PJ Kwong interviews Carol Lane on Gilles/Poirier, Solo Dance and more

[dorispulaski]

This Carol Lane interview with PJ Kwong is up on YouTube



It has so much in it! It was well worth listening to the whole thing.

 

[4everchan]

Immediately got picked up though as Coach Carol Lane gave me a shoutout at the end of Facebook live with PJ Kwong today. Beyond grateful.

this was a beautiful moment. I watched the entire interview... I never do that... especially when they are 50 minutes long ( I have a lot of short moments when I can create trouble, for instance on this forum, where i can post a thing or two.. then come back later.. but to have a full hour or almost to watch an interview is rare) in any case... It was lovely that Carol took the opportunity to mention you and what you do.
Gestures that come from the heart are so important in this world.

 

[4everchan]

I found particularly interesting Carol's take on
Solo ice dance
RD themes

Also, on the camaraderie between coaches. It's a must watch interview for ice dance fans ! Thank you for bringing it up. I am curious to hear what you think about Carol's positions on the two topics I listed above.

 

[dorispulaski]

I was particularly interested in Carol and PJ's discussion on what made a program or a team the best.

It reminded me of how much the guidelines for ice dance have changed over the years, and how our skaters today line up with the best traits of past champions.

They talked about how at the highest level, there are very few major errors. All the skaters can do all the steps. What differentiates skaters is bound to have a subjective component.

PJ said (more or less) that at this point in her life, the programs she thought were the best were those where at a distance of years, she could remember them clearly. She implied that though Papadakis & Cizeron were wonderful skaters, with great speed and flowing edges, she did not find many of their programs memorable.

Flow, sharp edges, and speed define one group of champions, like P&C, and before them, Grishuk & Platov. And I would put Guignard and Fabbri in that group. I respect them all, but I have never valued speed over being memorable.

There are those who excel at story telling (like Piper & Paul, especially well displayed in their Vincent & Wuthering Heights FDs). PJ grouped Torvill & Dean, Virtue & Moir, and Klimova & Ponomarenko in this group. These are her preferences. I too really value programs for being memorable, but there are more ways to be memorable than only story telling.

Creativity in movement and in what used to be referred to as creating unique shapes & pictures on the ice is another championship quality they did not mention. Torvill & Dean excelled at it. And so do Chock & Bates. When you increase the number of choreo moves & complex lifts in a program, you are just asking for C&B to earn high scores. In their FD, their opening pose, their assisted jump move and their candle lift all created memorable pictures. Their Snake Dance FD was one whole unforgettable set of pictures.

Another skill that is deemphasized now is the ability to be spot on the beat while maintaining unison, no matter how fast the beat is. Not every team excels at music with a quick beat. Davis & White were particularly good at it. This is a skill that in the past was key in Original Dances, Short Dances, and Rhythm Dances. And it is still a skill that I value highly. The dancers become a visible expression of the music to me. I still remember D&W's Giselle/ Yankee Polka SD with great fondness.

 

[dorispulaski]

I know very little about solo ice dance, except that men and women compete against each other. I am sure Carol was right when she said she could not convince elite solo dancers to try traditional ice dance. They loved their independence!

There are a number of retired or about to retire single skaters that I would like to see try solo ice dance. I am sure Patrick would be amazing, as would Jason. not to mention ice dancers without partners like Avonley Nguyen or Jean-Luc Baker, if Kaitlin does not return to ice dance.

As to next seasons' RD, I too am afraid it will be wall to wall disco.

OTOH, I am cheering for a Grateful Dead Dance Party (1970's) with some Deadhead Dancing

Maybe
Dancin' in the Street (1977-05-08)
and
Truckin' (1970)
and
Friend of the Devil (1970)

https://medium.com/@dancingguide/grateful-deads-street-dancing-d20e28327ac4

 

[dorispulaski]

What do the rest of you think about those topics?

 

[4everchan]

I was particularly interested in Carol and PJ's discussion on what made a program or a team the best.

It reminded me of how much the guidelines for ice dance have changed over the years, and how our skaters today line up with the best traits of past champions.

They talked about how at the highest level, there are very few major errors. All the skaters can do all the steps. What differentiates skaters is bound to have a subjective component.

