Should quads per program be limited to balance artistry?

[DizzyFrenchie]

and then, there are the summer festivals/master classes, the competition fees, the clothing (not as expensive of course as figure skating costumes but my first real tux, a million years ago cost me 800 dollars (custom made so I have room in the shoulders to play but well adjusted everywhere else because you need to look good) and it never ends...

the other issues for young musicians is that they need to practice. Those who can afford it do not need to work part-time or take summer jobs. But when you have to work to fund your studies, you also end up not having as much time to practice so you are constantly feeling behind or constantly working = no social life.

Also, let's not forget the price of instruments The better you are, the more expensive it gets.

So yeah. trust me. My parents did what they could. I did the rest by myself (and was lucky enough to win a lot of scholarships and prizes) but in the end, my parents never thought this would be my career and would have preferred I did something much more stable.

Lucky for me, the time I was interested in girls never came LOL...and my passion was strong enough to keep going when it became harder and harder. But yeah, in my field, and also with the people I met from sports ( I was a swimmer too) the parents who are hardcore pushy because they want "return on their money or prestige" is not even 1 per cent. Also, in all my friends and colleagues from youth, I am the only one still making it a career. That's a lot of people who are doing other things now and are happy, and have children doing music... not for the glamour but because it's such a wonderful life experience for children. It gives so much more than money and prestige. Discipline and perseverance, a sense of achievement, pride, all the experiences from studying abroad (musicians do like skaters and find mentors all over the world), etc. I wouldn't change my life at all... Sacrifices, still today, because of the atypical schedules and very very long hours of work... but yeah, I am happy. My parents are happy though still would prefer it if I were a physician or an engineer


So, from my experience, whether it is sports, arts, performing arts, anything like that, most parents still see it as extra-curricular activities... and are willing to pay more and more and more as much as they can, while their kids who started out just for fun develop into the elite. They keep paying because they see how happy their children are. Not because they want their kids to bring home a medal... In the end, I'd say that many parents would prefer that their kids pursue more secure options. So it's never seen or almost never seen as a way to get a return on investment or glamour or prestige or to boost a CV for college applications. I am certainly not saying that there are no parents at all who see things like that. I am saying that it's very minor.

Other people may have different experiences and that's fine with me. Mine was certainly not about money and prestige.

Regarding the experience that gives anything performing as long as the child is eager to succeed and anxious they may not, I would say that it's invaluable in oral exams, and no mock oral exam can make up for it, even with the best help from mock-oral-examinators (khôlleurs). I don't know if there are many in North American typical higher education, in any case I'm sure that professional life brings some such situations, but in France it's the general case in most demanding ways of studying. If you had your first and only attack of panic while on stage at 5, 6 or maybe 7, if you know that you can have a little slip (often costly) but cannot, in any case, let yourself go into panic or inattention, you still have to perform something very demanding, sometimes in spite of outside perturbation; when, a decade or more later, you're confronted to an oral examination or any similar situation, and know that you can have a little "well... herr..." here or there which you've never had been allowed in your performing experience, you become the attentive yet relaxed and responsive candidate all juries are dreaming of, instead of the shivering, sweating candidate on the verge of fainting which they often get; and, yes, it's expecting a return on investment, but this return on investment is part of what we may call adult life preparedness and it's also a part of what parents have to do.
Please excuse me for this completely out-of-topic digression.

 

[Skating91]

Figure skating as a hobby is a totally different subject and not relevant to the discussion.

It costs far more to do figure skating as a non-hobby, not just monetarily but also in time expenditure and the logistics of needing to home school the kid, and those parents are almost always treating it as an investment. The return on investment is not necessarily money but PRESTIGE. At the very least these parents aspire for their kid to reach the level where they will be seen on TV and be able to use their competitive results as a top-tier extracurricular to get into the best colleges possible.

The new age rule kills that path for most people, not only in what the parents are willing to do, but also in the experiences the skaters are getting. If teenagers are never allowed to compete at the highest level, then how motivated will they be to continue in the sport? Not very motivated. It also stunts their growth as performers. Would Denna Stellato have ever returned to the sport to do pairs, and with the performance foundation she possesses, if she'd never had the wonderful experience of getting to compete against some of the best people in the world at 16 years old? I don't think so.

The new age rule definitely helps skaters from wealthier countries, where parents are more able to subsidise their child's hobby until their late 20's. Whereas I think in some countries, it's seen as something you do as a child then move onto something else in life whether making money in ice shows, coaching, studying, a career, getting married, having children.

The ISU wants skaters to continue skating throughout their 20's, but they offer ZERO incentives for people from less wealthy countries to do so. The ISU expect young adults to give up an education or career for what is it $40k if you win the world championships? What would $40k even cover?

