ISU releases official agenda with proposals for 2024: age limits, jump limits and more

[gkelly]

Didn't Tara Lipinski only have six jumping passes? Was that because she could pack all the difficulty she needed in six or was six just the most common back then? If so, why did the women go up to seven in the first place?

In 6.0 era, even in the later years (late 90s/early 00s) when there "well-balanced free skate guidelines," there were no minimum or maximum total numbers of jumps or jump passes. Only limits on the number of repeated triples and later quads, and on the number of combinations/sequences.

So there could be a variety of different numbers of jump passes.

IJS placed a maximum number of each kind of element. In order to maximize scores, skaters attempted to fill all those available slots. Rarely they would fail to execute a jump pass at all in a given performance, but almost never would a skater intentionally plan not even to attempt an easier jump if they had another slot available.

 

[Mathman]

Speaking of which... there is a lot dedicated to Synchro, which I didn't anticipate.

I, for one, am glad to see it. The skaters on the top teams are quite accomplished, and at lower levels the sport offers something for everyone. This is a discipline where choreographers come into their own.

I don't know what, if anything, the ISU can do to generate fan interest. What I would like to see is a grassroots up push.

 

[TontoK]

I made an attempt to watch synchro once, at nationals, since we were there anyway, and it’s not for me.

I've watched a few performances on video, haven't seen it live.

I thought my lack of interest might be because there is so much to see with that many skaters on the ice, but then I watched solo dance (which definitely doesn't have a lot of skaters on the ice) and that didn't interest me either.

But there is a passionate fan base for both of these. Different strokes, I guess.

 

[4everchan]

I really fell in love with synchro. Watching 3 times world champions Les Suprêmes skate at the gala was amazing at Worlds. It's a completely different animal of course... but the shapes and patterns they do on the ice while being always in movement is amazing to watch. Intense training and dedication. I am happy Skate Canada features synchro at Nationals and trying to make a case for such an excellent sport. Seriously, if people like Artistic Swimming, why not synchro ?

 

[Mathman]

The pairing of synchro and solo dance is actually pretty interesting. They both provide alternate opportunities for performing and competing that are, perhaps, accessible to more athletes. My favorite musical is Chorus Lime. After spending two hpurs presenting each character as a unique indeividual, the closing number is "One... Singular Sensation" -- yet ironically what we see on stage is an ensemble of robots in gold tuxedos all doing exactly the same simple steps in unison.

Artistic (or sychro) swimming has a long history in terms of entertainment. In the 1940s Esther Williams, a competitive swimmer who would have been the favorite at the 1940 Olympics if the games hadn't been cancelled due to World War II, went on to become the "Mermaid Princess" and starred in a bunch of Hollywood Spectacular movies in which the grand scene was an elaborately choreographed group swimming number. There were also television specials in the 1950s featuring such content. I think it's cool that the ISU recognizes that there is more to skating than just fussing about whether a triple Axel should get 8 points or 8.5.

 

[icewhite]

Could you elaborate?
In this case I actually agree with the ISU. Apart from providing a rough framework (which they do), switching feds is none of the ISU's business. This is between the involved national feds which are all separate legal entities and might have different regulations. One might blame them for not thinking of the athletes.

Well if the ISU does not step in of course feds will try to keep their power over the athletes as much as possible. Yes, I do blame the feds, absolutely, but that does not help - I don't have any hope that they will act in the interests of athletes they will then loose. In the case of the ISU I would think that there is at least an incentive to have the athlete competing under any flag instead of being sidelined because they will at least still be competing, which should only benefit the ISU - but of course the ISU is far from independent from the feds.

 

[icewhite]

The pairing of synchro and solo dance is actually pretty interesting. They both provide alternate opportunities for performing and competing that are, perhaps, accessible to more athletes. My favorite musical is Chorus Lime. After spending two hpurs presenting each character as a unique indeividual, the closing number is "One... Singular Sensation" -- yet ironically what we see on stage is an ensemble of robots in gold tuxedos all doing exactly the same simple steps in unison.

Artistic (or sychro) swimming has a long history in terms of entertainment. In the 1940s Esther Williams, a competitive swimmer who would have been the favorite at the 1940 Olympics if the games hadn't been cancelled due to World War II, went on to become the "Mermaid Princess" and starred in a bunch of Hollywood Spectacular movies in which the grand scene was an elaborately choreographed group swimming number. There were also television specials in the 1950s featuring such content. I think it's cool that the ISU recognizes that there is more to skating than just fussing about whether a triple Axel should get 8 points or 8.5.

