2023-24 Russian Challenge

[Mathematician]

I didn't want to tune in but can't help myself.
The way the term artistry (which like I've said a million times seems totally useless in (current) figure skating because 1 it isn't once mentioned in the judging rules, 2 it's a totally subjective term which would require at least a personal definition first) gets wildly thrown around drives me crazy.

Well were talking about a show program not a points competition so it becomes relevant in any case. And the judge's criteria may be concrete but is a viewer's? No. Personal criteria me and another other user wish to discuss isnt regulated by any scoring sheets or ISU standards.

I watched it, of course. My opinion still stands. Trofimova's mediocre choreographed program, which is typical for AoP, doesn't help.

Mediocre choreography > no choreography

 

[icewhite]

Well were talking about a show program not a points competition so it becomes relevant in any case. And the judge's criteria may be concrete but is a viewer's? No. Personal criteria me and another other user wish to discuss isnt regulated by any scoring sheets or ISU standards.

Then what are the criteria though? What does "artistic skater" mean?

 

[AlexBreeze]

Prizes

1. Most outstanding and memorable program
1 - 5 000 000 RUB
2 - 3 000 000 RUB
3 - 1 000 000 RUB

Prizes for the "Most outstanding and memorable program" will be awarded by a professional jury according to the main criterion of
"depth of impression / power of influence", taking into account:
- Artistry of the performer(s);
- Originality of the idea;
- Quality of the performance;
- Richness of the program with original elements;
- Interaction with the audience in the stands and TV cameras.

Each member of the jury places any three participants of the competition in the nomination "Most outstanding and memorable program" in the following order:
- 1st place - 3 points
- 2nd place - 2 points
- 3rd place - 1 point

The winner is the participant who receives the most points according to the sum of points from all members of the jury.
In case of a tie, the place and the prize money shall be distributed between participants with the same amount of points equally.

2. Special prizes
* Special prizes cannot be awarded to the winners in the nomination "Most outstanding and memorable program"
2.1 Special prize from every jury member
A special prize from the jury is awarded personally by each member of the professional jury at their discretion to any of the participants of the competition.

2.2 The audience award
The audience award is awarded to one participant of the competition based on the results of the audience voting on
Channel One website www.1tv.ru. The voting is held from 17.00 until the end of the event. 1 vote is allowed from 1
device.

2.3. The media award
The media award is awarded to one participant of the competition based on the results of the media voting. The voting
is held from 17.00 until the end of the event.

2.4 Additional special prizes
Additional special prizes are awarded by the professional jury members in the following nominations:
• For grace and artistry
• For the vivid embodiment of the idea
• For acting skills
• For kindness and soulfulness
• For the unity of music and skating
• For the original idea
• For loyalty to the memory
• For giving a good mood
• For the matching character and costume
• For a sense of humor

 

[Mathematician]

Then what are the criteria though? What does "artistic skater" mean?

It can mean whatever the two parties in the specific discussion lead to. If I provide my criteria, which I did, they can either:

1. disagree that those are artistic criteria and provide their own and explain
2. disagree that my skater fulfills those criteria more than theirs and explain
3. clarify that, although their original statement implied an objective standpoint on the skaters, they actually were just giving their own personal taste, which is what the other person did in this case and I didnt fight further past that.

In option 1 or 2 the discussion is valuable because both parties are mutually closing towards truth (which does exist in some platonic sense of forms since everybody on earth would agree that Sinitsyna is a more artistic skater than myself who has hit the ice once in the past decade) and improving their artistic understanding. Its unlikely a purely objective, perfect perspective on art will be reached by humans but that doesnt mean that there isnt truth to be found and discussed anyways.

 

[icewhite]

It can mean whatever the two parties in the specific discussion lead to. If I provide my criteria, which I did, they can either:

1. disagree that those are artistic criteria and provide their own and explain
2. disagree that my skater fulfills those criteria more than theirs and explain
3. clarify that, although their original statement implied an objective standpoint on the skaters, they actually were just giving their own personal taste, which is what the other person did in this case and I didnt fight further past that.