Only people of extreme privilege can give up their 20's for no money, no education, for the chance to win a medallion painted gold.

Of course, a lot of people don't talk about this because it's embarrassing to admit to be subsidised for their parents in their 20's, especially to this degree.

 

[4everchan]

Regarding the experience that gives anything performing as long as the child is eager to succeed and anxious they may not, I would say that it's invaluable in oral exams, and no mock oral exam can make up for it, even with the best help from mock-oral-examinators (khôlleurs). I don't know if there are many in North American typical higher education, in any case I'm sure that professional life brings some such situations, but in France it's the general case in most demanding ways of studying. If you had your first and only attack of panic while on stage at 5, 6 or maybe 7, if you know that you can have a little slip (often costly) but cannot, in any case, let yourself go into panic or inattention, you still have to perform something very demanding, sometimes in spite of outside perturbation; when, a decade or more later, you're confronted to an oral examination or any similar situation, and know that you can have a little "well... herr..." here or there which you've never had been allowed in your performing experience, you become the attentive yet relaxed and responsive candidate all juries are dreaming of, instead of the shivering, sweating candidate on the verge of fainting which they often get; and, yes, it's expecting a return on investment, but this return on investment is part of what we may call adult life preparedness and it's also a part of what parents have to do.
Please excuse me for this completely out-of-topic digression.

One more expense to add for many performing artists : performance anxiety therapy.

 

[Mathman]

... oral exams...,

One more expense to add for many performing artists : performance anxiety therapy.

I once had a PhD student from China who had been caught up in the Gang of 4/Cultural Revolution/Purge of Intellectuals frenzy in the 1970s. He had spent several years in a "re-education camp" where his daily routine was to be summoned before a military panel to confess his crimes against the state (one of which was that he had translated a clandestine mathematics textbook from English to Chinese and circulated it among students at his university.)

When conditions eased up and he was allowed to leave the country to study abroad, he came to us for graduate school. He did fine in every aspect of his studies except that he absolutely could not stand for an oral exam. He went completely to pieces and froze up, unable to make a sound. Finally we had to make special arraignments to substitute an extra written exam for the oral exam requirement.

 

[TontoK]

My thanks to @4everchan for your response to my post about my son.

It's funny that you mentioned the tuxedo, because that may have been the straw that bankrupted the camel.

The symphony thing? What 12-year-old REALLY needs a custom-made tuxedo? I mean... if the shoulders won't be correct in a rental, can't he walk out in it and then take it off to play? It was as though I suggested using the Mona Lisa for target practice.

 

[Arigato]

The ISU expect young adults to give up an education or career for what is it $40k if you win the world championships?

Only people of extreme privilege can give up their 20's for no money, no education, for the chance to win a medallion painted gold.

Countless skaters get a degree while even competing at the highest level. It's not an either/or situation. Ilia is a part-time student as we speak. I think Adam may have just finished his degree, come to think of it. Kaori Sakamoto got her Business degree in 2023. (This is not an invitation/opportunity for people to talk about Yuzu's 2020 degree for 67 pages. Chill out. )

 

[Mathman]

Actually, I don't think that the iSU has any "expectations" one way or another about skaters pursuing an education. Not their wheelhouse.

 

[Mathman]

(This is not an invitation/opportunity for people to talk about...)

Is it OK if I mention that Michelle Kwan once joked that she "went to college on the ten-year plan," eventually ending up with a Masters degree from the Fletcher School of International Law and Diplomacy at Tufts University?

 

[yfan1]

Actually, I don't think that the iSU has any "expectations" one way or another about skaters pursuing an education. Not their wheelhouse.

OTOH, I think they bring up a salient point. Figure skating is too expensive a sport, and an even less popular one in the countries they're speaking about. It makes much more sense to me to speak about how participation in poorer countries would be (or is) affected, than how stage parents may no longer send their kids to figure skating.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

And maybe we should for the pursuit of artistry and beauty! While we're at it, give zeroes to step sequences with stumbles, falls, hopped turns and/or ugly postures.

Lol. You’re going to get a lot of zero point elements, especially as you start getting lower than the elite senior level.

I do think certain lower value elements like a step sequence or spin could deserve zero or a Basic level, for a fall as the skater doesn’t take a huge hit to their tech score. Lol but giving zero to a step sequence that hopped a turn, come on. Have you ever figure skated or even skated? Do you think it’s so easy to avoid errors or stumbles, even for elite skaters?

Maybe you’re just joking but if not, think about what you’re saying. A successful quad with +GOE is about 13 points. And you’re saying if they step out they deserve ZERO points? LOL why on earth would people train difficult elements anymore with that kind of risk?

 

[gkelly]

I do think certain lower value elements like a step sequence or spin could deserve zero or a Basic level, for a fall as the skater doesn’t take a huge hit to their tech score.

