2022 MK John Wilson Trophy Men's Free Skate

[susandwyer]

Italian GOLD then... congrats Daniel

Well deserved win for Daniel!

 

[susandwyer]

why. does. this. happen. for him????

He doesn’t take his skating seriously enough. Needs a stricter coach
If he wants to move up. More off ice training.

 

[TontoK]

I was thinking after Roman Sadovsky's gorgeous SP yesterday that he puts me in mind of how I (and so many others) felt about Tarasova and Morozov until last year. Their skating, technique, everything was so pristine that it elevated their programs ... but they couldn't seem to put two programs together.

Roman is sort of like that. There's nothing more beautiful than his skating. The purity of it is exquisite ... plus he's got the artistry, the ability to touch the emotions of the spectators, the musical sensitivity. I keep hoping.

I was out of pocket yesterday, so checked in this morning to see if he held it together after winning the short. Really, I should have known better.

But I'll say this. That program was beautiful. Except for the elements.

 

[snowflake]

He doesn’t take his skating seriously enough. Needs a stricter coach
If he wants to move up. More off ice training.

Hmmm... how do you know? Could be lots of reasons...

 

[el henry]

He doesn’t take his skating seriously enough. Needs a stricter coach
If he wants to move up. More off ice training.

How do you know that? What specifically do you think is lacking in his off ice training? Why would an elite athlete need a "stricter" coach?

that is rarely an issue for skaters at Roman's level, but I don't know Roman's training situation.

 

[Flying Feijoa]

How do you know that? What specifically do you think is lacking in his off ice training? Why would an elite athlete need a "stricter" coach?

that is rarely an issue for skaters at Roman's level, but I don't know Roman's training situation.

Indeed, based on what he said in the video, training was going very well leading up to this competition.

Most of us who follow Roman understand it's a psychological issue rather than physical (case in point: his short programme was great). He gets nervous under pressure - the opposite of 'not taking it seriously enough'.

 

[TontoK]

Indeed, based on what he said in the video, training was going very well leading up to this competition.

Most of us who follow Roman understand it's a psychological issue rather than physical (case in point: his short programme was great). He gets nervous under pressure - the opposite of 'not taking it seriously enough'.

All of this is true.

On the other hand, there's really not much point in continuing along the same path that is yielding these types of competitive efforts. It's not like this is a one off.

He has to change something - coaching, sports psychologist, environment.... or he (and we) shouldn't expect anything different.

Of course, his comfort zone in the current situation may be more important to him than competitive results. And that's a perfectly reasonable stance. It's about choices, and these are his to make.

 

[el henry]

All of this is true.

On the other hand, there's really not much point in continuing along the same path that is yielding these types of competitive efforts. It's not like this is a one off.

He has to change something - coaching, sports psychologist, environment.... or he (and we) shouldn't expect anything different.

Of course, his comfort zone in the current situation may be more important to him than competitive results. And that's a perfectly reasonable stance. It's about choices, and these are his to make.

I think most observers are very frustrated by Romsky's talent and his results. But we have no idea if it's related to his "comfort zone", and certainly not from failure to work or train to his limits (related to the other post). From what I can see, Roman pushes himself, tries different elements, goes to the limit.

Maybe he needs *more* of a comfort zone, not less. From my personal experience, pushing yourself too hard is just as harmful as not pushing yourself enough. Changing for the sake of change (ETA: for example a coach) is just as bad as not changing. But that's just my experience, which is meaningless for anyone else.

Whatever he needs, I hope he finds it.

Jumping off, I am also troubled about Tomoki's seemingly diminishing results. Whatever he needs, I hope he finds too.

 

[TontoK]

I think most observers are very frustrated by Romsky's talent and his results. But we have no idea if it's related to his "comfort zone", and certainly not from failure to work or train to his limits (related to the other post). From what I can see, Roman pushes himself, tries different elements, goes to the limit.

Maybe he needs *more* of a comfort zone, not less. From my personal experience, pushing yourself too hard is just as harmful as not pushing yourself enough. Changing for the sake of change is just as bad as not changing. But that's just my experience, which is meaningless for anyone else.

Whatever he needs, I hope he finds it.

Jumping off, I am also troubled about Tomoki's seemingly diminishing results. Whatever he needs, I hope he finds too.

Whatever he needs to improve his consistency, he's not getting it and he hasn't been getting it for years.