The thing is that "normal" single skating should also be about more than just the bv of certain jumps. While I agree that it's cool to have more "accessible" options for athletes who did not start out extremely young, do not have a partner or do not excel in jumping, I fear that should those two disciplines continue to grow and become more popular more people will say "well, if you can't do a triple axel by 10, then go do synchro or solo dance".

 

[gkelly]

The thing is that "normal" single skating should also be about more than just the bv of certain jumps. While I agree that it's cool to have more "accessible" options for athletes who did not start out extremely young, do not have a partner or do not excel in jumping, I fear that should those two disciplines continue to grow and become more popular more people will say "well, if you can't do a triple axel by 10, then go do synchro or solo dance".

They certainly wouldn't say that.

They might say "If you can't do a double axel by 10..." but still it's up to the skater whether to pursue singles skating (with the understanding that they're unlikely to reach elite levels) or to switch to a different discipline that doesn't involve jumping.

Under current rules, double axels are not required until junior level for the short program. Junior men are required to do at least one triple in the short program; junior women are not.

So there's plenty of time for a skater to compete at what the ISU calls basic novice, intermediate novice, and advanced novice without a double axel or any triples, and at junior without triples (or without many if male).

Sure, they wouldn't be winning medals, or international assignments unless they're from a tiny federation, but skaters are able to keep competing singles with only double jumps until mid to late teens, when they would age out of the ISU age/level divisions that don't require harder jumps.

In the US, novice (=ISU advanced novice), junior, and senior divisions are considered skill levels, not age levels. There are no age restrictions domestically at those levels. I have, rarely, seen 20- and even 30-somethings competing in novice.

The US also has a separate competition track called Excel that uses strict limits on what jumps are allowed at each level. Double axels aren't even allowed in any Excel level until senior level. (There are no short programs and therefore no minimum requirements except having passed the test for that level, or one level below.) It's not intended to be an elite track and therefore will never lead the international competition.

So in the US there are plenty of options for skaters to compete as singles skaters with double jumps only at any age. If they want to jump and can't do double axels or triples even as older teenagers, and certainly as adults, they have several options.

If jumping is not important to them, they have different options.

If they want to compete internationally and have the skating skills for that to be a reasonable goal but don't have harder jumps, then they might choose one of those other options, especially as solo dance grows as an international sport.

But if they're just in it for fun and personal challenge, they can continue as singles skaters if that's their preference.

 

[Mathman]

The other thing to mention about synchro is the team concept. The camaraderie and working toward a common goal that team sports encourage has value in itself.

 

[lariko]

All of this is nice and all, but synchro is still boring to tears to watch. People like team sports because it is a grueling completion between two teams with clear scoring. One crowd going on ice to do some lines, then the other crowd going on ice to do more lines is...I think it is like a mass for those long-abandoned figures. Nobody wants to watch figures. Kinda funny that someone decided figures times 16 is any better.

 

[icewhite]

They certainly wouldn't say that.

They might say "If you can't do a double axel by 10..." but still it's up to the skater whether to pursue singles skating (with the understanding that they're unlikely to reach elite levels) or to switch to a different discipline that doesn't involve jumping.

Under current rules, double axels are not required until junior level for the short program. Junior men are required to do at least one triple in the short program; junior women are not.

So there's plenty of time for a skater to compete at what the ISU calls basic novice, intermediate novice, and advanced novice without a double axel or any triples, and at junior without triples (or without many if male).

Sure, they wouldn't be winning medals, or international assignments unless they're from a tiny federation, but skaters are able to keep competing singles with only double jumps until mid to late teens, when they would age out of the ISU age/level divisions that don't require harder jumps.

In the US, novice (=ISU advanced novice), junior, and senior divisions are considered skill levels, not age levels. There are no age restrictions domestically at those levels. I have, rarely, seen 20- and even 30-somethings competing in novice.

The US also has a separate competition track called Excel that uses strict limits on what jumps are allowed at each level. Double axels aren't even allowed in any Excel level until senior level. (There are no short programs and therefore no minimum requirements except having passed the test for that level, or one level below.) It's not intended to be an elite track and therefore will never lead the international competition.

So in the US there are plenty of options for skaters to compete as singles skaters with double jumps only at any age. If they want to jump and can't do double axels or triples even as older teenagers, and certainly as adults, they have several options.

If jumping is not important to them, they have different options.

If they want to compete internationally and have the skating skills for that to be a reasonable goal but don't have harder jumps, then they might choose one of those other options, especially as solo dance grows as an international sport.

But if they're just in it for fun and personal challenge, they can continue as singles skaters if that's their preference.