Depends on the content of the sequence. If they fall on one of the required difficult turns, they're going to lose levels anyway. Assuming they even had the content and quality to have a chance at higher levels to begin with.

The base value for Level Base is 1.50, and for Level 1 is 1.80. So if that's the highest level you qualifying for and you get -5 GOE for the fall (50% off), the total contribution of the step sequence to the TES is less than 1.00. And then with a 1.00 fall deduction, the net effect on the score is negative.

But if you're Patrick Chan and you already accomplished all the requirements for Level 4, with good quality, before losing balance and falling later in the sequence, then you get credit for all the good stuff you already did before losing GOE and the 1.00 fall deduction.

 

[yfan1]

The base value for Level Base is 1.50, and for Level 1 is 1.80. So if that's the highest level you qualifying for and you get -5 GOE for the fall (50% off), the total contribution of the step sequence to the TES is less than 1.00. And then with a 1.00 fall deduction, the net effect on the score is negative.

This is actually bad IMO, and I'd be in favour of doing something to make sure they don't shake out to negative values. (applies to any element out there - if there's an attempt, then at least it deserves *some* positive credit, in my book. Unless we're talking about waxels or something)

 

[gkelly]

This is actually bad IMO, and I'd be in favour of doing something to make sure they don't shake out to negative values. (applies to any element out there - if there's an attempt, then at least it deserves *some* positive credit, in my book. Unless we're talking about waxels or something)

This is also true if you fall on a single jump or a double other than the axel. Or downgraded triple other than the axel.

At lower levels the fall deduction is lower. But juniors falling on doubles or downgraded triples is pretty common, and they get 1.00 deduction for the first and second fall. (More off for third and subsequent falls.)

In the TES, you can only lose half the base value of the element. So as long as the element counted as something, you earn at least 0.2 (for 1T or 1S, or 2T<< or 2S<<) in your TES.

Then the fall deduction is separate. And now higher than 1.00 per fall for more than two falls.

Plus (minus) additional points off the PCS, although this is at the discretion of the judges and we don't know if they're subtracting from what they were planning to give (e.g., for a fall at the end of the program) or just lowering the component score, by an unspecified amount.

Except at the very highest levels, where PCS are capped. Most skaters would never have been considered for 9.00+ scores in the first place, so the difference between, e.g., 4.25 vs. 3.75 will not be obvious to us as specifically due to falls.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Depends on the content of the sequence. If they fall on one of the required difficult turns, they're going to lose levels anyway. Assuming they even had the content and quality to have a chance at higher levels to begin with.

The base value for Level Base is 1.50, and for Level 1 is 1.80. So if that's the highest level you qualifying for and you get -5 GOE for the fall (50% off), the total contribution of the step sequence to the TES is less than 1.00. And then with a 1.00 fall deduction, the net effect on the score is negative.

But if you're Patrick Chan and you already accomplished all the requirements for Level 4, with good quality, before losing balance and falling later in the sequence, then you get credit for all the good stuff you already did before losing GOE and the 1.00 fall deduction.

Yeah I understand with a fall the rest of the sequence might be good. I’m not advocating for a zero but I know sequences tend to give auto GOE to the faves.

Also to clarify I was more saying a zero points for a major error on a spin or step sequence is way more justifiable than zero points on a big ticket jumping pass (especially for a stepout/two foot/minor error).

 

[gkelly]

Yeah I understand with a fall the rest of the sequence might be good. I’m not advocating for a zero but I know sequences tend to give auto GOE to the faves.

But why are they "faves"? Typically because they are good at the things judges value, even if many fans don't.

Also to clarify I was more saying a zero points for a major error on a spin or step sequence is way more justifiable than zero points on a big ticket jumping pass (especially for a stepout/two foot/minor error).

It's very easy to get zero points for a major error on a spin, if the error happens on the entry to the spin, or at the change of foot if one was required, or if there just end up being not enough revolutions in positions that count. And if you do enough revolutions that count as a spin before the major error but end up with Level 1 or Level Base, but the major error is a fall, then you'll end up with less than 1.00 for the spin and a fall deduction, so negative net effect on the score.

With spins, once you stop spinning, or put weight on your other foot when you're not supposed to, the spin is over and nothing that happens afterward will count.

With step sequences, though, the sequence doesn't automatically end when there's a major error. It's allowed to get up from a fall and finish the sequence. (And given the prevalence of knee slides etc. in step sequences these days, sometimes the tech panel needs to review to determine whether a loss of balance when the skater was already down on the ice counts as a fall or not.)

Even if falling on a step sequence did invalidate everything the skater does after they get up, that would be bad news for a skater who fell early in the sequence and hadn't accomplished any features yet, or enough steps and ice coverage to count as a step sequence at all.

