ISU releases official agenda with proposals for 2024: age limits, jump limits and more

[skatingfan4ever]

In defense of Patrick Chan, his first Olympics in 2010 was won by a man who attempted ZERO quads. They weren't worth enough points to be "worth it" in that version of IJS. And then, in 2011, Patrick shows up with 2 consistent quad toes and changes the game (literally) because he was doing quads while keeping his commitment to skating skills and choreography. So, people decided to do quads again to keep up with him. Dai, Javi, Yuzu, and the rest did only toes and sals for a long time, until Boyang came along with a consistent 4Lz. (Dai's attempted 4F at 2010 Worlds was 2-footed). Patrick did add a 4S in his last 2 seasons and landed a couple nice ones in competition. And then, through personal choice and circumstances (details of which we'll never know), he went back to 2 quad toes for his final season.

My point is, Patrick did not train as many types of quads because it was not expected/needed in competition in his heyday. Saying Patrick didn't do as many quads as others so he should somehow be discounted is like complaining that Paul Wylie never included a quad. Of course he didn't. Nobody has ever claimed Patrick is the best quadster ever, although he showed great consistency on his 4Ts overall throughout his career.

 

[TontoK]

I do not for one minute see why, if we are going to call someone a real champion and one of the best of the best, they should - both men and women - be expected to have both in abundance.

Did you miss the first part of my sentence? We have no argument with one another.

Well, let me heat things up again, since the thread seems to be petering out...

While I really want everything from everybody, I tend to value athleticism more in men and artistry more in women.

 

[TallyT]

Did you miss the first part of my sentence? We have no argument with one another.

Only in degree of conventional preferences, I guess, and there's nothing wrong with that. I just don't have either preference based on gender, it doesn't make sense to me except in historical societal context.

 

[Arigato]

^ By the way, that 2002 Men's Olympic event played a role in the development of the IJS. When the ISU was experimenting in 2002 and 2003 with the question of how to assign point values for various elements, they tested their systems in practice judging againgst what actiually happened. In one of the preliminary versions the Code of Points had Goebel as the winner. (Yagudin had planned two quads, but bailed on the second).

Well, this was clearly wrong, so the Code of Points had to be adjusted to make sure that it would work as intended in the future. I guess they are still working on it.

Yagudin made Goebel look like he learned to skate at Kmart. No hypothetical bean-counting exercise will change that. But it seems some will go to extraordinary lengths to cover for poor skating skills. No matter what.

 

[Arigato]

Nobody is winning with terrible skating skills. On the other hand, nobody (men) is winning wothout a quad, either.

Men's figure skating debates the importance of the quadruple jump

Controversy over Olympic champion who didn't complete a 'quad' means that Sochi Games should be full of them

www.theguardian.com

In 2016, Patrick Chan won 4CC with a combined total of three quads for the SP and FS. Boyang Jin had a combined total of six quads for the SP and FS, but still came in second.

 

[Mathman]

In defense of Patrick Chan,

First… I don’t think that Patrick needs any “defending.” No one is attacking him. Everyone has him penciled in among the all-time greats.

his first Olympics in 2010 was won by a man who attempted ZERO quads. They weren't worth enough points to be "worth it" in that version of IJS. And then, in 2011, Patrick shows up with 2 consistent quad toes and changes the game (literally) because he was doing quads while keeping his commitment to skating skills and choreography. So, people decided to do quads again to keep up with him.

I think that this part needs some context. At the 2010 Olympics eventual gold medalist Even Lysacek did not attempt a quad. But I don’t think that the reason was that “it wasn’t worth it under the IJS scale of values (9.80 points for a quad toe). Rather, Lysacek just didn’t have a reliable quad in his arsenal period. Although he had landed one or two in his life, when he tried out his program at that year’s U.S. Nationals he flubbed the quad attempt and as a result did not win the U.S. Championship heading into the Olympics.

A few skaters did land quad toes at the Olympics, notably Stphane Lambiel (two quad toes, one in combination), but he could not close the gap on the leaders because he did not have a triple Axel. Patrick did two triple Axels but fell on the second and ended up 4th in the LP right behind Lambiel.)

