AIN Competitors, Coaches, and ISU Rules

[gmyers]

The reality is that the IOC imposed on the ISU to allow athletes the ISU was not willing to accept from the start. So the ISU came up with rules, and as you know, these rules do not make sense. Yes, it is absurd that ANY athlete would be denied coaching. Completely absurd.

Just as absurd as the Russian team (sorry the ROC team) keeping their bronze medal because the rules didn't specifically say that in the team event, the rankings/points would be reallocated as they always do in every other event.

Sorry but you can blame the ISU for the lack of smart rules which sometimes has helped the Russians... but at the same time, the IOC has its responsibilities here. The only way to make this logical, safe while taking care of all athletes present at the games was to keep the ban in place. When the IOC started to try to find compromises with the sports Federation, they opened a huge can of worms.

Yes, Adelia may suffer... but she will still qualify and still most likely win a medal and still will be celebrated as a huge hero when she gets back home. An even bigger hero now that she is denied a coach. That's also something the IOC didn't think could happen but it will happen. The publicity around this whole deal will once again compromise the competition of the other 31 women participating (I think it's 32 total right ? ) Just like it did for other reasons, 4 years ago.

Technically no one has a bronze medal. Isu is never giving it! And that went to the CAS. That wasn’t even isu.

 

[4everchan]

Technically no one has a bronze medal. Isu is never giving it! And that went to the CAS. That wasn’t even isu.

It went to CAS because the ISU didn't do their job to begin with.

ROC appealed ; they wanted gold
Canada appealed : they wanted bronze

CAS read the rules and said, well the ISU is just following their own stupid rules... or something like that
At least, that's the story I am sticking to.

 

[SubRosa]

Okay, than it's beyond ridiculous. I mean, everything about the whole farce is, but this is beyond farce. I am looking for word here. I am running out of vocab.

Edit: I'm going with the extravaganza of absurd

Byzantine? Kafkaesque?

 

[Mathematician]

Byzantine? Kafkaesque?

Kafkaesque suggests feeling lost and hopeless under convoluted bureaucracy, this is not that; this is not organized or complex at all. It is actually really easy to see through. It is disorganized, lazy, illogical, unprofessional, pathetic... Its just generally incoherent and disheartening. Indignant that the system behind a sport we love seemingly does not care at all about logical consistency.

 

[TallyT]

What seems clear is that the ISU has not and probably will not soon forgive Team Tut (and maybe Russia in general but Team Tut especially and Gleikhengauz is a big name there) for the mess and embarrassment of Beijing. Myself, I hear the sound of the world's smallest violin... for both sides.

 

[CaroLiza_fan]

Oh, dear. I don't want to be the OP of this new thread! Copy a few more earlier posts over!

But, since I am, I suppose I should take this opportunity to address the latest development.

Let's be brutally honest: this ban isn't about the war. If fighting with another country was the requisite for getting banned, there would have been lots of other countries banned too over the years. But they haven't. Because politics has no place in sport. Sport, and entertainment, is all about escaping from politics and the problems of real life. And this has been enshrined in the Olympic ideals.

This ban is about the doping. Making sure competitions are fair is the most important thing in sport. But the previous measures against the doping didn't work. It would be too embarrassing for the governing bodies to admit publically that they didn't work, so they are using the war as a cover story.

So, in that respect, banning members of the coaching team at a club that has questions hanging over it is correct.

But leaving an athlete with no support is not correct. An athlete that already has the eyes of the world glaring down on her because of the situation should not have to sit and get her scores on her own. At least let her have a family member sitting with her.

The thing that is making this embarrassing is that the way that the governing bodies are framing it in the context of the war means that the people the authorities want to ban can only be dealt with in their roles within the Russian and Belorussian teams. They cannot be touched in their roles with other teams.

That we have been seeing members of that coaching team with athletes representing countries other than Russia over the past few years makes a mockery of the whole supposed aim of tackling doping and questionable practices.

As ever, in their attempts to save face, the governing bodies have messed the whole thing up.

CaroLiza_fan

 

[lariko]

The problem is that the ban specifically states war, and a very specific, European war, not any other war in any other region. If it was doping practices, Belarusian athletes should not have had any measures against them, since in FS competitions in the last Oly doping was found in a Russian and a Spanish athletes only. Then an Italian who broke testing regime. In figure skating testing did not show systemic doping in any country. They are isolated cases no matter what speculations say. Speculations when not confirmed by evidence -- and in this case we have precise analytical data -- is a dangerous enterprise.

Petrosyan is an adult, but she is left in a situation where she technically is forced to be on her own completely, since every other option breaks one of the stipulated conditions. Technically, since Daniil G was reviewed and found to be not passing criteria for an AIN, he also cannot interact with Petrosyan from now on at all, because it will disqualify her for Olympics as the rules allow to disqualify at any point of time if the athlete broke the rules, including by association.

Why did Petrosyan even pass the criteria to start with, God only knows, since she was trained by the same coach as Valieva. Did they just clued in to this obscure fact?