But a fall at the end of a sequence wouldn't invalidate everything that the skater had already accomplished before the error. Same as a fall at the end of a spin wouldn't invalidate everything that had already been accomplished before the error.

Or a fall on a jump+2A+waxel sequence wouldn't invalidate the base value of the first jump or the 2A that were each landed successfully, even if the negative GOE will be 50% of value of the hardest jump.

 

[Mathman]

These examples of an element earning a negative score show why we should not mix multiplicative factors with additive terms willy-nilly in a scoring system . . In principle a skater could earn more points (0) by staying home in bed than by participating in a skating contest.

But I do understand why falling down on the ice is regarded as something more fundamental than being short of rotation or omitting a level feature. To get back to basics... "Look at me! I can skate all the way across the frozen canal!"

Then you fall on your butt halfway across and make a fool of yourself.

"Look at me! I can jump up in the air and land on my feet!" No, you didn't.

"Look at me! I can trace out a heart shape and my sweetheart's initials with my skate blades."

Then your feet get all tangled up and you go splat.

 

[Mathman]

Here is what's cool about the -5 to +5 GOE thing.

Let's say you have the world's most beautiful quad jump and expect to get +5 GOE. Your opponent does the same quad, but it is as terrible as yours is wonderful. He gets -5 GOE. This gives you the margin over your rival of the entire base value of that element:

(BV + 50%BV) - (BV - 50%BV) = 100% BV.

Now suppose your weak (or unlucky) rival also gets an under-rotation:

(BV + 50%BV) - (80%BV - 50%(80%BV))) = 110%BV

You have gained more than the full base value of the jump in your head-to-head match-up (a lesser amount if you don't beat him quite so decisively, like + 3 to -3. Falls are a little different, but for a quad a one-point deduction is about an extra 10%).

That is to say, it is the quality of the jump that is paramount. I, for one, approve.

 

[Blades of Passion]

So it's never seen or almost never seen as a way to get a return on investment or glamour or prestige or to boost a CV for college applications.

Why do you keep making statements about something you don't have experience with? You didn't grow up in the U.S. and haven't been in the environment with these people. Skating is absolutely seen as an outlet for glamour and prestige, the costumes and focus on performance inarguably already put it closer to things like being an actor or pop star than most other sports. Historically it's also been one of the few sports women were allowed to do while still remaining "classy", and while those sentiments have decreased in recent decades, an element of it still exists in certain sects of society.

But regardless of those socio issues, it's extremely common that parents in countries like the U.S. are aggressively pushing for their kids to be materially successful, and not just for the benefit of the kid's future, but because they want to "show off" their kids. Reaching a notable level in a performance art or sport (which skating is both of) is absolutely something parents will throw money at if they can and hope to gain a "return" on, because even if the kid doesn't make it all the way to stardom (something pretty much everyone wants, if given the option), it's a form of necessary extra-cirricular that they need anyway for their college apps.

(and certainly grades and entrance tests are more important than extracurricular achievements )

Not really. There's certainly a minimum level of good grades and test scores that colleges are looking for, but amongst the many people who already have that, what really matters for getting into the "top" colleges is the x-factor. If you would like to further educate yourself on the subject, I recommend this very good documentary for starters - Try Harder!

 

[yfan1]

Why do you keep making statements about something you don't have experience with? continued.: (You didn't grow up in the U.S...)

Because the world isn't the United States, and most people won't be advocating for rules based on what the United States wants.

You also went out of your way to misrepresent 4everchan's post:

In the end, I'd say that many parents would prefer that their kids pursue more secure options. So it's never seen or almost never seen as a way to get a return on investment or glamour or prestige or to boost a CV for college applications. I am certainly not saying that there are no parents at all who see things like that. I am saying that it's very minor.

They allow for there being some parents who do believe this, but most don't.

Any further questions?

 

[gkelly]

Why do you keep making statements about something you don't have experience with? You didn't grow up in the U.S. and haven't been in the environment with these people.

I did grow up in the US. I have been a member of 3 different clubs (2 of which have produced a world champion at some point) in 3 different states, and I have met and interacted with club officials and skaters/parents at many others.

I have met some of the people you are describing. But they have been far from the majority.

I've also met talented skaters who had to drop out early because their families couldn't afford elite skating, or because they'd made it as far as they were likely to (including international competition but a world or Olympic team didn't look likely) and moved on to continue their education. As well as many many skaters who were never aiming to be elite in the first place.

Of those who did reach elite levels, those whom I've volunteered with, or volunteered with their parents, seemed pretty down to earth. But often wealthy enough to support their kids' dreams up to the point where they maxed out their talent. Or the parents were coaches.

I.e., one size does not fit all.