2024 Europeans Entries

[throw_triple_flip]

Absolutely delighted that Sofía and Asaf have been selected for Europeans.


CaroLiza_fan

I'm guessing they've gone by TES (a better choice as domestic PCS can't really be trusted, especially when one team isn't absolutely miles ahead of the other).


(I found out this news by being a lurker on reddit.. the way this is being talked about would have you thinking that Smart and Dieck are like the second coming of Torvill and Dean and the only hope of slaying "the daughter's" (Diana Davis) chances of ice dance success. Just beyond bizarre.)

 

[throw_triple_flip]

The feds are really having a heated contest who's the worst of them and they come up with all kind of dirt to win.

I don't think there's a case to be made about V/K being better. They aren't. Maybe Smart/Dieck have been disappointing for the Spanish fed. There was a lot of hype in the beginning and so far they have not been stellar. Nonetheless they are a very good team. They have scored higher throughout the season than V/K. They are national champions. They have the better chance to win two spots for Spain.
The fed could have said they give Europeans to V/K to give them a chance or to S/D where they have to prove their level again or something and then decide on worlds. But no, they gave both events to the team that scored (partly much) lower and cannot be expected to score higher than S/D would.
It is mindblowing. The fact that they named the criteria pretty late in the season, almost after the fact, also adds shade.

The best explanation I see is that the Spanish fed wants to support their own coaching camp/spot. It's still all very weird.

With all due respect Smart and Dieck aren't good enough to be justifying this sort of response. I think they would struggling to make a European top 10 on this sort of form.

 

[icewhite]

With all due respect Smart and Dieck aren't good enough to be justifying this sort of response. I think they would struggling to make a European top 10 on this sort of form.

They may be Spanish champions but that's purely based on domestic PCS which is less objective than the TES.

The reactions on reddit are overblown and mostly seem to stem from people loving Olivia. But - basing the selections on TES alone was apparently decided before Nationals. It was not "oh, this scoring was not correct", but just "let's base it on TES alone" - and not just the domestic TES, but the TES in all events, the international ones as well, and me, I don't see how this is valid as the only selection factor. At Europeans they will be scored in both TES and PCS as well. That will decide the result. V/K are amazing for their age, I could see many arguments like "they are on an upward trajectory" or "they are so promising, we want to give them international experience". But to give them both events right away, when they have scored less- and Carolizafan hopped over that a bit - at each competition this season? The Bosphorus cup has had very high scores for everyone by the way. Teams there scored 10-20 points better then in all other international events of the season. So comparing it to the GP result of S/D is... hm.
Personally I think the higher PCS for S/D are deserved, because their skating is smoother, they skate with deeper edges, more tempo variation, especially her leg extension is much better and her arm movements are much calmer, while Val's are a bit frantic and random, but it's not about what I think - if you think S/D have been overscored all the time, well, would you not expect them to be so at Europeans as well? Would you not expect the fed to choose the team that has the best scores, not the ones they think is best?

I'm not very invested in S/D. I like them, but not that much that I would fight for them. I can well see their weaknesses (especially Tim's) and that V/K are a great promising team. I just think the whole thing here reeks of some politics behind the scenes, not of "justice being served".

 

[norwegianfairytale]

With all due respect Smart and Dieck aren't good enough to be justifying this sort of response. I think they would struggling to make a European top 10 on this sort of form.


They may be Spanish champions but that's purely based on domestic PCS which is hardly objective.
Having seen most of the competitions that both teams have competed at i think this is the correct choice.

Don´t forget that Smart and Dieck are higher on the world ranking and would have been in a later group at Euros compared to Val/Kazimov, we all know that actually influences the score a little, particular the difference is important in the SP where you have a lot of groups who are very tight with scores in the 60 area, the PCS after the SP will most likely be a important factor to push you into a late group in the FD all though there are really small margins between the teams with less then 2-5 points from the highest to lowest and the top 10 teams, which eventually give you a boost for the total score. If Val/Kazimov end up in the first group in the FD, and Smart/Dieck would have made it to the penultimate group, that could very well be the difference between top 10 and not. It´s really difficult to move much in the standings after the SP.