Did RusFed create this by not going with Gorbacheva as their first choice? Yes.
Did ISU act vindictive and antagonizing? Yes.
Is FS in Olympics turning into another toxic sludge mess and this time in advance? Yes.

I am very much against this decision to slot in AIN athletes as it only symbolizes the ills that plague our world, and the worst about human nature, but none of the virtues the Olympics are supposed to uphold and by this point doesn’t, even remotely. ISU is gleefully contributing extra oil to this dumpster fire. To not aid and abet ISU and individual should avoid doing the same and ignore everything that comes next. Trust Petrosyan to handle it with grace and dignity.

 

[lariko]

Byzantine? Kafkaesque?

I wouldn't insult Byzantine. Others did enough of that over the centuries.

 

[Minz]

I don’t want to get too much into this, but they weren’t banned for doping, and it wasn’t even just for starting the war.

From my understanding, it was when they started the war - during the Paralympics. The broke the Olympic truce and therefore got banned. If they had waited a few weeks, they would still be here.

 

[dorispulaski]

There is a flag for these AIN athletes

​

I wonder if anyone will make use of it?

 

[CaroLiza_fan]

The problem is that the ban specifically states war, and a very specific, European war, not any other war in any other region. If it was doping practices, Belarusian athletes should not have had any measures against them, since in FS competitions in the last Oly doping was found in a Russian and a Spanish athletes only. Then an Italian who broke testing regime. In figure skating testing did not show systemic doping in any country. They are isolated cases no matter what speculations say. Speculations when not confirmed by evidence -- and in this case we have precise analytical data -- is a dangerous enterprise.

I agree that the way the Belorussian athletes got dragged into this situation seems very unfair. If it is really about doping, they weren't involved in any of that. And if it is about the war, other countries that have aided Russia discretely, and now lesss discretely, haven't been banned or anything.

I admit I have not been happy with the way I worded the opening sentence abut the doping, and have changed it a few times since posting. I originally said just "doping"; then changed it to "systematic doping allegations"; then changed it to "systematic doping". I have now changed it back to what I was originally.

Petrosyan is an adult, but she is left in a situation where she technically is forced to be on her own completely, since every other option breaks one of the stipulated conditions. Technically, since Daniil G was reviewed and found to be not passing criteria for an AIN, he also cannot interact with Petrosyan from now on at all, because it will disqualify her for Olympics as the rules allow to disqualify at any point of time if the athlete broke the rules, including by association.

Petrosyan may technically be an adult, but she is still a teenage girl in a high pressure situation (made even more high pressure by the rules she is there under). She needs some kind of support.

But my goodness, I didn't even think of the ramifications of him not getting passed. That is going to make training over the months to come so difficult for Adelia. She won't be able to train at her club. She can't temporarily train at a different club in case she comes into contact with somebody who has not been passed. The only solution is that she will have to hire out a rink privately and train all on her own (probably after-hours). Can you imagine the financial implications, and the mental implications, of that?!

How are you supposed to get ready for a Major Championship in those conditions?

I think it was you, but whoever it was that said that the whole thing has been set up for her to fail is correct.

Why did Petrosyan even pass the criteria to start with, God only knows, since she was trained by the same coach as Valieva. Did they just clued in to this obscure fact?

Did RusFed create this by not going with Gorbacheva as their first choice? Yes.
Did ISU act vindictive and antagonizing? Yes.
Is FS in Olympics turning into another toxic sludge mess and this time in advance? Yes.

I am very much against this decision to slot in AIN athletes as it only symbolizes the ills that plague our world, and the worst about human nature, but none of the virtues the Olympics are supposed to uphold and by this point doesn’t, even remotely. ISU is gleefully contributing extra oil to this dumpster fire. To not aid and abet ISU and individual should avoid doing the same and ignore everything that comes next. Trust Petrosyan to handle it with grace and dignity.

As you have said many times, the way the whole thing has been handled has been a farce.

And none of it is in keeping with sporting (and specifically Olympic) ideals.

CaroLiza_fan

 

[lariko]

Petrosyan may technically be an adult, but she is still a teenage girl in a high pressure situation (made even more high pressure by the rules she is there under). She needs some kind of support.

Of course. And if she was older she still would have needed a support of a coach like every other athlete on the Olympic level of competition. With every organization in the world consisting of many, many professionals and multiple nationalities, a teenager is left holding the bag of maintaining a modicum of decorum and Olympic spirit. I had never been a particular fan of Adelia Petrosyan, and I don't drink alcohol, but I will drink to her to shoulder this task, because somebody has to.

Olympic truth also had been since broken since Russian betrayal of peace principles by other nations who didn't pause their wars during the Olympic truth as was the custom since the ancient Olympic games. I actually support Russia being banned from the Olympics -- along with other warring nations -- if the principles are upheld. In my view, the correct course of actions is specifically ban Russia from the Olympics, EU and WC, but allow the commercial tournaments participation (Challengers, JGP and GP). This conveys the message of peace and upholds sportsmanship, reducing harm to athletes as individuals.

