Components from 5 to 3: has the change achieved its objectives?

[yesterday]

I mentioned in another post that a favourite program for my partner and me was the overture to Man of La Mancha. I suppose it's hackneyed for today's skaters, but it's a gift to any pair who has to come up with their own choreography in a hurry for some reason. There are other versions available, but in the original cast album's performance a pair's choreography is practically spelled out. In the first 30 seconds there are obvious climaxes for your twist lift and sbs jumps. At 1:05 there's a section for a nice spiral sequence. At 1:40, start your footwork sequence. 2:19, fit in a lift with changes of position. Your throw goes at 2:45, and your death spiral at 3:00. Around 3:33, your combination spin..... Add other ingredients as desired.

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Secret footage of program in the making:

 

[Blades of Passion]

The music of the soundtrack was inspired by Jewish musical idioms. Perlman himself, the violinist who did perform the theme said that John Williams's soundscape evoked the Jewish music of central Europe.

Obviously a composer who is creating music for a film is trying to capture what it's about. But music can be used for a variety of purposes, composers recycle musical themes all the time for totally different movies, and nobody who listens to a piece of music for the first time in isolation knows the exact "story" behind it. Do you think anyone who doesn't know about Home Alone and listens to that music is going to say "this music is definitely about a kid who was accidentally left behind by his family and is now trying to defend the house from robbers."

Please go ahead and tell me what story this music is about, or even just what location it portraying - https://soundcloud.com/user-118384911/mystery2

 

[Diana Delafield]

Secret footage of program in the making:

Yep, that was us in a choreography session. Him tossing off wild suggestions a Chinese circus acrobat couldn't have done, and me (in the ponytail and pink headband) writing it all down and thinking, "Yeah, sure, you and what other partner?!"

 

[Mathman]

With the amount of young women skating on greatest hits of opera, let's be thankful they don't all die on center ice... because many of the characters they portray do die on center stage in the operas

At 2002 Skate America Ann Patrice McDonough did Romeo and Juliet, She "won the practice," staying on the ice way longer than anyone else and rehersing the ending over and over with variations, consulting with her coach. She had two endings, one in which she stabbed herself and the other without. A buzz went trhough the (somewhat sparse but appreciative) crowd about which they preferred, and we couldn't wait to see which one she would go with.

She didn't stab herself and she won the silver medal.

 

[Mathman]

Artistry is mostly what PCS is supposed to be about.

I think there is something more to be said. When the then-new judging system was introduced in the early 2000s, there were two major, major, majpr differrences vis-a-vis the judging system that we had become accustomed to as "traditional." The first difference was obvious to everyone -- the idea of getting points for each trick that you did and whoever accumulated the most points wins.

But there was a second change of direction. In the old system skating was separated into "technicaal" and "artistic" -- the first mark and the second. In the IJS, that was thrown out and replaced by "individual elements" verses "program as a whole." That's why they called it "Program Comp[onents."

Transitions were assigne to "program as a whole." You did not earn two-tenths of a point for a rocker and 3-tenths for a 3-turn. Rather you got one score for all the transitions in the entire program lumped together. This gave judges the opportunity in priciple to reward skaters not only for "technical" display (number, difficulty and quality), but also for supporting the choreographic and musical structure of the program as a whole, etc.

Anyway, I think we have to be careful about conflating PCSs with the considerations that went into the old Second Mark.

 

[Mathman]

The big mistake that people make is to think that "objective" only means something like "counting"...

Thanks for the very thoughful and well-argued post.

But to me, ""objective" scoring in sports does mean "something like counting" or "omething like measuing." Are you higher, faster, stronger than the other guy?.

As they say in basketball, "ball don't lie." If your team scores 100 points and the other team scores 99, you win. (This does not, of course, stop basketball players and partisan fans from feeling that they were robbed by the referees when they lose -- that is universal in every sport.)

Figure skating obviously isn't "that kind of sport," but I wouldn't fault someone who claimed that judging in figure skating is "less objective" than in some other sports that are more easily counted and measured. In the example of "what does a room look like" the problem is not in determining whether vthe walls are green or pink, but in assigning a score that values pinkness over greenness.

 

[4everchan]

Thanks for the very thoughful and well-argued post.

But to me, ""objective" scoring in sports does mean "something like counting" or "omething like measuing." Are you higher, faster, stronger than the other guy?.

As they say in basketball, "ball don't lie." If your team scores 100 points and the other team scores 99, you win. (This does not, of course, stop basketball players and partisan fans from feeling that they were robbed by the referees when they lose -- that is universal in every sport.)