PJ said (more or less) that at this point in her life, the programs she thought were the best were those where at a distance of years, she could remember them clearly. She implied that though Papadakis & Cizeron were wonderful skaters, with great speed and flowing edges, she did not find many of their programs memorable.

Flow, sharp edges, and speed define one group of champions, like P&C, and before them, Grishuk & Platov. And I would put Guignard and Fabbri in that group. I respect them all, but I have never valued speed over being memorable.

I agree with PJ about PC but their Fauré program is definitely memorable. For me, that's their masterpiece and I'd put it on the same level as some of the other great teams' masterpieces... for instance, the iconic Mahler by very young VM.

There are those who excel at story telling (like Piper & Paul, especially well displayed in their Vincent & Wuthering Heights FDs). PJ grouped Torvill & Dean, Virtue & Moir, and Klimova & Ponomarenko in this group. These are her preferences. I too really value programs for being memorable, but there are more ways to be memorable than only story telling.

I think that's why I can put PC's in there...emotion for me can be enough. No need for a story.

Creativity in movement and in what used to be referred to as creating unique shapes & pictures on the ice is another championship quality they did not mention. Torvill & Dean excelled at it. And so do Chock & Bates. When you increase the number of choreo moves & complex lifts in a program, you are just asking for C&B to earn high scores. In their FD, their opening pose, their assisted jump move and their candle lift both created memorable pictures. Their Snake Dance FD was one whole unforgettable set of pictures.

I didn't find CB's poses that unique this year. I liked them in previous programs better. The opening pose and candle lifts are things I believe were used before. Their stat lift was a miss. I agree their Snake Dance is very memorable. I liked their alien program too. From the rink, I'd just say that I would like their FD better if it were going in places... it felt quite static... which I wouldn't equate to figure skating, or emotion or story telling. I don't think I will remember much from that program in a few years from now.

I thought it was interesting when she mentioned that Piper and Paul are good story tellers but it can play against them... as it can be a "not again" type of thing or a "what? you chose a more abstract program?? " deal. In some ways, it's impossible to please everyone and it becomes a huge challenge in terms of what material they will propose, and gets more and more and more difficult with older, seasoned teams who have presented so many programs already.

Another skill that is deemphasized now is the ability to be spot on the beat while maintaining unison, no matter how fast the beat is. Not every team excels at music with a quick beat. Davis & White were particularly good at it. This is a skill that in the past was key in Original Dances, Short Dances, and Rhythm Dances. And it is still a skill that I value highly. The dancers become a visible expression of the music to me. I still remember D&W's Giselle/ Yankee Polka SD with great fondness.

Yes. As a LaLa fan, I am asking for faster and faster and better and better unison. That's where for me the Brits are not as good as some other teams. It's very apparent.

--------

Solo dance : It was interesting to hear how Carol said, that the good solo dancers have nothing to do with ice dance (couple) and that it would be very hard to convince them to switch. So in that sense then, the same gender ice dance may be the key to train young women who don't have a local partner in a more efficient way. I thought that solo dancers may transfer more naturally to ice dance but it seems that's not going to happen. I can see then more single skaters transferring to solo dance and I'd like to ask Bruce Waddell to go for it

Re the RD themes, I agree with Carol... If you want skaters to do Paso steps, just ask them to do Paso Doble... not to include the steps in some weird theme like it was for Samba this year... it is very restrictive creatively and it allows teams to hide their weaknesses... and I'd add perhaps even prevent very strong teams to show their strengths in traditional patterns.

Those were the things that I remember at this point. PJ is a great interviewer but also, it does help that these two have known each other forever !

 

[saine]

The conversation on solo dance was interesting with it being introduced as a category in Canada next season. Carol is right that there does need to be enough competition so it's not the same three skaters competing against each other all the time. And they can't go straight to Lake Placid to compete without getting some domestic experience first. It'll take some time to develop those competitions and to keep the potential competitors interested while it's happening.

I can see skaters doing solo dance in addition to another category in the beginning to keep their options open. I'm putting in another vote for Bruce Waddell for solo ice dance, he could compete singles at the same time.

 

[CaroLiza_fan]

I know very little about solo ice dance, except that men and women compete against each other.

Oh, don't get me started on this.