In option 1 or 2 the discussion is valuable because both parties are mutually closing towards truth (which does exist in some platonic sense of forms since everybody on earth would agree that Sinitsyna is a more artistic skater than myself who has hit the ice once in the past decade) and improving their artistic understanding. Its unlikely a purely objective, perfect perspective on art will be reached by humans but that doesnt mean that there isnt truth to be found and discussed anyways.

Well, apparently the organizers of this event even give prizes for artistry... I wonder what the Russian word for it is and how it would translate to German.

 

[TallyT]

Prizes

1. Most outstanding and memorable program
1 - 5 000 000 RUB
2 - 3 000 000 RUB
3 - 1 000 000 RUB

Prizes for the "Most outstanding and memorable program" will be awarded by a professional jury according to the main criterion of
"depth of impression / power of influence", taking into account:
- Artistry of the performer(s);
- Originality of the idea;
- Quality of the performance;
- Richness of the program with original elements;
- Interaction with the audience in the stands and TV cameras.

Each member of the jury places any three participants of the competition in the nomination "Most outstanding and memorable program" in the following order:
- 1st place - 3 points
- 2nd place - 2 points
- 3rd place - 1 point

The winner is the participant who receives the most points according to the sum of points from all members of the jury.
In case of a tie, the place and the prize money shall be distributed between participants with the same amount of points equally.

2. Special prizes
* Special prizes cannot be awarded to the winners in the nomination "Most outstanding and memorable program"
2.1 Special prize from every jury member
A special prize from the jury is awarded personally by each member of the professional jury at their discretion to any of the participants of the competition.

2.2 The audience award
The audience award is awarded to one participant of the competition based on the results of the audience voting on
Channel One website www.1tv.ru. The voting is held from 17.00 until the end of the event. 1 vote is allowed from 1
device.

2.3. The media award
The media award is awarded to one participant of the competition based on the results of the media voting. The voting
is held from 17.00 until the end of the event.

2.4 Additional special prizes
Additional special prizes are awarded by the professional jury members in the following nominations:
• For grace and artistry
• For the vivid embodiment of the idea
• For acting skills
• For kindness and soulfulness
• For the unity of music and skating
• For the original idea
• For loyalty to the memory
• For giving a good mood
• For the matching character and costume
• For a sense of humor

It's a children's party!!! I've been to a couple of those (big family) where "every kiddie gets a prize damn it no matter how many we have to invent!!!" (Plus these are so nebulous that the judges can fudge with abandon.)

 

[alix15]

Fun fact : in French, we say “patinage artistique” for “figure skating”, which literally means “artistic skating”.
So we must not neglect the part of artistic even if the meaning is uncertain (yes, FIGURE skating is not all about jumps).

 

[Amei]

It's a children's party!!! I've been to a couple of those (big family) where "every kiddie gets a prize damn it no matter how many we have to invent!!!" (Plus these are so nebulous that the judges can fudge with abandon.)

Well considering the sour faces that happened last year....

 

[icewhite]

Well considering the sour faces that happened last year....

But... is now everyone getting exactly one prize... or will everyone but 3 get prizes... won't those that don't get anything be even more frustrated?

 

[icewhite]

Fun fact : in French, we say “patinage artistique” for “figure skating”, which literally means “artistic skating”.
So we must not neglect the part of artistic even if the meaning is uncertain (yes, FIGURE skating is not all about jumps).

Of course. I'm the last to defend ice jumping as what this sport is supposed to be. It's just that it seems to me that artistic is used by people to mean all kinds of things, but very often it means a classical version of a female figure skater who does some delicate movements to classical music in a pretty dress.
Does artistic mean it's about art? Is it then of relevance in how much the skater is involved in the process of choreography? Whether the program is actually original? Or is it just performance art - they are like actors and it matters most how realistically and therefor touching they convey the emotion? Or are they supposed to be very dramatic, even over the top, more like opera singers? Or does "artistic" actually, like the German "Eiskunstlauf"/ Kunstfertigkeit mean the skillfullness, that is control of the blade? But then it's not about art, it's about using the body like a craft. Would those that talk about artistry consider a well done Eminem program by Aymoz or Economides or Jimmy Ma consider artistic when the skater has control of the blade, hits all beats and nuances, conveys a coherent concept or would they, as I suspect, rather use it for a "balletic" style even if the skater is worse in skating and timing?