Figure skating obviously isn't "that kind of sport," but I wouldn't fault someone who claimed that judging in figure skating is "less objective" than in some other sports that are more easily counted and measured. In the example of "what does a room look like" the problem is not in determining whether vthe walls are green or pink, but in assigning a score that values pinkness over greenness.

objective scoring can be done both for quantitative and qualitative evaluation.

I am pretty sure it is objective to say that Patrick Chan's edges are superior to most. That's qualitative and objective... No counting.

 

[Diana Delafield]

Some people have suggested, the use of technology to have some part of the score based on actual date like speed, ice coverage, height of jumps, amplitude of jumps (distance traveled) etc. It would be interesting, imho, to see what kind of data could be measured and utilized efficiently to reward the best skaters.

I get uneasy when I see jumps or throws shown in the slow-motion replay with the height and distance measured. That is more often than not just the skater's instinctive style. In show-jumping and agility, you have horses and dogs who run low, take off from a distance, and soar long over an obstacle. Others run right up to the obstacle, pop up high, and come down tight on the other side. It's just their build, their genetics, their innate way to jump. Skaters are the same, although some correction can be taught if their own style is hampering their results. I still do single jumps up to the single Axel and I still take off early, hesitate until I'm on a straight flight path, and *then* do the revolution. My jump height was and is low, but my distance was pretty good when I was younger. Sorry if that bothers my coach, but if I try to revolve quickly the instant I take off, I get more height but no distance, go off track, and fall into the circle. I think high, tight revolutions look better and I wish I could do that, but I was a bit taller than most pairs skaters and my body needed time to get straightened out and balanced before I turned (if I can thus describe something that only takes a few seconds to do). I'd hate to see any move to give marks based on one preferred style no matter which it was.

 

[4everchan]

I get uneasy when I see jumps or throws shown in the slow-motion replay with the height and distance measured. That is more often than not just the skater's instinctive style. In show-jumping and agility, you have horses and dogs who run low, take off from a distance, and soar long over an obstacle. Others run right up to the obstacle, pop up high, and come down tight on the other side. It's just their build, their genetics, their innate way to jump. Skaters are the same, although some correction can be taught if their own style is hampering their results. I still do single jumps up to the single Axel and I still take off early, hesitate until I'm on a straight flight path, and *then* do the revolution. My jump height was and is low, but my distance was pretty good when I was younger. Sorry if that bothers my coach, but if I try to revolve quickly the instant I take off, I get more height but no distance, go off track, and fall into the circle. I think high, tight revolutions look better and I wish I could do that, but I was a bit taller than most pairs skaters and my body needed time to get straightened out and balanced before I turned (if I can thus describe something that only takes a few seconds to do). I'd hate to see any move to give marks based on one preferred style no matter which it was.

For sure... even in combos, often the first jump is a longer jump while the second is higher... (like Gabby Daleman's 3t-3t)
But there are ways to reward athletes who do a higher jump just as well as a longer jump... i guess there would be parameters where great distance in whatever direction gets some points.. I imagine also that some athletes may tick both the high and long boxes... as we can see with some axels for instance. It's all good... the point I am making is not about the details but the principle. Just a few years ago, tennis matches depended on line judges... not anymore... Everyone was saying the hawkeye system was way too costly to implement every where... well... many tournaments use it at this point...

 

[Mathman]

objective scoring can be done both for quantitative and qualitative evaluation.

I am pretty sure it is objective to say that Patrick Chan's edges are superior to most. That's qualitative and objective... No counting.

And yet, is it" objective" to say that Nathan Chen's edges are superior? Or is that a matter of subjective opinion? There seems to be a difference of opinion among knowledgable observers on this issue, while there is no debate about whether Nathan did 5 quads at the 2022 LP -- count the revolutions: one, two, ... twenty.

 

[4everchan]

And yet, is it" objective" to say that Nathan Chen's edges are superior? Or is that a matter of subjective opinion? There seems to be a difference of opinion among knowledgable observers on this issue, while there is no debate about whether Nathan did 5 quads at the 2022 LP -- count the revolutions: one, two, ... twenty.

Ermmm... i think that there are a lot of qualitative components that can be judged objectively. How do you think music competitions are judged? There are obviously things that are subjective but others that can be judged with the utmost objectivity. The issue is not if Patrick Chan or Nathan Chen have superior edges : experts would be able to rank them pretty acurately ... the issue resides in the simplest fact that judges have favourites just like fans do and instead of using objective markers, they use subjective ones. Some judges have more integrity than others

 

[el henry]

jumps and spins were always part of the sport... right now, some would argue that because the content managed by skaters is much higher, the components scores must be adjusted/factored to get even with the technical score...