On the British domestic scene, there have always been separate competitions for the male and female Solo Dancers. That is the format that we British fans are used to. And as a result, these events that have combined results for the male and female Solo Dancers are totally alien to us.

But now, because the ISU have decided to go down the unisex route, the British Fed have had to change the format of their competitions to fall in line.

Here is the Entries / Results page for the 2023 British Solo Dance Championships:

http://iceresultsuk.org.uk/SoloDanceChampionships/2023/

The 2024 British Solo Dance Championships aren't until July, so here is the Entries / Results page for the Qualifying event:

http://iceresultsuk.org.uk/BIS-Qualifiers/MarchDance24/

Big difference in the number of competitions being held. And a lot of skaters missing out on the chance to get their moment of glory on the podium as a result.

Maybe it is just my cynical mind, but whenever I see competitions with combined results, I see organisers attempting to save money. If you combine results, you don't have to spend as much on medals, trophies, prize money, goody bags, etc.

So, when I was watching the Solo Dance part of the Maria Olszewska Memorial in Poland a few weeks ago, I was getting very angry with the format. And I was getting angrier as the event went on.

Here is what I wrote after the Senior Solo Short Dance:

The American boy started off holding out for a hero, but then he cut loose, footloose!

Sorry, it was too good an opportunity to pass up.

Actually, he wasn't holding back at all. He was really going for it.

He goes into a massive lead.

Still don't think it is fair to have boys and girls in the same competition. I much prefer the way that the British Fed does it, having separate competitions in Solo Dance like we have in Singles skating.

CaroLiza_fan​

And here is what I wrote the next day after the Senior Solo Free Dance:

And again, none of the girls could get close to the American bloke.

This is so unfair. If the competitions had separate results like they do on the British domestic scene, Megan PARNELL-MURPHY (GBR) would be walking away with a Gold Medal.

But it is Polish skater Julię ZAMORSKĄ that I feel really sorry for. She should be going back home to Silesia with a Bronze Medal. But, she is actually going away empty handed.

What ever happened to the drive to promote women's sports and women in sport?! It seems it got thrown out the window in an attempt to keep costs down. (Combining results = less prizes needing to be bought).

This is really angering me.

CaroLiza_fan​

Here is the last pararagraph of a post I made about a Polish boy and a Ukrainian boy that were supporting each other in the Basic Novice Solo Dance competitions, and who look so alike that I am convinced that they must be related in some way (they have different surnames):

It's just unfortunate that because of this ridiculous situation where the results are combined, they and the other boy at Basic Novice level are not going to win medals due to there being so many girls ahead of them.

CaroLiza_fan​

There was also an Adult Solo Dance competition, where a girl in her twenties and a guy in his forties were considerably ahead of the other two skaters, and scoring very similarly to each other in every segment. Here is what I wrote after the Basic Novice Level 1 Solo Free Dance:

You know, I have been impressed with Maja KOMENDA (POL). No doubt about it, she is a deserved winner.

And I loved her reaction when the results were announced. She started jumping up and down celebrating!

Fair play to the bloke, Piotr ŻUCHOWSKI (POL). He was close to her in every segment. But, unfortunately for him, little gaps build up to become a bigger gap.

I know I'm sounding like a stuck record, but he deserved a Gold Medal as well as Maja!

Again, I feel sorry for Oliwia RATAJCZYK (POL). She is the only skater that is going home without a medal, when by rights she should have a Bronze Medal in her pocket.

Intermediate Novices starting now.

CaroLiza_fan​

Maybe I'm just an old softie, wanting as many skaters as possible to get recognised for what they have done. But, I just don't think this unisex format is fair.

CaroLiza_fan

 

[4everchan]

Oh please ! There are so few men participating and they perform elements that are easily comparable... Just like in traditional ice dance, twizzles and steps are getting scored individually and as a matter of fact, it happens quite often that the women get higher levels than the men.

If this sport has any chance to get added to worlds or olympics one day, it should be unisex.. this is exactly what the IOC is hoping to see..with all the mixed diving and what not.

And don't get me started about nobody cares if it doesn't go "mainstream i.e Olympics" because actually, if ever it did become an Olympic sport it would get funded and seen. I believe sincerely that solo dance is perhaps the future of figure skating in terms of participation. Not everyone has the ability nor the body to jump quads... It's a sport that wrecks knees and hips like no other... Not everyone wants to be thrown or lifted... not everyone can afford the resources needed to train with a partner, especially at a younger age and development stage.