That's not being judgmental; that is objectively clear from his results.

Raw talent and wasted potential.

And I'm in complete agreement regarding Tomoki, in whom I confess I've lost interest.

US Men need a healthy Torgeshev to return.

 

[el henry]

Whatever he needs to improve his consistency, he's not getting it and he hasn't been getting it for years.

That's not being judgmental; that is objectively clear from his results.

Raw talent and wasted potential.

And I'm in complete agreement regarding Tomoki, in whom I confess I've lost interest.

US Men need a healthy Torgeshev to return.

I believe we are in agreement my friend.

I think Roman's issue is psychological, which is easy to say and difficult to fix (I know I'm not saying anything you don't already know). It's easier to say, my axel technique is terrible, let's fix it. How do you address, I just don't perform well under pressure? If I knew, I would sell it and make a lot of money.

Andrew T. will be at Nats. He's actually a good example, a few years ago went to a new coach that everyone thinks is a wonderful coach, but not a lot of change in results. Let us hope he gets healthier and better

 

[4everchan]

Performance anxiety can take a long time to get over... and it is with more and more experience, that Roman and others will get better.
It is difficult because it is with competing that one will gain experience, and with experience, comes confidence to compete.
So, Roman is doing exactly what he needs to be doing. Competing. Sometimes he does better ... sometimes not.
Winning the short program was probably not something he expected or at least, used to.... but that is a new experience acquired... not doing well in the free after feeling this pressure, that's relatively new for him. Next event, he will know that 1) he can win the SP at a GP. 2) there is still a lot of work to do to have a successful competition.

In my field, we sometimes say that stage anxiety will go away after 100 performances haha... For figure skaters, especially Canadians since 2020, there haven't been many opportunities to perform. That's probably why some coaches impose so many run-throughs on their skaters... to try replicating the experience in performance.

I wish Skate Canada built a new culture of sending out its skaters more often. I feel that they are thinking mostly about one aspect of performance anxiety : readiness ... When a performer is not ready, there is very little chance they will manage anxiety.. how could they, knowing that they are not ready to compete... This can happen early in the season or after an injury break.. .or with newer elements...or with younger skaters... Skate Canada tends to protect the skaters to minimize the dangers of a bad performance.. But that's only one part of it, and that's easier to control as it is only related to the performer.... (something that a skater can control)... What cannot be controlled by the performer is the context/ environment... (for instance, fans being loud, must place well event to qualify for Olympics, other competitors doing so well, the ranking after the SP, the ice quality, the judges). The performance anxiety related to the outside factors can take much longer to solve... some never find a consistent solution... (Josée Chouinard, one of my favourites... never found her comfort zone until turning pro). It is with the experience to trust and rely on their training (that's why we hear this sentence so often... it's just true) that skaters will be able to replicate what they do in training. But, if the fed is over-protecting the athletes... to deal with the first factor linked to performance anxiety, they do not help enough with the second factor...

The issue with mastering performance anxiety is that the learning curve is extremely variable from individual to individual... and it's never something one can take for granted. I hope Roman will find his comfort zone.

 

[lariko]

Hiwatashi and Annis need some sort of a get together… rehub… snow from Chen’s boots… I understand cactus concept, but those two are particularly frustrating.

 

[yesterday]

Performance anxiety can take a long time to get over... and it is with more and more experience, that Roman and others will get better.
It is difficult because it is with competing that one will gain experience, and with experience, comes confidence to compete.
So, Roman is doing exactly what he needs to be doing. Competing. Sometimes he does better ... sometimes not.
Winning the short program was probably not something he expected or at least, used to.... but that is a new experience acquired... not doing well in the free after feeling this pressure, that's relatively new for him. Next event, he will know that 1) he can win the SP at a GP. 2) there is still a lot of work to do to have a successful competition.

In my field, we sometimes say that stage anxiety will go away after 100 performances haha... For figure skaters, especially Canadians since 2020, there haven't been many opportunities to perform. That's probably why some coaches impose so many run-throughs on their skaters... to try replicating the experience in performance.