For instance, if a skater manages a bunch of quads and his tech score can reach 130... why wouldn't a very good skater be able to earn 130 in PCS? It's capped at 100 (men). So that's a change in the scoring that would recognize the multifaceted nature of the sport. I am sure you would be happy about this too

The problem is that I'd be cautious with such a change because PCS judging contains already so much subjectivity... (GOE on elements too but it's more clearly defined with bullets)... So there is a balancing act with recognizing great skating (components) without making the sport more and more subjective.

Some people have suggested, the use of technology to have some part of the score based on actual date like speed, ice coverage, height of jumps, amplitude of jumps (distance traveled) etc. It would be interesting, imho, to see what kind of data could be measured and utilized efficiently to reward the best skaters.

Well, now that you mention it Capping PCS, when the other factors are not capped, does not seem right to me. So I would be good with "uncapping" as one option.

And to make clear (not that you said this, just jumping off) I do not hate jumps. I watched skating in an era when they were called "tricks": if a skater had an impressive jump, Dick Button would point out that he had all the "tricks". Tricks can be fun. They are one part of a well rounded skaters' arsenal.

I just don't see how we reduce subjectivity in judging without reducing what makes figure skating special. At least for me.

 

[Mathman]

The discussion about using artificial intelligence in figure skating judging is interesting to m because of how this topic has changed and evolved recently. We used to think of "technology" as meaning using high-speed cameras to record the exact number of degrees of revolution in a skater's so-called quad, or putting sensors on skaters' boots to determine what percentage of the ice surface is covered in a footwork sequence. Sort of in the same spirit as the Hawkeye System in tennis that detremines whether a ball is in or out.

However, AI is something altogether different. The most straight-forward way to design an AI judge for figure skating would be to feed in electronic videos of a million skating performances, together with the matrks given by human judges. The program would then analyze the programs in byte-sized detail and find the closest matches for various elements and moves, which then determine the score. (This is somewhat like AI programs that write your essay for college admission for you.)

There is actually a chess-playing program commercially available based on this idea. Traditional computer chess apps work by trying to decide which move is best according to various principles of the game as perceived by the programers in consultation with chess experts. The new approach goes like this. You enter the level of the oponent that you want to play against, say 2400 (senior master in the U.S.) Then when it is the computer's turn to move, it searches through its billion-game library and picks out a few thousand actual games pn which similar position were achieve. What did the human players do in these games, and how did it work out? That determines the computer's move.

What's fun about it is that you can play the same game against a master opponent and then against a lower-ranked player. It is very interesting to see what masters know about the game that the rest of us don't.

 

[4everchan]

Obviously a composer who is creating music for a film is trying to capture what it's about. But music can be used for a variety of purposes, composers recycle musical themes all the time for totally different movies, and nobody who listens to a piece of music for the first time in isolation knows the exact "story" behind it. Do you think anyone who doesn't know about Home Alone and listens to that music is going to say "this music is definitely about a kid who was accidentally left behind by his family and is now trying to defend the house from robbers."

Actually the home alone soundtrack is pretty telling... sorry to say but any musician can make sense of what John Williams is doing here.


At he beginning, one can hear bells, and some sort of holiday tune that quickly morphs into suspense.. then the sleighbells show up...

The combo of the iconic bells and sleighbells, woodwinds (sort of like we find in detective movies), mysterious glissandi clearly indicate that something is about to happen during the holidays. The bit after is a lullaby. Then, the children choir comes in. Evocative of christmas mass/ caroling, but clearly, children. Lyrics gives it up too... I could go on and on. People who study music know the symbolism behind different these... Does is say the entire story... of course not... but it's very evocative, just like the violin, the folk songs and the klezmer music are in Schindler's List. I am not sure what point you are trying to make... mine was simply in reaction to your comment that says falsely that Schindler's List soundtrack could be in any movie... and that's just not true.

This time, I am truly done with the musicology 101 class

 

[4everchan]

What's fun about it is that you can play the same game against a master opponent and then against a lower-ranked player. It is very interesting to see what masters know about the game that the rest of us don't.

Let's make sure that we get AI judges that are top-ranked quality judges and not lower-level ones

 

[gkelly]

I think there is something more to be said. When the then-new judging system was introduced in the early 2000s, there were two major, major, majpr differrences vis-a-vis the judging system that we had become accustomed to as "traditional." The first difference was obvious to everyone -- the idea of getting points for each trick that you did and whoever accumulated the most points wins.

But there was a second change of direction. In the old system skating was separated into "technicaal" and "artistic" -- the first mark and the second.