History only proved the hypocrisy of politicians when the athletes were forced to not attend 1980 and 1984 Olympics. The bitter, bitter irony of USA retracing SU's past in martial attempts to root out medieval tribalism in a region dead-set to stick to medieval tribalism and only medieval tribalism... it was the athletes who suffered the consequences in the narrow Olympic context. Can it be any more on the nose? It's been only 45 years!

In respect to doping, yes, yes, I too miss times when Brezhnev dressed Onishchenko down and stripped him of his titles for cheating without mincing words... however, there is a sane approach. It is to increase randomized testing of Russians. The testing is accurate enough to pick up anomalies in Valieva's sample when they were reasonably expecting her to be tested (since she was almost sure to medal in RusNats). So, honestly, they are not that good at dope. If the athletes are tested 5-6 times a year randomly like Trusova was, and have to carry financial burden of it, that solves the problem in a way that takes guesswork and emotions out of the equation. And it is in the Russians' interests as well if by any chance one day they decide that data speaks louder than rhetoric.

 

[CaroLiza_fan]

I had never been a particular fan of Adelia Petrosyan, and I don't drink alcohol, but I will drink to her to shoulder this task, because somebody has to.

Because I haven't been following Russian domestic events apart from Nationals (there is enough other skating to keep up with!), I haven't seen enough of Petrosyan to have formed an opinion on her. But, I do have strong opinions about her club (i.e. all the staff should be permanently banned).

Nevertheless, because of the way the governing bodies have acted, and because of all the obstacles that have been placed in Petrosyan's way, I want her to succeed too. So, I will be joining you for that non-alcoholic drink.

CaroLiza_fan

 

[lariko]

Because I haven't been following Russian domestic events apart from Nationals (there is enough other skating to keep up with!), I haven't seen enough of Petrosyan to have formed an opinion on her. But, I do have strong opinions about her club (i.e. all the staff should be permanently banned).

Nevertheless, because of the way the governing bodies have acted, and because of all the obstacles that have been placed in Petrosyan's way, I want her to succeed too. So, I will be joining you for that non-alcoholic drink.

CaroLiza_fan

To Petrosyan, integrity and sportsmanship (and the footnote-reduced Belorussians).

 

[midori green]

How can ISU notify about a coach only one week prior to the competition? The athlete approvals were done awhile ago. Did Daniil just find out his neutral status applocation was not approved? Was an original approval revoked due to some recent action? Has he known for awhile but just now made ot public? What a mess.

 

[AlexBreeze]

She won't be able to train at her club. She can't temporarily train at a different club in case she comes into contact with somebody who has not been passed. The only solution is that she will have to hire out a rink privately and train all on her own (probably after-hours). Can you imagine the financial implications, and the mental implications, of that?!

Nothing of this is officialy prohibited though. In fact, Adeliia is with Daniil at a training camp.

 

[CaroLiza_fan]

Nothing of this is officialy prohibited though. In fact, Adeliia is with Daniil at a training camp.

Well, that is a relief that her training won't be affected.

But, what does him not being passed actually mean then? Is it just that he can't accompany her to the competitions?

If that is the case, it makes everything look rather silly. She can't associate with other skaters that haven't been passed, but she can spend all day every day with a coach that hasn't been passed.



CaroLiza_fan

 

[Mathematician]

...politics has no place in sport. Sport, and entertainment, is all about escaping from politics and the problems of real life.

Do you reallyyyyy believe that though? Like if you were being mega mega super duper honest? You don't think international sport is inextricably a government funded mass propaganda operation? Are you sureee governments are funding all those programs just to be nice and give us some fun?

 

[gmyers]

Danny g associated with banned Valieva in some way:

But Danny g is not banned

Petrosian is free to associate with someone who was banned for associating but who is not banned themselves

Danny g problem is in the past somewhere he associated but it’s not in the present but even if it was Danny g is not the problem Valieva is.

As long as Petrosian is not coached by Valieva it’s fine for her

 

[CaroLiza_fan]

Do you reallyyyyy believe that though? Like if you were being mega mega super duper honest? You don't think international sport is inextricably a government funded mass propaganda operation? Are you sureee governments are funding all those programs just to be nice and give us some fun?

I believe it very strongly.

Politics here in Northern Ireland is very divisive. So, apart from the GAA, all sports make a point of staying completely clear of politics so as not to alienate anybody.

For example, when golf came back onto the Olympic programme, Rory McIlroy opted not to enter because he didn't want to have to choose whether to represent GBR or IRL, because he knew whichever one he chose, it would alienate half of the population back home. But, the next Olympics, he was pretty much forced to enter, and opted for IRL.

I suppose it is easy for sports to stay out of politics here because there is no such thing as government funding. The government finances are so bad that none of the departments are getting anything near what they need, and are actually having to make cuts. So, there is no money for non-essential things like sport.

The lack of money for sports has caused massive controversy recently because the UK and Ireland are hosting Euro 2028. But due to lack of funding to re-build the only stadium here that would meet UEFA requirements, Northern Ireland is not able to host any matches. And we have lost the benefits that host nations have in qualifying,

But, geting back to the point, yes, I do really believe that politics has no place in sport.

CaroLiza_fan