The majority don´t think Smart and Dieck should be chosen because of the result at the Spanish championship, but based on the result from the rest of the season, where they did indeed did have the edge by a small margin in total score. What makes us even more furious is that decision to base in on TES purely was suddenly decided in the mid of November, where deadlines for competition was done. That is not fair play. They can´t just decide that mid season when there are no real chance for them to reach deadlines before Euros. If they had known in the beginning of the season, Smart/Dieck could at least had a decent chance with putting themselves on the entries for an international B event like Bosphorus Cup or something, where judging isn´t that strict. I´m sure they would have done another competition if they had known.

At least they should have gotten a shot to fight for the Worlds spot, by having a chance to improving their TES further after Christmas.

I do agree that Val/Kazimov have been impressive this season, and Smart and Dieck are not flawless at all and a bit rusty, but they are a new team and they most likely started training a bit later than usual because of Olivias dancing on ice. So i´m sure they can get better as the season goes on.

 

[CaroLiza_fan]

(I found out this news by being a lurker on reddit.. the way this is being talked about would have you thinking that Smart and Dieck are like the second coming of Torvill and Dean and the only hope of slaying "the daughter's" (Diana Davis) chances of ice dance success. Just beyond bizarre.)

I just had a look at it, and I see what you mean.

And just to address one of the points that was made, yes Sofía is only 19 and is already onto her third partner. But, having adopted both of her previous partners when they were Singles skaters and followed their careers since, I think I am in a position to say that this was less to do with Sofía and more to do with her partners. She was unfortunate to find herself partnering two guys who go through partners like nobody's business.

Since his first partnership broke up, and taking out the seasons that he didn't compete, Linus Colmor Jepson had 5 partners in 6 seasons. (Sofía and his original partner are the only ones he was with longer than 1 season).

Again taking out the seasons that he didn't compete, Nikita Vitryanyuk had 4 partners in 3 seasons. (Yes, he went through 2 partners in a single season).

Asaf Kazimov is 23 and Sofía is his fourth partner. But, has has been doing Ice Dance for a long time, and all his partnerships have lasted longer. His first partnership lasted 2 seasons; his second partnership lasted 4 seasons; his third partnership lasted 3 seasons, but that included the pandemic, so it was effectively one and a half seasons. But the fact that, after only half a season together, they stayed together for a season and a half while not being able to compete, and then did a full season together, speaks volumes.

So, I am optimistic that this partnership will last. There is nothing that I have seen so far that is suggesting that it won't.

CaroLiza_fan

 

[throw_triple_flip]

The reactions on reddit are overblown and mostly seem to stem from people loving Olivia. But - basing the selections on TES alone was apparently decided before Nationals. It was not "oh, this scoring was not correct", but just "let's base it on TES alone" - and not just the domestic TES, but the TES in all events, the international ones as well, and me, I don't see how this is valid as the only selection factor. At Europeans they will be scored in both TES and PCS as well. That will decide the result. V/K are amazing for their age, I could see many arguments like "they are on an upward trajectory" or "they are so promising, we want to give them international experience". But to give them both events right away, when they have scored less- and Carolizafan hopped over that a bit - at each competition this season? The Bosphorus cup has had very high scores for everyone by the way. Teams there scored 10-20 points better then in all other international events of the season. So comparing it to the GP result of S/D is... hm.
Personally I think the higher PCS for S/D are deserved, because their skating is smoother, they skate with deeper edges, more tempo variation, especially her leg extension is much better and her arm movements are much calmer, while Val's are a bit frantic and random, but it's not about what I think - if you think S/D have been overscored all the time, well, would you not expect them to be so at Europeans as well? Would you not expect the fed to choose the team that has the best scores, not the ones they think is best?

I'm not very invested in S/D. I like them, but not that much that I would fight for them. I can well see their weaknesses (especially Tim's) and that V/K are a great promising team. I just think the whole thing here reeks of some politics behind the scenes, not of "justice being served".

So.. they set out the selection criteria in advance. Both teams knew this. What's the problem? Every federation has their own selection criteria (with different advantages and disadvantages). Why is this less valid than any other?

Politics didn't cause those twizzle errors.