On the other hand, Takahashi (bronze overall), Abbott, Fernandez, and Joubert all attempted quad toes but fell. This was such an embarrassing outcome for the ISU that they immediately (May, 2010) put out a new scale of values that raised the quad toe to 10.3 (10.4 for a quad Salchow).

Evidently that provided enough incentive for skaters and coaches to get after it. Not only did Patrick come out like gangbusters at 2011 Worlds, so did Takahiko Kozuko, Artur Gachinski, Brian Joubert, Michal Brezina, Javier Fernandez, Ryan Bradley and Kevin van der Perrin. They all presented nice quad toes with positive GOE.

Kevin Reynolds tried a quad toe AND a quad Salchow, but was unsuccessful. (This was the famous event where Nobunari Oda planned 4T+3T and 3A+3T as his first two elements, but tripled the intended quad toe. This gave him 3T+3T and 3A+3T – he Zayaked and the 3A+3T was nullified altogether, netting him 0 points ).

 

[Mathman]

Men's figure skating debates the importance of the quadruple jump

Controversy over Olympic champion who didn't complete a 'quad' means that Sochi Games should be full of them

www.theguardian.com

In 2016, Patrick Chan won 4CC with a combined total of three quads for the SP and FS. Boyang Jin had a combined total of six quads for the SP and FS, but still came in second.

Like I said in the post you quoted, "Nobody is winning with terrible skating skills, and nobody wins without a quad." This illustrates my claim. You mentioned two skaters that do have quads and do not have terrible skating skills. (?)

 

[Mathematician]

Off topic:
It's not just about golds. Why have this very complicated system when all that matters are your hardest jumps?
And Shcherbakova had for instance superficial, bad gliding. But Levito has a very similar style and she gets overscored like her because people (judges) find that style balletic and feminine and want it in figure skating. Akatieva I don't really remember.

Many of the Asian skaters do not just have edges, but are also very fast and often they have rather clean and fast steps and turns. Not all of them have complex programs though. There are such and such.

Ok so I dont know how much you're trying to disagree with me versus just adding thoughts but I did say a couple times already that I agree the "system" can be improved and the jump deduction change is positive and I do really appreciate the other aspects of skating.

In fact in my time on this forum I've made it quite clear I watch skating almost exclusively for emotional reasons and dont care about raw athleticism on its own almost ever.

My point is just that there were more than one specific off-hand comments in this thread (which I could quote if needed but wont for now as not to start a war) which implied that there were skaters who only had jumps while lacking everywhere else and took glory from supposedly more deserving skaters who outshined the aforementioned quadsters in choreo, artistry, skating skills, etc... and this is generally a disposition too commonly held which I was disagreeing with.

Basically the new rule, like you said, is useful to pull from the raw athletic focus we might be seeing more of. But people latched onto it as some glimmer of hope against an imaginary group of artistic ignoramus quad gimmicks oppressing the poor true artists.

I btw also never said the Asians only have edges and lines, I just said its what they are superior in as opposed to others. They are good at many other things of course but point is quadsters are generally good at those too so its not really a point like people try to make it seem. For example glide is just one aspect of SS which is only 1/3 of PCS, so all things considered it means little in the grand comparison of Shcherbakova especially considering all of her other skills and quads as the final lock.

Nobody is winning with terrible skating skills. On the other hand, nobody (men) is winning wothout a quad, either. Everything in due measure.

The recent world championship LP is instructive, I think. If we look at the top 5, Malinin did 6 quads and got 1st, Fa did 4 quads and got 2nd, Kagiyama did 3 quads and got 3rd, Britschgi did 2 quads and got 4th, and Brown did 0 quads and got 5th.

Uno had a disaster of a skate and was out of the picture.

In program components, Malinin got low 9s, which is about what he deserved. Fa got mid 9s, which he deserved, Kagiyama got slightly higher mid 9s, which he also deserved. Britschgi not so strong, but OK in the mid 8s -- no quarrel there. Brown about the same as Kagiyama -- that was right, they were both outstanding. The Spanish judge gave Brown 10.00, 9.75 amd 9.75, which the other judges felt were too high. But then again he also gave 9.00, 8.75 and 8.75 to Brotschgi, so it seems to be just a case of generous judging.