 

[Mathematician]

Well, apparently the organizers of this event even give prizes for artistry... I wonder what the Russian word for it is and how it would translate to German.

The Russian word for art is much more broad than the english term, not sure about german. It includes not just the conventional renaissance idea of arts but the whole concepts of creation and craftsmanship, if you were to get poetic it could even just mean general mastery; "искусство (iskustvo)". Its a very subjective word that is hard to define outside of its established, natively intuitive purpose.

Of course. I'm the last to defend ice jumping as what this sport is supposed to be. It's just that it seems to me that artistic is used by people to mean all kinds of things, but very often it means a classical version of a female figure skater who does some delicate movements to classical music in a pretty dress.
Does artistic mean it's about art? Is it then of relevance in how much the skater is involved in the process of choreography? Whether the program is actually original? Or is it just performance art - they are like actors and it matters most how realistically and therefor touching they convey the emotion? Or are they supposed to be very dramatic, even over the top, more like opera singers? Or does "artistic" actually, like the German "Eiskunstlauf"/ Kunstfertigkeit mean the skillfullness, that is control of the blade? But then it's not about art, it's about using the body like a craft. Would those that talk about artistry consider a well done Eminem program by Aymoz or Economides or Jimmy Ma consider artistic when the skater has control of the blade, hits all beats and nuances, conveys a coherent concept or would they, as I suspect, rather use it for a "balletic" style even if the skater is worse in skating and timing?

The most correct answer would likely just be all of the above. You make a good point about trying to distinguish pure expressive/pensive art from the idea of craftsmanship and skill. I dont know how realistic it is to try to give a good distinction between those concepts semantically because languages are quite limited when it comes to pure, objective logic and proof - hence us using math to help with that.

Personal opinion: I think most people who oftentimes reference art in skating would agree there is a different level of sentimental impression you get from different programs. For example an elite balletic program might make me introspective or pensive about life, even sometimes such a program could invoke in me some friendly feelings of relatability which to me is the highest appreciation of art. Meanwhile a highly refined, rhythmic eminem program would invoke intellectual respect/admiration but little lasting impression on my life and character; I think there are some skaters or programs who actually changed who I am and how I think, especially as an artist. This is what I would mean if I were to reference sophistication in art. However still I wouldnt dogmatically argue that the latter example is unequivocally not art at all, its just a different level of profundity in my eyes. But again I remind that in this paragraph I am admittedly just giving my own opinion, not providing a concrete thesis...

 

[alix15]

For me, artistic should be understand as “how the skater is involved in his own program and how we can understand what the skater wants to show us”.
It’s like a piece of theatre, the skaters should skate like they’re acting, playing a role. It’s a whole package, with musicality, costume, facial expression and choreo.
With my definition, it can apply to ballet style (like mura) as much as MJ program for example.
I reckon the skaters should chose the topic they want to skate to and not to skate to famous program. Plus, i find often that some program are inapropriate for young skaters. (For example, how can you skate “artistically” to a game of thrones or a Schindler program when you're 12 and never even watched it.)

I know i like a program and find it “artistically” when I can't take my eyes off of the skater while performing, when I’m truly enjoying the moment and when I’m thrilled before a comp to see this specific program.
For example, I’m always so excited to see Alisa’SP like I’m always thrilled to see every Kevin Aymoz program, even if it’s a totally different style.
But again, everybody should interpret the meaning of “artistic” how they want, and I'm sure it’s exactly the point of “artistic” (everyone has his own interpretation).