You're complaining about politics- what if those who think politics played a part in the national result are right? Would it be fair to ignore the criteria set out and send the other teams to championships in that case?

If you don't really care for Smart and Dieck I don't understand your reaction. Raging and getting into a "fury" seems a tad much. You're acting like they've been treated unfarly or singled out and I can't really understand why.
You also complain the Bosphorus Cup was too high.. does that mean that judging can't be high anywhere else, including at Grand Prix?

 

[CaroLiza_fan]

The reactions on reddit are overblown and mostly seem to stem from people loving Olivia. But - basing the selections on TES alone was apparently decided before Nationals. It was not "oh, this scoring was not correct", but just "let's base it on TES alone" - and not just the domestic TES, but the TES in all events, the international ones as well, and me, I don't see how this is valid as the only selection factor. At Europeans they will be scored in both TES and PCS as well. That will decide the result. V/K are amazing for their age, I could see many arguments like "they are on an upward trajectory" or "they are so promising, we want to give them international experience". But to give them both events right away, when they have scored less- and Carolizafan hopped over that a bit - at each competition this season? The Bosphorus cup has had very high scores for everyone by the way. Teams there scored 10-20 points better then in all other international events of the season. So comparing it to the GP result of S/D is... hm.
Personally I think the higher PCS for S/D are deserved, because their skating is smoother, they skate with deeper edges, more tempo variation, especially her leg extension is much better and her arm movements are much calmer, while Val's are a bit frantic and random, but it's not about what I think - if you think S/D have been overscored all the time, well, would you not expect them to be so at Europeans as well? Would you not expect the fed to choose the team that has the best scores, not the ones they think is best?

I'm not very invested in S/D. I like them, but not that much that I would fight for them. I can well see their weaknesses (especially Tim's) and that V/K are a great promising team. I just think the whole thing here reeks of some politics behind the scenes, not of "justice being served".

Sorry if it sounds like I was hopping over things. I take it that you are referring to the table and graph links that I had originally posted in the Fan Fest after the Bosphorus Cup, and which I copied in here. The point I was trying to make at that time is that, generally speaking, they were scoring in the same sort of area (the Ondrej Nepela Memorial was the exception, but everybody can have a bad event). And that in their most recent assignments before Nationals, Olivia and Tim had scored lower whereas Sofía and Asaf had scored higher, which would give the younger partnership a confidence boost going into Nationals.

As for "justice being served", I have since edited that post a bit. It has in regards of Sofía and Asaf being selected for Europeans. They deserved that. BUT, the Fed has over-compensated by selecting them for Senior Worlds as well. Olivia and Tim should have been sent to Senior Worlds.

Throughout the Hurtado / Khaliavin vs Smart / Díaz era, I liked the way that in the years when Spain only had one slot at both Euros and Senior Worlds, the Fed would give each partnership one assignment each. They should have done the same here.

By the way, for those that are interested, here are the corresponding graphs for Hurtado / Khaliavin vs Smart / Díaz:

Short Dance: https://skatingscores.com/chart/?qu...8-unit_name=&form-8-unit_color=&submit=Submit
Free Dance: https://skatingscores.com/chart/?qu...8-unit_name=&form-8-unit_color=&submit=Submit
Overall: https://skatingscores.com/chart/?qu...8-unit_name=&form-8-unit_color=&submit=Submit

Although there is the odd outlier, generally speaking they were well matched too!

CaroLiza_fan

 

[Jumping_Bean]

Tim has been in 2021/22 in a similar situation but on the other side - being second in Nationals and going to Europeans and Olympics instead of Jen/Ben so he should be fine with the decisison.

Very much not the same situation - M/D had been outscoring JvR/S all season long, apart from Nationals. Not by much, to be fair, but both teams had access to the ranking lists before Nationals and Jenny and Ben knew what they had to outscore Katarina and Tim by. Also, the criteria were released sometime around August/September iirc, which is much earlier than middle of November.

I'm guessing they've gone by TES (a better choice as domestic PCS can't really be trusted, especially when one team isn't absolutely miles ahead of the other).

People are not talking about domestic PCS. Internationally, S/D have been scoring on average 10 points higher in PCS at every competition than V/K - That's not insignificant.