It wasn't always as simple as that. Nor was the word "artistic" anywhere in the rules as of the early 2000s.

The Evolution Of Technical Merit And Artistic Impression

Everything you want to know about the history of figure skating in one place! An authoritative archive of over a century of figure skating history.

skateguard1.blogspot.com

 

[Mathman]

Ermmm... i think that there are a lot of qualitative components that can be judged objectively. How do you think music competitions are judged? There are obviously things that are subjective but others that can be judged with the utmost objectivity.

I am not a musician,or musicologist and I have no more qualifications to judge a piano-playing contest than I have to judge figure skating. But since you asked what I think, I think that sometimes it is unanimously clear to all jurors that this particular contestant played the best. But that there are other contests where competitors are closer in skill -- or maybe present different skills -- ifor which a panel of experts might be divided.

Some judges have more integrity than others

Being human, yes that's true. But on the whole I think that the great majority of figure skating judges take their responibilities seriously and do their level best to fair and "objective" in their judgements. But even so, the second-place finisher will complain that he was robbed, and in fact that he is the most aggrieved individual in the history of grievances. (Send me $5,)

 

[Diana Delafield]

For sure... even in combos, often the first jump is a longer jump while the second is higher... (like Gabby Daleman's 3t-3t)
But there are ways to reward athletes who do a higher jump just as well as a longer jump... i guess there would be parameters where great distance in whatever direction gets some points.. I imagine also that some athletes may tick both the high and long boxes... as we can see with some axels for instance. It's all good... the point I am making is not about the details but the principle. Just a few years ago, tennis matches depended on line judges... not anymore... Everyone was saying the hawkeye system was way too costly to implement every where... well... many tournaments use it at this point...

Oh, as long as they reward the achievement by either style that's fine with me (as if The Powers That Be care about pleasing me personally ). I was just uneasy about the possibility that someone might decide higher -- but possibly messier -- jumps deserved higher marks than lower neater ones, or vice versa.

Tennis I don't play, watch, or know much about, so I can't compare. I'll take your word for that.

 

[4everchan]

I am not a musician,or musicologist and I have no more qualifications to judge a piano-playing contest than I have to judge figure skating. But since you asked what I think, I think that sometimes it is unanimously clear to all juros that this particular contestant played the best. But that there are other contests where competitors are closer in skill -- or maybe present different skills -- ifor which a panel of experts might be divided.

Yup. Sometimes, the winner is obvious. Sometimes, several contenders are more or less equal... but let's not think about the results here... let's think about the process : most of the skills can be looked at with a degree of objectivity (pitch, sound control, phrasing, clarity and accuracy, respect of the text etc etc). There are some components though that will be judged more subjectively : these components would be those relating to emotional connection. Tradition and style are big factors in assessing emotional connection, however, in some cases, unique, out of the box interpretations, may lead to a spark in the interest. One cannot be too bland nor too out there... It's a bit like this in figure skating you know However, as I have mentioned, there are clear qualitative but objective factors.

Being human, yes that's true. But on the whole I think that the great majority of figure skating judges take their responibilities seriously and do their level best to fair and "objective" in their judgements. But even so, the second-place finisher will complain that he was robbed, and in fact that he is the most aggrieved individual in the history of grievances. (Send me $5,)

I think this is probably true for most judges... the problem comes exactly when one or two judges ruin an event... and it has happened.

 

[Magill]

The most straight-forward way to design an AI judge for figure skating would be to feed in electronic videos of a million skating performances, together with the marks given by human judges. The program would then analyze the programs in byte-sized detail and find the closest matches for various elements and moves, which then determine the score. (This is somewhat like AI programs that write your essay for college admission for you.)

Oh, no, that would mean we feed the AI with all the human biases, favouritism and errors which are the very reason we want AI to replace human judges in the first place!
FS is very different from chess and tennis as no one is judging the gracefulness with which a chess player grabs a pawn or a tennis player is running to the net. In the end of the day, their score is based on hard facts which can be misjudged only as a result of human error - and this is where AI comes in more and more. To better assess the hard facts.
With FS the question is not just about human errors in miscalculating rotations or failing to notice a wrong edge, UR etc., not even about differences in subjective opinions about what constitutes a great jump, great composition or interpretation and which skater does it better. It is also about favouritisms and intentional misjudgements which are different from built-in subjectivity, but, alas, have been happening all the time nevertheless.
Yes, intentional. As all the facts like corridor scoring of PCS, awarding PCS in relation to TES, taking into account what federation, which coach, what history, etc etc. this is all intentional misjudgements which are built into the system by now but which should never happen and which might be simply eliminated by AI provided no one would feed this compromised notions into its software