely guys who have excellent 3-axels.

It's going to be important to see how Ilia does with smoothly incorporating the quad-axel in his competitive performances, as well as in his training (both regular training and injury preventive training). I don't think he'll be throwing quad axels around liberally in his programs. He's gotta be strategic and pace himself, as well as spend time on improving other aspects of his skating.

After Dick Button landed the first triple jump (the loop) in competition in 1952, it took about 35+ years before quad jumps started being successfully landed, and then another 15 to 20 years b/f quads became better established. And even then, officials botched the process of figuring out how to value quads in the scoring system.

More directly relevant to Button landing the first ever triple, it took around 30+ years after 1952 before triples on all the jumps were widely mastered and incorporated into the skating disciplines. BTW, Button also landed the first double axel in 1948. The first male skater to land a successful 3-axel in competition was Vern Taylor, of Canada, in 1978. How many fans know that? I had to look it up. Of course, everybody knows Dick Button, but that's largely because he became a familiar face in fs broadcasting and event creation and production. Plus, Button contributed so much to the sport. He invented the flying camel spin, which used to be called the Button camel. We should all know a lot more about all of the wonderful pioneers of figure skating. I make time to read Ryan Stevens' Skateguard blog. He's a skating historian, and a former Canadian competitor.

My point is that in talking about quints, it's important first to understand the trajectory of jump development. If we don't connect our enthusiasm over jumping advancements with the actual trajectory of jump development in the sport, then we're not speaking from fact-based knowledge. Without being interested in the sport's history, or looking into what boot manufacturers are doing to help lessen the harsh impacts on skaters' joints, etc., then we are just shooting the breeze, without making a lot of sense. That's fine too. But I think it's more helpful to the growth of the sport, and to my own enjoyment to try and bring a greater understanding of what the sport is about to my fandom-based discussions.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

I would not forbid them for the seniors if they want go for it let them. I would like to have some limits placed on junior level skaters because of the arms race for bigger and bigger jumps at younger ages. Look at the Russian girls, I am sorry these young girls are not women yet, almost all of them are trying quads and qunits before their skating skills and their bodies are ready for them. Look at the track record almost all of them quit by 20 years and have terrible injuries that means that they can not skate anymore. Etteri needs to be banned period for what she has done to these girls and since Russia will not stop her maybe the ISU should. Raising age limit may help but limiting some of the huge jumps on such small bodies will help as well so these skaters will careers that last beyond their teens.

If Ilia is doing anything regarding quints, he's just experimenting and playing around. He's not seriously focused on quints. Like Nathan Chen said, "It's not worth it right now." At this point, it's not even viable. Again, walk before running, i.e., Ilia and many other men need to be enhancing their blade skills, polishing the finer aspects of their skating, and being more focused on consistently developing all of the quad jumps, without losing focus on being fully rounded as a skater.