So.. they set out the selection criteria in advance. Both teams knew this. What's the problem?

Because the criteria weren't set until mid-November, after which S/D had no Chance of improving 2 out of 3 of their TES scores because all entry deadlines had already passed. Is that really fair?

You also complain the Bosphorus Cup was too high.. does that mean that judging can't be high anywhere else, including at Grand Prix?

Of course, scores can be high at GPs too - But not to this level. Dupayage/Nabais for example scored almost 10 points higher than at Nationals there, same for Ignateva/Szmeko and other teams too.

 

[throw_triple_flip]

I just had a look at it, and I see what you mean.

And just to address one of the points that was made, yes Sofía is only 19 and is already onto her third partner. But, having adopted both of her previous partners when they were Singles skaters and followed their careers since, I think I am in a position to say that this was less to do with Sofía and more to do with her partners. She was unfortunate to find herself partnering two guys who go through partners like nobody's business.

Since his first partnership broke up, and taking out the seasons that he didn't compete, Linus Colmor Jepson had 5 partners in 6 seasons. (Sofía and his original partner are the only ones he was with longer than 1 season).

Again taking out the seasons that he didn't compete, Nikita Vitryanyuk had 4 partners in 3 seasons. (Yes, he went through 2 partners in a single season).

Asaf Kazimov is 23 and Sofía is his fourth partner. But, has has been doing Ice Dance for a long time, and all his partnerships have lasted longer. His first partnership lasted 2 seasons; his second partnership lasted 4 seasons; his third partnership lasted 3 seasons, but that included the pandemic, so it was effectively one and a half seasons. But the fact that, after only half a season together, they stayed together for a season and a half while not being able to compete, and then did a full season together, speaks volumes.

So, I am optimistic that this partnership will last. There is nothing that I have seen so far that is suggesting that it won't.

CaroLiza_fan

There's something rather nasty (and perhaps sexist) in the way those criticisms are being expressed. Men who do similar don't get anywhere near the same amount of criticism- reflecting other unenlightened aspects of life in that regard i guess.

I've also noticed that teams where the woman is technically weaker get all sorts of abuse but teams with the reverse don't get much comment at all. Considering the amount of vitriol that certain skaters have gotten for not saying the "right" things online (or liking "wrong" posts) it's so hypocritical.

 

[Jumping_Bean]

There's something rather nasty (and perhaps sexist) in the way those criticisms are being expressed. Men who do similar don't get anywhere near the same amount of criticism- reflecting other unenlightened aspects of life in that regard i guess.

I've also noticed that teams where the woman is technically weaker get all sorts of abuse but teams with the reverse don't get much comment at all. Considering the amount of vitriol that certain skaters have gotten for not saying the "right" things online (or liking "wrong" posts) it's so hypocritical.

I would not co-sign that. In fact, most of the people I've seen being accused of "partner-hopping" or "importing and dumping" their partners were men (examples: Harley Windsor and Luka Berulava). Same for behaviour on social media, though that does seem to be split more equally between men and women.

As for "weaker" female partners being criticised more - Somewhat yes (though there are some exceptions, like Tim Koleto), but I wonder how much of that is misogyny and how much of that is weaker skating skills being easier to conceal in women with clever choreography (a la Chock/Bates or Fear/Gibson) allowing teams to be more successful than teams having a similar skill gap with a weaker male partner.

 

[throw_triple_flip]

after which S/D had no Chance of improving 2 out of 3 of their TES scores because all entry deadlines had already passed. Is that really fair?

The decision on the selection criteria could've been made ages ago(it's entirely possible that they assumed Smart and Dieck would easily meet it and be higher tha the other team). You're raging about a big conspiracy against them which is just not rational. Why would the federation want to do that? It makes no sense. Their actions in the last few months indicate nothing of the kind.


They had the chance to prove themselves at nationals and made significant errors. They also opted not to compete after their GPs. That's all down to them.

 

[throw_triple_flip]

Of course, scores can be high at GPs too - But not to this level. Dupayage/Nabais for example scored almost 10 points higher than at Nationals there, same for Ignateva/Szmeko and other teams too.