My point was that I see a risk of "outsourcing" skating skills and "musicality" to solo ice dance completely. As if that's something that should not be as important for single skating as jumping.
I want (singles) figure skating to be a combination of it all and while I see that it's nice for people who do not want to do any jumping to have a discipline completely devoid of it, it can lead to strengthening the thought I already, for my taste, see too often: just go to ice dance if you are not a genious jumper.

 

[lariko]

My point was that I see a risk of "outsourcing" skating skills and "musicality" to solo ice dance completely. As if that's something that should not be as important for single skating as jumping.
I want (singles) figure skating to be a combination of it all and while I see that it's nice for people who do not want to do any jumping to have a discipline completely devoid of it, it can lead to strengthening the thought I already, for my taste, see too often: just go to ice dance if you are not a genious jumper.

Like, this is the last concern to have in the current anti-jumping hysteria that seized the ISU... to be fair, though, what good does it achieve to force the skaters who can't wrap a triple around into singles? Why fudge the rules to hurt the ones who can do quads? Just, really, let them compete in dance or synchro. Perfect solution. Everyone does what they can do well, and we get to watch what we actually want to watch, and ISU keeps a great, fair, competitive rule set that most effectively prevents the back-room dealing, instead of going back to the six point cheater paradise era.

 

[Mathman]

The other thing that synchro handles well is the maxim, "boys are welcome but not necessary" -- an attitude that I would heartily recommend to every young girl. Many synchro teams are all girls, but if a boy shows up for audition, that is taken in stride. The sport does not have a "boy's part" and a "girl;s part," and the boy is just another member of the team that does nopt stand out in any particular way.

Plus the costume designer gets to make uniform costumes in matching men's and ladies' styles.

 

[icewhite]

Like, this is the last concern to have in the current anti-jumping hysteria that seized the ISU...

Lol, there is no anti-jumping hysteria.

Never before has there been as much and as hard jumping in the programs, never before has there been such an emphasis on it. Toning it down a little bit again will certainly not be the death of jumping in figure skating.

Everyone thinks this is about Malinin - Malinin will not be affected. Just like Petrosyan would not be affected. They will still be able to do all their quads and quint attempts. It's (hopefully) an effort to actually try to get better programs.
It's not like the past has only been bright. I can hardly watch programs from the 90s because they seem so slow and empty and there is so much posing. I'm really not the person to say "everything was better in the past".
But I don't want figure skating to be jumping only.
I have expressed my shock here when Dikidzhi on his first stage of the "Russian Grand Prix" got 8.50 for a completely empty program with obviously insecure skating, visibly concentrating of getting through his step sequence level 2 without falling (he seems to be capable of doing a lot better, but I was like "wtf").

But maybe even more shocking to me are the scores Memola gets outside of domestic competitions. 7.5 to 8.5 for - what? Being tall? No, probably, having a 4Lz. Even if it looks anything but secure. Sorry for singling out Memola here, there are other examples. I could get over Trusova, because she was actually special in her jumping in the women's field. Also, her Olympic programs suited her extremely well and she skated them with power, speed and confidence.

But after seeing skaters supposed to be elite really struggling with not looking shaky when they just skate and getting high PCS for it, I think a slight correction towards "jumping is not everything" can really not be called anti jumping hysteria.
I fear people will still get 7.50 upwards in skating skills and interpretation just because they (half) landed their 4Lz.

 

[Mathman]

I could get over Trusova, because she was actually special in her jumping in the women's field. Also, her Olympic programs suited her extremely well and she skated them with power, speed and confidence.

I felt that way about Malinin's performance at Worlds as well.

 

[Mathman]

Like, this is the last concern to have in the current anti-jumping hysteria that seized the ISU...

There is no "hysteria" in the ISU or even among fans over proposed inconsequential changes to scoring rules.

As for synchro, some people like it, some don't. OK.

 

[4everchan]

My two cents :
Some musicians want to be soloists and train for that and become soloists.
Some musicians train as soloists but then, they are tired of mostly practicing alone, without much music sharing and they opt to play in orchestra.
Some musicians train as soloists but then, they are tired of mostly practicing alone, without much music sharing, yet, they prefer smaller groups so they have a bigger input (rather than the conductor making the musical decisions) and they opt for chamber music.

My point : all these musicians are trained early to become great musicians and they make choices based on what they prefer doing.
The stereotypes at one point were strong " so and so couldn't make it as a soloist so now, they are doing chamber music" until people realized that they are different animals and you better be good otherwise you won't make it as a chamber musician.