I wish Skate Canada built a new culture of sending out its skaters more often. I feel that they are thinking mostly about one aspect of performance anxiety : readiness ... When a performer is not ready, there is very little chance they will manage anxiety.. how could they, knowing that they are not ready to compete... This can happen early in the season or after an injury break.. .or with newer elements...or with younger skaters... Skate Canada tends to protect the skaters to minimize the dangers of a bad performance.. But that's only one part of it, and that's easier to control as it is only related to the performer.... (something that a skater can control)... What cannot be controlled by the performer is the context/ environment... (for instance, fans being loud, must place well event to qualify for Olympics, other competitors doing so well, the ranking after the SP, the ice quality, the judges). The performance anxiety related to the outside factors can take much longer to solve... some never find a consistent solution... (Josée Chouinard, one of my favourites... never found her comfort zone until turning pro). It is with the experience to trust and rely on their training (that's why we hear this sentence so often... it's just true) that skaters will be able to replicate what they do in training. But, if the fed is over-protecting the athletes... to deal with the first factor linked to performance anxiety, they do not help enough with the second factor...

The issue with mastering performance anxiety is that the learning curve is extremely variable from individual to individual... and it's never something one can take for granted. I hope Roman will find his comfort zone.

A final look overall shows that his two GPs felt and developed totally different but in fact placement- and score-wise they are suprisingly not so different. That's the sport we all love

 

[4everchan]

A final look overall shows that his two GPs felt and developed totally different but in fact placement- and score-wise they are suprisingly not so different. That's the sport we all love

The experience is certainly different. Hopefully, he learns from both events. One thing to keep in mind when looking to minimize performance anxiety is not to look at placement and results but focus on what one can control, as well as focus on work and evolution. Thinking about results is one of the biggest enemies.

 

[yesterday]

The experience is certainly different. Hopefully, he learns from both events. One thing to keep in mind when looking to minimize performance anxiety is not to look at placement and results but focus on what one can control, as well as focus on work and evolution. Thinking about results is one of the biggest enemies.

Of course! I don't want him to do it, I just did because I looked up something else.
But that point is important. I think it's something Deniss did from SCI to MKJWT.

I feel they could benefit so much from each other. They are both tall, strong on PCS, work on a consistent 4S and plan 4T and have their (similar?) downs and (similar?) difficulties. Not to mention age and long term plans.

 

[4everchan]

Of course! I don't want him to do it, I just did because I looked up something else.
But that point is important. I think it's something Deniss did from SCI to MKJWT.

I feel they could benefit so much from each other. They are both tall, strong on PCS, work on a consistent 4S and plan 4T and have their (similar?) downs and (similar?) difficulties. Not to mention age and long term plans.

sounds like you are about to write fan fiction about them

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

He doesn’t take his skating seriously enough. Needs a stricter coach
If he wants to move up. More off ice training.

I was so disappointed for Roman. I kept saying, "Fight , fight for it!" But he just had another meltdown on the jumping passes. A lot of guys made mistakes here. Daniel had a fall on a quad too, but he didn't let it affect his other jumps. Plus, Daniel often receives overly high GOE on wild looking jumps, especially on take-off and in the air.

It was not so much about Roman needing to win here. But this was a rare opportunity to try and overcome what has plagued Roman repeatedly. I do not think his problems have anything to do with not being serious about his skating. He's dedicated and AFAIK, he does train hard. His problems seem related to his inability to successfully manage nerves in high pressure situations. The COVID setbacks didn't help. Not having 2020 Canadian Nationals wasn't helpful either. And there's been some recent distractions too for Roman and his family regarding the war in Ukraine, where they have relatives.

Still, all of that aside, in skating you don't get many opportunities to make important strides. Again, it wasn't so much about winning, as it was showing up and at least staying on the podium. Yes, Roman probably hasn't dealt internationally with waiting and being the last to skate with the chance to win. But those opportunities should be relished.

For this reason, I was so impressed with how well Deniss V performed. He was solid and very prepared. He'd had a poor outing at his last event, and he seemed stoked here to turn that outcome around, which was great to see. Deniss reached some wonderful milestones last season too, so he's proven to himself what he can do. Stephane prepared Deniss well too for this latest challenge. So kudos!

Roman is probably technically stronger on the quads and 3-axels than Deniss. But they both are exceptionally gifted aesthetically. Meanwhile, Daniel doesn't have very sound technique, despite his ability to rotate quickly. Plus, Daniel is not as aesthetically pleasing as a performer, although he tries hard and he's very motivated, in addition to getting scoring help from the judges (seemingly related to Italian political clout). So, it's a nice win for Daniel, and I'm happy for Deniss executing so well. It was nice to see Deniss' smile.