So, what's the problem.?

Well, people might point to the fact that the differences between TES and PCS were 37, 25, 17, 9 and -8.5 for the top five. In other words the bigger the gap between a skaters TES and his PCS, the higher on the [podium he rises. Is there anything here to make us think that the "balanced program" concept is slipping out of balance?

Or we could look at it like this. Here are the number of TES points that the top 4 got for their quads, versus how many points they got for all other technical elements combined, including spins, footwaork and lesser jumps (such as a paltry triple Axel combo).

Malinin: quads 94, everything else 43
Fa: quads 57, everything else 59
Kagiyama: quads 47. everything else 64
Britschgi 26, everything else 68

Well, at least Fa was well-balanced between quads and everything else on the tech side.

By the way, the Assistant Tech Specialist was Terry Kubicka, the only skater ever to perform a legal backflip in Olympic competition.

Of course the ISU proposals under consideration do not address this issue -- if, indeed, there is anything that needs addressing.

I dont know enough about men to counter your numbers (seems legit, maybe there is an issue with men, I dont know), but in women I see no issue that "women without quads arent going to be winning" as long as quadsters themselves have (almost) everything else too (which they had and still do have).

And yea, I said "terrible" making it easy for people to keep up the back and forth but I might as well have said "below average" (at least). I just dont want to get specific with that because people will cry subjectivity on anything that isnt a jump (ironic actually).

 

[Anna K.]

I just dont want to get specific with that because people will cry subjectivity on anything that isnt a jump (ironic actually).

Oh, get specific, please! People will cry subjectivity exactly because you don't get specific when you talk about skating skills. These skills are thoroughly material. More than that, they take years to learn and those forumers who skate know it perfectly well. If you see somebody writing stuff like PCS is subjective, take a note: this person knows nothing about figure skating. There is one bullet (presentation) of around twenty that PCS judges can interpret subjectively. Everything else is as objective a skill as every jump on ice or anywhere. And, in this forum, you can talk about these skills and be understood.
Just saying.

 

[icewhite]

Well, let me heat things up again, since the thread seems to be petering out...

While I really want everything from everybody, I tend to value athleticism more in men and artistry more in women.

If only I had your courage I would give you a like.

Just let me fetch my petticoat and powder my nose so I can look pretty while you chop the wood for the oven. By the way, have you heard this new song La Bamba they are playing on the radio?

 

[TallyT]

By the way, what's the betting that the ideas that have gotten the most attention and frowns from all of us... are the ones that don't go through?

 

[Anna K.]

By the way, what's the betting that the ideas that have gotten the most attention and frowns from all of us... are the ones that don't go through?

What, did you mean that on-topic posts actually existed on this thread? Did you mean that I have to read through 11 pages to find them? OH NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

 

[icewhite]

Ok so I dont know how much you're trying to disagree with me versus just adding thoughts but I did say a couple times already that I agree the "system" can be improved and the jump deduction change is positive and I do really appreciate the other aspects of skating.

In fact in my time on this forum I've made it quite clear I watch skating almost exclusively for emotional reasons and dont care about raw athleticism on its own almost ever.

My point is just that there were more than one specific off-hand comments in this thread (which I could quote if needed but wont for now as not to start a war) which implied that there were skaters who only had jumps while lacking everywhere else and took glory from supposedly more deserving skaters who outshined the aforementioned quadsters in choreo, artistry, skating skills, etc... and this is generally a disposition too commonly held which I was disagreeing with.

Basically the new rule, like you said, is useful to pull from the raw athletic focus we might be seeing more of. But people latched onto it as some glimmer of hope against an imaginary group of artistic ignoramus quad gimmicks oppressing the poor true artists.

I btw also never said the Asians only have edges and lines, I just said its what they are superior in as opposed to others. They are good at many other things of course but point is quadsters are generally good at those too so its not really a point like people try to make it seem. For example glide is just one aspect of SS which is only 1/3 of PCS, so all things considered it means little in the grand comparison of Shcherbakova especially considering all of her other skills and quads as the final lock.