I dislike the stereotypes that we sometimes read in figure skating forums :

He does ice dance because he cannot jump...
They do synchro because they cannot do ice dance or singles...

Nobody does something that demanding because they absolutely cannot do something else.
Skaters do ice dance because they love it.
Skaters do synchro because they love it.

And BTW : Bruce Waddel was a junior star in ice dance who switched to singles (he was doing both) . He doesn't have the big jumps but he is still doing singles, probably because he loves it. Fiona Bombardier is a national senior medalist in singles. She was very promising. She tried pairs and fell in love with it... She is not doing pairs because she cannot do the hardest triples... As a matter of fact, her best jump is the triple lutz... She is doing pairs because she loves it.


I am fine if some people do not like non-jumping disciplines or synchro or whatever...

But if you have trained in anything in your life, you should be aware of the time, effort, dedication, resources required to train ANYTHING at a high level and it's not something people do out of SPITE (not being able to become world champs in singles). It's a choice. A preference. A dream.

 

[TontoK]

Whole post

You've made some excellent points here. I swam competitively throughout my teens. High school team, AAU team, etc. I was good, but I certainly wasn't Olympic level. or on track to be. I had one very modest scholarship offer, but I opted for an academic ride elsewhere.

Those were not wasted years. Fitness, purpose, belonging, goal-setting, time management, continuous improvement, win some - lose some - and accepting both with grace... a skillset for a lifetime.

Even now, in my 60's, I still lap swim once a week.

If solo dance and synchro offer this to young (and not-so-young) people, I'm all for it. I'm not necessarily interested in watching, but as I said before, different strokes for different folks.

 

[gkelly]

My point was that I see a risk of "outsourcing" skating skills and "musicality" to solo ice dance completely. As if that's something that should not be as important for single skating as jumping.
I want (singles) figure skating to be a combination of it all and while I see that it's nice for people who do not want to do any jumping to have a discipline completely devoid of it, it can lead to strengthening the thought I already, for my taste, see too often: just go to ice dance if you are not a genious jumper.

I'm sure you see that kind of dismissal all too often from fans -- just see the post immediately below yours.

I expect that if skaters themselves are getting that kind of feedback from their rinks or federations, it's much more nuanced than "just go to ice dance."

It would of course depend on the coach or on the federation. What I see locally in a club with many many recreational and average competitive skaters and a moderate number of elites, choice of discipline is driven by the skater's interests, not someone else's advice let alone dictates.

 

[lariko]

I fear people will still get 7.50 upwards in skating skills and interpretation just because they (half) landed their 4Lz.

Anyone leet gets above 7 and it doesn't matter what they did or didn't do in their program. I mean, I like Memola on ice. He is striking. 7.5 seems good to me for interpretation for him because he is different, even if it's his limbs and height. I am glad he gets higher marks than someone who doesn't stand out. It's great to see someone who is 6 feet show that figure skating can be done at that height, not just 5 feet 3".

Equally, nobody who saw Trusova live could possibly not see how animated and fiery her skating is next to literally everyone else before (my time) and/or since. Not to mention that Trusova and the rest of the Russian women continue to show that women can have jumping content that is the same as men's on the high level overall in juniors. It's great.

I am in favor of rewarding the exceptional stuff, versus pushing forward the only decent but all around. Exceptional talent must receive exceptional marks, particularly for things that nobody else can do.

Of course, it is hysteria, and of course it's anti-Malinin.

They propose to chop a jumping pass in singles and in pairs, greatly reducing the number of jumping passes we'll get to see and increasing the length of the segments of the program that do not have jumps.

They wouldn't give 4A BV it deserves for the absolute gorgeousness and difficulty of the jump.

Someone even proposed to increase penalties for a fall, making it pretty much the same as popping a jump, while a fall with a full rotation is >>> pop.

How's all that, taken together, minor?

Minor is taking penalty from 2A on the end of combos to equate them to triples and helps create more combos other than +2/3T--something that skaters enthusiastically implemented. Minor is messing with spins' features annually.

Cutting a jumping pass is not a minor alteration, particular when it's not balanced by proposals that increase focus on jumps and give something to those who want jumps in figure skating.

I think the ONLY rule in favor of having more jumps is taking Euler out of the count as a jump and permitting longer cascades. Where are the other balancing proposals in favor of more and bigger jumping? What about permitting cascades in SP, allowing women to jump separate 3A and quads in SP, allowing all 3 combos to be cascades? Russians showed absolutely gorgeous cascades in the Jumping tournament. So fun...would love to see like 4-5 jumps cascade as a program opener or closer instead of a long spin.