Should quads per program be limited to balance artistry?

[yfan1]

In the women’s discipline? Uh yeah. In Korea it’s huge.

I am not seeing any indication of it, but sure.

If you simply mean Kim, she was massively successful, and fame followed (and I'd argue a lot of marketing and direction from her Canadian team to boot, to lay that groundwork). Nobody else has come close to that success or fame, and it seems most Korean skating fans tend to complain about funding and KSU's shenanigans even now. That is not the foundation of a particularly attractive or relevant sport in an Asian country. Generally, Korea focuses on its rivalry with China in speed skating in winter sports. That is popular there.

There are no ice shows in Korea, as an example. Last ones seem to have been held in 2019.

I'm sure more people are taking up skating in Korea than they were during Kim's time, but that's not much of an indicator of anything. Skating is a niche sport in Asian countries, outside Japan.

 

[msteach3]

I'm not generalizing. Why are you for some reason trying to deny the effects of capitalism that are present throughout the entire world?

It doesn't necessarily matter about where someone lives, people are capable of educating themselves on world matters without actively living in every country. What matters is when people try to make statements that certain issues don't exist,

Are you insinuating capitalism is a bad thing? If so, your world view needs further research.

 

[TallyT]

Are you insinuating capitalism is a bad thing? If so, your world view needs further research.

Actually capitalism is a bad thing. Problem is that - humans being, well, human - pretty much every alternative come up with to date is worse so countries have to cobble together a mess of bandaidy fixits for it and/or them.

And this is so we are risking backing all splatty... well, you know over tip on again ...

 

[gkelly]

Other than figure skating, what sport does a guy "retire" at 22? I don't see 22 as much of a "grown man" when you can't even buy alcohol in the U.S. until age 21.

Remember that when Wood skated -- really up through the 1980s -- figure skating was an "amateur" sport. Not only were there few opportunities to earn money while competing, but most ways of earning money that had anything to do with skating or sport or capitalizing on one's sporting fame risked rendering the athlete ineligible to continue to compete in Olympic-track sport.

I am not familiar with details of other sports. But I would expect that, in the days when the Olympic movement required strict amateurism, it was quite common for athletes in those sports to retire early, especially if they had already achieved their athletic goals, if even coaching for money would have caused them to lose eligibility.

Hence, the concept of "turning pro" if one wanted to earn money by using their sport-related skills with the knowledge that they would no longer be eligible for Olympic-track sport, or just "retiring" if they were ready to move on to a career outside their sport.

Those who were independently wealthy or able to earn a living in other careers (plus enough to cover training) could continue training and competing, but most couldn't afford decades of training expenses especially if their families were already in debt from their youthful careers.

 

[Mathman]

Other than figure skating, what sport does a guy "retire" at 22? I don't see 22 as much of a "grown man" when you can't even buy alcohol in the U.S. until age 21.

Well, you know, that was back in the 1960s when 22-year-olds were expected to move out of their parents' homes, get a job, etc.

As for athletes, I think that playing professional sports qualifies as "having a job." I don't think that Lebron James' parents are paying the bills any more.

Anyway, Tim Woods explicitly said that in his own mind, his pride just didn't allow him to beg his parents to sign up for four more years.

 

[Mathman]

Actually capitalism is a bad thing.

Plutocracy is a bad thing. Capitalism is neither good or bad, as long as it is not allowed to run amok.

 

[TallyT]

Plutocracy is a bad thing. Capitalism is neither good or bad, as long as it is not allowed to run amok.

I'm more cynical, I think... I don't believe any system can be more than a makeshift muddle of good and bad ideas. It's one of the prices paid for being only human.

 

[Mathman]

I think it [limiting quads] would encourage more time practicing and perfecting other areas of skating, if those other areas of skating were a larger part of the overall score. Restatement of the obvious.

That is not obvious to me. I would not count on limiting quads to lead to more artistically satisfying programs.

OK, that's back to the theme of our program.....

I will do my best, but sometimes I can't help myself.

 

[Mathman]

OK, now all you posters from Korea have sparked my interest about the popularity of figure skating in that country, as opposed to speed skating.

Here is a list of the "Ten most famous Korean skaters of all time," as measured by something called the "Historical Popularity Index" (HPI). I don't know exactly what this is, but evidently having one's autobiography translated into many different languages weighs heavily.