Let the boys compete with the girls. Seriously. If the young men won, didn't you think for one second that it's because he was better than the other participants ? At one point, don't you think that it is quite possible that a strong woman skater could beat a bunch of men too ? If anything, women may have better lines and extension which are needed in ice dance.

 

[CaroLiza_fan]

Oh please ! There are so few men participating and they perform elements that are easily comparable... Just like in traditional ice dance, twizzles and steps are getting scored individually and as a matter of fact, it happens quite often that the women get higher levels than the men.

If this sport has any chance to get added to worlds or olympics one day, it should be unisex.. this is exactly what the IOC is hoping to see..with all the mixed diving and what not.

And don't get me started about nobody cares if it doesn't go "mainstream i.e Olympics" because actually, if ever it did become an Olympic sport it would get funded and seen. I believe sincerely that solo dance is perhaps the future of figure skating in terms of participation. Not everyone has the ability nor the body to jump quads... It's a sport that wrecks knees and hips like no other... Not everyone wants to be thrown or lifted... not everyone can afford the resources needed to train with a partner, especially at a younger age and development stage.

I actually agree with practically all of what you are saying here. Except for the having it unisex bit.

Let the boys compete with the girls. Seriously. If the young men won, didn't you think for one second that it's because he was better than the other participants ? At one point, don't you think that it is quite possible that a strong woman skater could beat a bunch of men too ? If anything, women may have better lines and extension which are needed in ice dance.

As you can see from the comments I quoted, all of the possible scenarios played out at the Maria Olszewska Memorial:

• In the Seniors, it was the male skater that was way ahead of the female skaters.
• In Basic Novices, the girls had the advantage over the boys.
• In the Adult skating, the male skater and the top female skater were well matched.

I should add, the Intermediate Novice and Junior Solo Dance competitions were all girls.

But I still think that the top 3 female skaters and the top 3 male skaters at each level deserve to get recognition for their achievements. It must be so demoralising to put in the hard work, and then not get recognised for it.

CaroLiza_fan

 

[4everchan]

I actually agree with practically all of what you are saying here. Except for the having it unisex bit.



As you can see from the comments I quoted, all of the possible scenarios played out at the Maria Olszewska Memorial:

• In the Seniors, it was the male skater that was way ahead of the female skaters.
• In Basic Novices, the girls had the advantage over the boys.
• In the Adult skating, the male skater and the top female skater were well matched.

I should add, the Intermediate Novice and Junior Solo Dance competitions were all girls.

But I still think that the top 3 female skaters and the top 3 male skaters at each level deserve to get recognition for their achievements. It must be so demoralising to put in the hard work, and then not get recognised for it.

CaroLiza_fan

how is their hardwork not recognized ?

I guess you don't like women competing in car racing, equestrian or music competitions ? I think it's great that women and men can push themselves. The 4th placed skater, no matter if they are a man or a woman or intersex, has to improve to get a medal... that's all.

 

[CaroLiza_fan]

how is their hardwork not recognized ?

I guess you don't like women competing in car racing, equestiran or music competitions ? I think it's great that women and men can push themselves. The 4th placed skater, no matter if they are a man or a woman or intersex, has to improve to get a medal... that's all.

I don't have any problems with males and females competing together. I just want them to get rewarded and recognised for their efforts.

CaroLiza_fan

 

[4everchan]

I don't have any problems with them competing together. I just want them to get rewarded and recognised for their efforts.

CaroLiza_fan

rewards doesn't necessarily mean medals

with this line of thinking, what about having height categories for single skating ? You think it's fair that a guy who is 6'5" competes against one who is 5"5" ?

 

[CaroLiza_fan]

rewards doesn't necessarily means medals

But medals / trophies are a very visible way of showing it. As is standing on a podium.

CaroLiza_fan

 

[saine]

What appeals to me about solo ice dance is that it isn't divided by gender. Part of the reason Kaitlyn Weaver pushed for Skate Canada to change the definitions of partnerships for ice dance and pairs was for Timothy LeDuc, who is non-binary. They had to compete under a gender definition that is not their identity.