The Hungarian team's scores have been all over the place the past couple of seasons (much like their performances). They have definitely shown themselves capable of scores in that region on a number of occasions. But much lower too. If anything they're an example of the exact opposite of the point you're trying to prove.

 

[emilinkaa]

Sucks a bit for Kai Jagoda who looked great at the DMs, but I think it's the right decision.

I wish they’d chosen to split it. Kai for Euros, I guess let Nikita go to Worlds. Kai has worked so hard this season.

 

[emilinkaa]

I was wondering who they were going to choose for their ladies entry. It has been so close between Lea and Lorine all season. Lorine is more consistent technically, but lacks experience (which shows in her presentation marks). Lea has better performance skills but is inconsistent and has always had a tendency to bomb in higher pressure events. I think their respective performances at nationals probably clinched it for Lorine, and I also think that it is right to send the national champion when it has been so close between them. It must be tough for Lea, though, especially with her having relocated to Germany to try to improve.

I think Lea has improved a lot. She’s only been with Huth for a few months. I’m excited for next year for her.

 

[norwegianfairytale]

I think Lea has improved a lot. She’s only been with Huth for a few months. I’m excited for next year for her.

Lea actually got the Worlds spot. So they splitted Euros and Worlds between her and Lorine, I think that was a good option!

 

[emilinkaa]

Lea actually got the Worlds spot. So they splitted Euros and Worlds between her and Lorine, I think that was a good option!

I hadn’t seen that! So good to hear. I mentioned that I wish they’d done that for Kai and Nikita.

 

[FlossieH]

I think Lea has improved a lot. She’s only been with Huth for a few months. I’m excited for next year for her.

Lea had been improving under Huth, and I started to think that she had finally turned a corner, but then went downhill again in her last three competitions. That is why I am still concerned about her being inconsistent and her struggling when she is under more pressure. She and Lara Naki Gutman remind me of each other - lots of potential but have never fully used it because they are so inconsistent.

I think sending one of Lea/Lorine to Euros and the other to Worlds is fair. As she is more consistent, I have more confidence in Lorine placing top 10 at Euros and securing two places for next year (which would, realistically, go to the two of them because Mae-Berenice has - understandably - really struggled to return from her ACL injury and Stefania won't be age-eligible for seniors for another 3 years). I don't think either is likely to place in the top 10 at Worlds.

 

[throw_triple_flip]

And like.... they don´t want two spots at Euros next season either? I feel really bad Olivia and Tim, I wonder if they regret now not skating for the German Fed

If they'd skated for Germany they would have had to spend way more of their own money. And that Montreal training isn't exactly cheap.

 

[Andrea82]

Full entry lists up on ISU website

https://results.isu.org/events/fsevent00117459.htm

 

[Jumping_Bean]

The decision on the selection criteria could've been made ages ago(it's entirely possible that they assumed Smart and Dieck would easily meet it and be higher tha the other team). You're raging about a big conspiracy against them which is just not rational. Why would the federation want to do that? It makes no sense. Their actions in the last few months indicate nothing of the kind.

If smart and Dieck chose not go to further competitions after Grand Prix then that was their choice. No one stopped them, did they?

What we know is that the selection criteria document was released on November 16th, 6 days after the entry deadline for the last international competitions including Dance before Euros. Maybe the skaters/coaches were told earlier, but why would they then wait to release the official document?
If they did not know, S/D might have reasonably expected the selection to be based on total scores, as was the case in previous seasons, and chose to save money and focus on training instead of (in that case) needlessly competing.

The Hungarian team's scores have been all over the place the past couple of seasons (much like their performances). They have definitely shown themselves capable of scores in that region on a number of occasions. But much lower too. If anything they're an example of the exact opposite of the point you're trying to prove.

But they have very much not scored anywhere close to 170+ at any other competition this season. Rather they have consistently scored around 150 at all other international competitions, and would not have scored above 170 at Nationals even without the twizzle mistake in the Free either.

There are many things I am, but stupid is not one of them, and if the scores at a competition are on average over 8 points higher than the next highest score for the teams at an international competition this season (excluding those who have otherwise only competed as Juniors), I am not going to stand here and say that the scoring at this competition was not generous.