Anyway, Yuna Kim is #1 (HPI 54.33, 44 languages), followed by speed skaters in positions 2 through 10.

Greatest South Korean Skaters | Pantheon

Discover the 32 most famous South Koreans skaters in history. Explore notable skater profiles from South Korea ranked by historical significance.

pantheon.world

 

[yfan1]

OK, now all you posters from Korea have sparked my interest about the popularity of figure skating in that country, as opposed to speed skating.

Here is a list of the "Ten most famous Korean skaters of all time," as measured by something called the "Historical Popularity Index" (HPI). I don't know exactly what this is, but evidently having one's autobiography translated into many different languages weighs heavily.

Anyway, Yuna Kim is #1 (HPI 54.33, 44 languages), followed by speed skaters in positions 2 through 9.

Greatest South Korean Skaters | Pantheon

Discover the 32 most famous South Koreans skaters in history. Explore notable skater profiles from South Korea ranked by historical significance.

pantheon.world

I'm not Korean - but will say that, funnily, Hyojun now skates for China as Xiaojun.

Kim, I believe, is still rated as a top celebrity in Korea, not just top/most influential athlete. So her being most popular skater of any variety is not altogether surprising.

 

[RobinA]

Should the number quads per program be limited to balance artistry? No reason to "out" any skaters in particular, but I feel so much emphasis is being put on the TES for all skaters when artistry should also be a major part of the package.

Also, where do you stand?

If I never see another quad I would be very happy. That said, yes, I think they should be limited.

 

[TallyT]

Yuna certainly increased the popularity of the sport in Korea (okay, it was next to nothing before her, so anything was an increase) as we see in the number of Korean girls currently making a splash and all citing her as inspiration. Although he is not one of the very top gold medal names, Junhwan (who has looks, artistry, charisma and a public profile) seems to be inspiring some boys too. It's got a way to go, of course and if the women keep doing well, it very much may keep going, there may be more that those starting can look up to.

It also happens in Russia (Plushenko, whether we like him or not, and the Team Tut phenomenon). Many of the Japanese girls cite Mao the same way, Dai and Shoma also have been inspirations and Yuzuru of course is a huge one for girls and boys, there and elsewhere. This is normal - even necessary because sport is about people - to have heroes to try to emulate. I have small relatives who watch their cricket or AFL heroes with starry eyes and dream of the Sydney Cricket Ground, the Ashes, the Grand Final. No one tells them they can't dream.

 

[Magill]

Yuzu and Yuna, on their part, had their own icons to live up to and try to outgrow eventually, Plushenko and Michelle Kwan respectively. It's just the way it goes, generation after generation passing on the admiration and the challenge to their successors. Not everyone will equal or even outgrow their heroes, sure, but those who will often become legends themselves.
And wasn't Mao Shimada named after Mao Asada as her mother was a huge fan? Now, that's some legacy to live up to.

 

[yfan1]

And wasn't Mao Shimada named after Mao Asada as her mother was a huge fan?

If so, she got the name wrong...

 

[Skating91]

Other than figure skating, what sport does a guy "retire" at 22? I don't see 22 as much of a "grown man" when you can't even buy alcohol in the U.S. until age 21.

Of course it's a grown man at 22. Most of the skaters hanging around for season after season not winning big prizemoney or being sponsored, are all reliant on their wealthy parents to subsidise their full time hobby.

I think it parts of the world it is seen as something you do as a teenager then move on with life (could be performing in shows, an education, career, becoming a parent, etc) unless you're still on top beating everyone.

It's not like tennis if you're a top 100 player you can have a decent life from the sport, top 10 you can be incredibly wealthy. If a 22 tennis player was still relying on their parents to subsidise almost 100% of the full time hobby, then the parents would probably say maybe it's time you went in another direction in life unless you want to support yourself. We have our own things we want to do in life.

 

[Mathman]

About skaters hoping to strike it rich, I remember this quote from Dorothy Hamill about the 1976 Olympics. "It was either win the gold medal and become a millionaire or get silver and go back to being a secretary in Chicago."

 

[Mathman]

If so, she got the name wrong...

Do you mean that the two "Mao's" are not the same in Japanese, but that they both translate into English that way?

 

[yfan1]

Do you mean that the two "Mao's" are not the same in Japanese, but that they both translate into English that way?

Yep.