Finally, the “artistic side of fs” must remain subjective and it’s normal to have different opinions, since we all have different topics that matter to us (its no use arguing about whether a program is artistic or not and what means artistic)

Let’s enjoy the very “artistic” competition we are on about to watch.

 

[yume]

I guess judges themselves have different interpretations of artistry.
But what i see the most is that if a skater has strong SS, he/she has automatically good PCS. High speed, deep edges, that's it. The famous "skating big".
I see more skaters with those qualities in their skating skills, but weak choreo and interpretation, get better PCS than the ones with medium SS but strong choreo and interpretation skills.

 

[Arwen17]

I'm really underwhelmed by the amount of women in this event. Since I don't care much about men/pairs/ice-dancers, this means I won't be watching live and will just skim later since the only thing I usually watch in any event is the women.

I don't know why Eteri isn't bringing her girls, but if you're not going to have them, then invite other women!

 

[katymay]

There is not a single standard metric you can site by which she is more artistic than Petrosian. Not extension, timing, choreographic sophistication, musicality, cohesion... not one thing. Frolova's Там Нет Меня pales even to junior Trofimova's skate to the same music.

People need to stop bestowing the compensating title of artist on any Russian girl who doesnt jump ultra-c, equalization for its own sake... Why do people so widely hold an aversion to respecting who is already on top for good reason?

Agree to disagree on that. One thing about Frolova is the lightness of her jumps-she lands like a ballet dancer lands a leap or jump. I love athletic skaters, but Frolova gives us something different and beautiful.

 

[LadyB]

Reading the comments and people's idea of what this event is actually suppose to be says it all: It is whatever you make of it.
To me, it's not a competition but a show piece. Yes, there is an element of kiddies' party with prizes for everyone and last year's event was slightly farcical.
But hey, it's our farce, nobody is forced to watch it. I just wanna see and enjoy some of my lovelies perform.
Having said that, I might not even be able to watch it in real time, but I'll do my best.

 

[Skating91]

My motivation is not the same this year naturally with Valieva out, no Team Tutberidze skaters, no Tuktamysheva, and with the requirement to make each program relate to Russian culture much of the subtext will be lost on me as a foreigner.

But people can't mock it for instance giving everyone a prize. It's a fun tournament to watch retired skaters compete, or see current skaters in new images. It's a great idea. If the ISU did something similar and offered prizemoney they would have every top skater in the world appearing.

I thought the Russian fed got it perfect last season then strayed from what works. I suppose it is better than being conservative like the ISU. I wouldn't have had juniors (more so novices) at senior competitions like the jump tournament and Channel 1 Cup, but really liked the junior Channel 1 Cup. Compare how fun the junior Channel 1 Cup was to junior world's. The Russian event is full of colour, bright and vibrant with enthusiastic crowds. One of the highlights of the season. Even junior Russian Championships had a great feel to it with decent sized crowds.

 

[AlexBreeze]

Konstantinova won't perform due to the decision of the organisers made after the rehearsals.

The rumour she is not the only one.

 

[Jeanie19]

My motivation is not the same this year naturally with Valieva out, no Team Tutberidze skaters, no Tuktamysheva, and with the requirement to make each program relate to Russian culture much of the subtext will be lost on me as a foreigner.

But people can't mock it for instance giving everyone a prize. It's a fun tournament to watch retired skaters compete, or see current skaters in new images. It's a great idea. If the ISU did something similar and offered prizemoney they would have every top skater in the world appearing.

I thought the Russian fed got it perfect last season then strayed from what works. I suppose it is better than being conservative like the ISU. I wouldn't have had juniors (more so novices) at senior competitions like the jump tournament and Channel 1 Cup, but really liked the junior Channel 1 Cup. Compare how fun the junior Channel 1 Cup was to junior world's. The Russian event is full of colour, bright and vibrant with enthusiastic crowds. One of the highlights of the season. Even junior Russian Championships had a great feel to it with decent sized crowds.

Liza is supposed to skate here.

 

[icewhite]

Konstantinova won't perform due to the decision of the organisers made after the rehearsals.

The rumour she is not the only one.

my.
what a timing