Solo ice dance includes those skaters who don't identify as a man or a woman and shouldn't have to force themselves to fit a gender category. Solo ice dance is just starting to have international competitions, it'd be better to have as many competitors as possible. That's more important than an unnecessary division based on gender.

 

[4everchan]

What appeals to me about solo ice dance is that it isn't divided by gender. Part of the reason Kaitlyn Weaver pushed for Skate Canada to change the definitions of partnerships for ice dance and pairs was for Timothy LeDuc, who is non-binary. They had to compete under a gender definition that is not their identity.

Solo ice dance includes those skaters who don't identify as a man or a woman and shouldn't have to force themselves to fit a gender category. Solo ice dance is just starting to have international competitions, it'd be better to have as many competitors as possible. That's more important than an unnecessary division based on gender.

 

[icewhite]

About the gender question: I believe it's really not so easy. On the one hand biological men do have an athletic advantage over women which will ultimately show in ice dance as well, even if their social gender is female. It's just that there are so many more women in the sport that the pool of women is just way bigger. Were there the same number of biological men and women the men would on average dominate and to say "the women just need to work harder" doesn't cut it - would you say the same to a female sprinter who is not able to reach the best men's times? On the other hand I asbolutely support integrating nonbinary/intersex people into the sport. For me it's really not easy to say whether there should be one category for all. I guess as long as the sport is so small it's all fine, but should it ever become a lot bigger (which I just don't expect) binary, biological born women would lose out, and it would be tough to make the decision that this is the way it is supposed to be. I would like to look for a completely different solution to organize the categories.

Well, on to the question of ice dance qualities: I much prefer the abstract dances. I think most of my favourite programs (not all of them) are such where I'm drawn into the flow of movement without a story. Storytelling is all fine however. I think it should simply not be a criterium for judging whether or not there was storytelling, whether or not I am attracted to this style. Technical abilities as shown by the skaters are what the programs should be judged on. Leave the rest to tv shows.

 

[4everchan]

About the gender question: I believe it's really not so easy. On the one hand biological men do have an athletic advantage over women which will ultimately show in ice dance as well, even if their social gender is female. It's just that there are so many more women in the sport that the pool of women is just way bigger. Were there the same number of biological men and women the men would on average dominate and to say "the women just need to work harder" doesn't cut it - would you say the same to a female sprinter who is not able to reach the best men's times? On the other hand I asbolutely support integrating nonbinary/intersex people into the sport. For me it's really not easy to say whether there should be one category for all. I guess as long as the sport is so small it's all fine, but should it ever become a lot bigger (which I just don't expect) binary, biological born women would lose out, and it would be tough to make the decision that this is the way it is supposed to be. I would like to look for a completely different solution to organize the categories.

I think the advantage men may have is over stated. In ice dance, lines, extension and flexibility are huge assets... and women have the edge here. You cannot compare this with track and field. Sorry. It makes no sense at all. You can already see it in synchro skating or artistic swimming... men exist there.. women are better usually.

Well, on to the question of ice dance qualities: I much prefer the abstract dances. I think most of my favourite programs (not all of them) are such where I'm drawn into the flow of movement without a story. Storytelling is all fine however. I think it should simply not be a criterium for judging whether or not there was storytelling, whether or not I am attracted to this style. Technical abilities as shown by the skaters are what the programs should be judged on. Leave the rest to tv shows.

I don't need storytelling myself. I like connection though. The best storytelling at worlds was very clearly done by Piper and Paul... Sure, they won the free dance but they won it on their technical merits.. YUP... can you believe it ? They lost PCS to Chock and Bates. So I don't think the judges reward storytelling that much really.

 

[icewhite]

I think the advantage men may have is over stated. In ice dance, lines, extension and flexibility are huge assets... and women have the edge here. You cannot compare this with track and field. Sorry. It makes no sense at all. You can already see it in synchro skating or artistic swimming... men exist there.. women are better usually.

Of course it's not track and field, but the physical strength of a skater makes a difference in skating and in how far they are able to shine, too. Like I said, as long as the sport is so small it's not a problem - that's also the case in artistic swimming I'm sure - how many boys do start with artistic swimming?
Anyway, the topic has been discussed often enough, so I'll just leave it at this.