Mao Shimada: 麻央
Mao Asada: 真央

Clearly, they must be read off the same way in Japanese as well, for Shimada's mother to be picking that. But it's interesting how she picked a different way of writing it, if Asada was the inspiration.

 

[Blades of Passion]

I know enough about capitalism

Certainly doesn't seem like it to me, unless you ideologically believe that money should be the most valued thing in existence and that it's totally fine for the world to exist on endless consumption and extreme disparity.

Anyway, in your opinion, it's the common attitude around the world that parents aren't urging their children to choose a path that will make them a decent living, and that it's easy for most people to self-fund their children into their 20's in an expensive activity like competitive skating? I believe I'm well enough researched and have seen enough to know that's false.

nobody cares about "stardom" in skating in most Asian countries.

EVERYONE cares about "stardom", if they are putting their time into an activity that rewards needing to climb a social ladder (which is what any competition is). People want to reach the top of the hill they are putting their time into and be recognized for it. Doesn't matter if it's a totally niche thing that almost nobody knows it and won't make someone any money - people still feed off of the social/emotional capital gained by being considered "at the top of their game".

With the new skating age rule, we are now preventing people from even being on the field and having the chance to be seen as a legitimate participant, and we are asking for an extra 4 years worth of expenses in order for people to chase the Olympics. The math isn't hard to see: less people are going to participate. Singles skating is not a sport that rewards trying to peak in your late 20's or onward.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Certainly doesn't seem like it to me, unless you ideologically believe that money should be the most valued thing in existence and that it's totally fine for the world to exist on endless consumption and extreme disparity.

Anyway, in your opinion, it's the common attitude around the world that parents aren't urging their children to choose a path that will make them a decent living, and that it's easy for most people to self-fund their children into their 20's in an expensive activity like competitive skating? I believe I'm well enough researched and have seen enough to know that's false.



EVERYONE cares about "stardom", if they are putting their time into an activity that rewards needing to climb a social ladder (which is what any competition is). People want to reach the top of the hill they are putting their time into and be recognized for it. Doesn't matter if it's a totally niche thing that almost nobody knows it and won't make someone any money - people still feed off of the social/emotional capital gained by being considered "at the top of their game".

With the new skating age rule, we are now preventing people from even being on the field and having the chance to be seen as a legitimate participant, and we are asking for an extra 4 years worth of expenses in order for people to chase the Olympics. The math isn't hard to see: less people are going to participate. Singles skating is not a sport that rewards trying to peak in your late 20's or onward.

Okay so if your goal is to reduce the prospective expenditures/expenses for these kids/parents to get to the Olympics then we should reduce the weighting of PCS instead of reducing the weighting of TES/amount of quads. Because almost every skater takes multiple years (at least 3-4 senior seasons) for their PCS to develop to a point where they can compete at the highest levels - and the only way they can fast track to better results is by having the technical goods that bump up their base value. The very existence PCS only disadvantages these up and coming Olympic hopeful skaters and forces them to spend more years and more seasons developing their artistry — much to the chagrin of their debt riddled parents/team hoping for a flash in the pan Lipinski or Baiul or Scherbackova who retires in their teens after reaching the echelon of the sport.

So what is it then? Should we have a system/rules that makes them have develop artistry over time but in that time they accrue greater expenses/debt, or a system that helps them accelerate their success by learning the big point-getting tricks to offset underdeveloped artistry so that they can make it to the Olympics faster and save their parents some cash in the long run.

And please most parents aren’t so delusional that they think suddenly their skater is going to win the Olympics or even World medals. Skaters are allowed to have dreams and pursue them. But a skater outside of the top 20 thinking they can suddenly win the Olympics is a pipe dream. And an age rule shouldn’t be the thing standing in the way of a skater/parents making an informed decision. Most parents aren’t like “you have until 14 to make the Olympic team or you're done… oh wait they increased it by four years? Never mind we can’t afford to train you that long. End of skating.”

Should Mao Shimada or Lia Chao stop because of age restrictions? Did Mao Asada stop becoming a legend because she wasn’t old enough to go to Turin 2006 in spite of quite likely winning had she gone and done all her content? Plenty of skaters have missed the age restrictions and gone on to have very successful careers.

In the case of Mao if she had been able to compete in the 2006 Olympics and won gold, having replicated the GPF right before where she trounced the faves with her technical ability.. we might not have gotten to see her potential. Oh, but think of all the expenses she would have saved not having to compete for the next 11 years!