I just tried to answer the questions you had, maybe I misunderstood or misremember but I thought you asked if we could point out any faults of Shcherbakova or Akatieva.

In general it feels our (as in you and me) discussions will always suffer from us both using global terms and thinking we are talking about everything, when really we have different skaters, disciplines and countries in mind and are actually talking about different things. I don't even really think much about the Russian girls anymore, I never cared that much and now I only watch one or two programs here and there, while they are your main focus. Mine is on skaters who are now competing internationally, and it's mostly on men. The word "quadsters" is not really one that even comes up when I think about all these things, because I'm not really thinking about Petrosyan - Sakamoto, Hendrickx, but rather Kagiyama - Siao Him Fa - Memola - Rizzo - Yamamoto - Sadovsky etc. etc.
Of course the others are on my radar, too, somehow, especially international women and Russian men, but, well, mostly I want to see great international men's events I can fully enjoy. And in general I like the current judging system, my main beef with it is the execution/judging which will not even be discussed at the coming congress.

 

[TallyT]

What, did you mean that on-topic posts actually existed on this thread? Did you mean that I have to read through 11 pages to find them? OH NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Do you mean you do not hang on to every word of our deathless prose?

 

[icewhite]

By the way, what's the betting that the ideas that have gotten the most attention and frowns from all of us... are the ones that don't go through?

Which have gotten the most frowns from everyone? Are there any that would fit that criterion?

I think we can all live with the grammar corrections and a change of music rotation in the training groups.

The 0 for failed jumps seems to have some friends, but not enough to go through, neither among us nor the ISU.

The new age limits are heavily critisized by us, but I think they might go through in the sense that there will be more skaters available for pairs, and they also have their supporters here.

The choreo spin and the removal of the jump passage seem to have enough supporters here and in the ISU to go through, but I'm not sure they will come into effect immediately, although I think voting yes and then postponing their implementation would be the worst scenario. I hope that does not happen.

 

[4everchan]

What, did you mean that on-topic posts actually existed on this thread? Did you mean that I have to read through 11 pages to find them? OH NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

the reality is simply that we may talk ad nauseam about these proposals, like removing a jumping pass... or age limits or what not, but in the end, it's the Congress that will vote and only them. Take this thread as you wish : an opportunity to voice your opinions on these proposals, most of which may never be see the day, or wait for the actual Congress in June.

Some of us like to discuss. Read the 11 pages if you wish, or do not

 

[4everchan]

Which have gotten the most frowns from everyone? Are there any that would fit that criterion?

I think we can all live with the grammar corrections and a change of music rotation in the training groups.

+1 from me Go Canada LOL

The 0 for failed jumps seems to have some friends, but not enough to go through, neither among us nor the ISU.

That is not a proposal from the Congress.. just mine LOL the actual proposal is milder from the NL. . Go @4everchan

The new age limits are heavily critisized by us, but I think they might go through in the sense that there will be more skaters available for pairs, and they also have their supporters here.

there are plenty of pairs if you try to make them happen.. SO NAY FOR ME

The choreo spin and the removal of the jump passage seem to have enough supporters here and in the ISU to go through, but I'm not sure they will come into effect immediately, although I think voting yes and then postponing their implementation would be the worst scenario. I hope that does not happen.

I hope this one passes because it's the most likely to have a positive impact on the sport. + 1 from me

 

[icewhite]

That is not a proposal from the Congress.. just mine LOL the actual proposal is milder from the NL. . Go @4everchan

Lol, I've really lost orientation here.

 

[4everchan]

Lol, I've really lost orientation here.

welcome to the getting lost in the Edge threads club. We should get a special award for this Maybe the ISU Congress will nominate some of us for it next year.

 

[Anna K.]

Some of us like to discuss. Read the 11 pages if you wish, or do not

Oh, dear. Of course I do not wish and even if I did, I simply don't have that extra day of my life it would take. It was sarcasm.

But I certainly thank you for putting your best effort on being nice and invitational.