Back to Roman: I don't think his coach, Tracey Wainman, isn't strict. We can't judge coaching dynamics by kiss 'n cry interactions. I do think that she appears to be a comforting, motherly figure. That doesn't negate her being strict though. Her husband, former Polish skater, Grzegorz Filipowski, also coaches Roman. At this point, Roman has been with Wainman since he was very young, and some people probably feel he does need to switch. I don't think he necessarily needs to dump his coaches though. Moreso, it might be helpful to bring in some other voices and different advice. Roman definitely needs to approach some things differently, obviously. Getting the same disappointing results calls for some serious self-reflection. I wonder how Skate Canada feels at this point. Everyone knows Roman is exceptionally talented. But the perception will likely be that they can't trust him in high pressure situations, if something doesn't turn around soon.

I would suggest that Roman speak to some past Canadian champions. Seek some mental focus advice from Tracy Wilson, Brian Orser, and Ravi Walia. Plus check out Paul Wylie's revealing presentation on YouTube, where he discusses overcoming performance nerves and his 10-year career mental challenges to nearly win Olympic gold in 1992.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

Hiwatashi and Annis need some sort of a get together… rehub… snow from Chen’s boots… I understand cactus concept, but those two are particularly frustrating.

Sometimes for skaters who are inconsistent, it's about battling back from injuries and resulting loss of confidence and momentum. Often, bad habits in performance can begin to set in. Then it becomes about motivation and lack of sufficient quantity of opportunities to try and turn things around.

In Roman's case, it does seem to be about performance anxiety and a confluence of training and competition challenges, along with the major life event distractions everyone has been experiencing. I think @4everchan has made some great points regarding recent challenges for Canadian skaters. Roman has addressed some of his challenges on his YouTube channel. He's very talented, and he has a light-hearted sense of humor. But he also strikes me as serious about his skating. There have been training and scheduling challenges at Roman's rink, associated with COVID. Plus, he wasn't prepared to compete the team event at the Olympics, which was last minute. It seemed to adversely affect him mentally. So, it's important that Roman address all of these issues and not just push it all aside thinking he's okay and it's all dealt with, when maybe it's not.

 

[4everchan]

I would suggest that Roman speak to some past Canadian champions. Seek some mental focus advice from Tracy Wilson, Brian Orser, and Ravi Walia. Plus check out Paul Wylie's revealing presentation on YouTube, where he discusses overcoming performance nerves and his 10-year career mental challenges to nearly win Olympic gold in 1992.

Roman trained at the Toronto Cricket Club in the 2016-17 season before coming back to Wainman. It doesn't appear as training with Orser was what he needed/wanted. I doubt he would switch coaches at this point...but if he did, I'd suggest he tries out training far away from home. Just for some new experiences... sometimes that helps resetting patterns, and can be helpful for people with performance anxiety.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

^^ Yes, doing something different to change things up is important. Of course, that doesn't necessarily mean changing coaches. But yes, changing the scenery and changing his approach can be helpful as a reset. Developing new mental strategies seems to be of utmost importance. Roman needs to look at everything. Surely, he's talked with a sports psychologist. If he hasn't, he needs to. If he has, he may need to try someone new. This is not about panicking. It's about acknowledging there are problems he needs to address that require proactive attention.

Again, checking out Paul Wylie's insightful presentation might be inspirational. Wylie was proactive. He wanted to make the 1992 Olympic team and it wasn't a given that he would. The U.S. federation knew Wylie was talented, but they weren't eager to reward him. I think Wylie should have won U.S. Nats in '90 and '91, but he came in second behind a young gun known for his jumps, Todd Eldredge.

The U.S. federation didn't appear to have a lot of faith in Wylie. But he persevered and he began to uncover and to understand his thought processes during competition situations. With the help of his therapist, Wylie ultimately developed positive mental strategies. Of course, he also worked on all aspects of his training and fitness. Wylie's experience relates not just to athletic endeavors, but is helpful for anyone facing difficult life challenges. It doesn't mean Wylie's specific situation and resolution works for everyone. It just provides pointers, examples, and inspiration for others to tackle their mental roadblocks.

From Pathetic to Podium - Paul Wylie

Olympic silver medalist Paul Wylie shared his inspiring story of resilience and challenged us all to know our purpose in life.

youtu.be