Should quads per program be limited to balance artistry?

[Arigato]

Why are you trying to devalue the artistry that has been show by younger people? Very strange, and historically you're dead wrong.

Why are you devaluing artistry in general - regardless of age?
Pretending every teenager who simply wears skates is Da Vinci is Da Problem.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Michelle Kwan wasn't doing 3axels and quads as a pre-teen

So what? The new age rule DOES NOT STOP THAT.

The only way to "slow people down" in attempted tech is to directly limit the jumps that are allowed in competition at certain ages. This has not been done. Nobody is being protected. We are simply losing a large amount of competitors at the senior level and stunting the growth of the performance side of the sport.

Why are you devaluing artistry in general - regardless of age?
Pretending every teenager who simply wears skates is Da Vinci is Da Problem.

You're the one devaluing artistry, not me. Nobody is "pretending every teenage who wears skates" is Da Vinci. An absolutely absurd strawman.

 

[yfan1]

You're not saying anything here. They wouldn't have shown more longevity by being kept out of Seniors. For anyone who was a "flash in the pan" at a single Olympics, they never would have competed in more than 1 Olympics, had they even managed to get there at all after being held back when they were younger.

It means something rather simple: longevity has a lot more going on with it than just when someone debuted on the senior circuit.

Note how the only two relevant skaters in your list of four happened to compete in seniors before the rule change to 15 years happened. You want to go back to that old rule?

And, no, it's not "trivial" that the people with the most longevity are the ones who were allowed to compete when they were very young. This directly shows how important it is to give people as much experience as possible and tell people "we believe in you and you deserve to be here". That's what most everyone in life needs to succeed and reach their potential. And of course the other rewards that come with obtaining success.

Yet, somehow, between Tuktamysheva and Kostner, I seem to remember a lot of bombing, injury, mental weakness, and for that matter, poor performances that were propped up by the judges.

I'm guessing you aren't interested in the last part happening, at the very least.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Michelle Kwan's Lyra Angelic is commonly cited as the height of artistry in singles skating. She would not have been allowed to compete that program with the new rules, nor her programs beforehand which were already getting 6.0's. There are countless other examples.

Stop with the ageism. Young people are full of emotion and ambition and intellect and energy. They deserve to be allowed to compete, if they want to. They deserve to be treated as equals.

Lyra Angelica was in Kwan’s 2017-2018 season, so she was 17 by then. So I’m not sure your point.

 

[gkelly]

She turned 17 in July, so a few days too late for the July 1 cutoff

 

[TallyT]

Errr, juniors can compete. No one is stopping them compete. I watched a whole JGP of them competing and loved it a whole lot more than the seniors.

In pretty much all the sports I vaguely know of (to be fair said knowledge is invariably vague) there are separate competitions for juniors and seniors, the question (which is yet again OTT this thread is resembling a plate of manic alien spaghetti) is at what age. And that is always arbitrary, it was when 15, it is now when 17/

And before anyone thinks I am all in favour of the latter - I simply want to watch and see - remember my man was also one of those who also went senior at 15.

 

[Arigato]

You're the one devaluing artistry, not me. Nobody is "pretending every teenage who wears skates" is Da Vinci. An absolutely absurd strawman.

Carry on with "The world will end if they aren't seen" agenda. It's not a convincing argument.

 

[Blades of Passion]

between Tuktamysheva and Kostner, I seem to remember a lot of bombing, injury, mental weakness, and for that matter, poor performances that were propped up by the judges.

What is your point? Without the experience they had has youngsters, they might have been even more inconsistent later on, in addition to never having the cherished performances at major competitions on their resume that they were able to achieve at a young age.

Note how the only two relevant skaters in your list of four

All of them are relevant. Your statement trying to discount Tukt and Kostner is bizarre.

Hanyu, Chan, Fernandez, and Lambiel all competed as seniors internationally at 15 years old and had long careers, btw, and Takahashi, Joubert, and Shoma at 16. Malinin can also be added to the list if he stays in for at least another 4 more years. EVERY male world champion this century who had a long career was able to start getting senior experience earlier than they'd now be allowed. Hanyu at 16 delivered one of the best programs ever with his R+J. What a shame it would be if that season and world medal had never existed for him.

Errr, juniors can compete. No one is stopping them compete.

Competing in juniors provides far less reward and attention, and they are treated differently and not expected to show the same level of artistry and maturity as senior level competitors. The psychological affect of holding someone back like that is a very real thing, in addition to simply not getting the experience of being surrounded by senior level peers.

Carry on with "The world will end if they aren't seen" agenda

Yet again, that's not what was said. The discussion is about what's better for figure skating, and the evidence points to "letting people compete in seniors at 15 is beneficial".

 

[HeadBanger]

I'd sooner they get rid of these combo's with axels tagged on... those are just ugly

 

[TallyT]

Competing in juniors provides far less reward and attention, and they are treated differently and not expected to show the same level of artistry and maturity as senior level competitors.

And we won't have the sorry spectacle of people putting on a dozen not just rose-coloured but rose-dunked-and-glued-on-with-wishful-thinking glasses and trying to insist that Shcherbakova's die away airs, Kostornaia's posturing, Medvedeva's endless mugging (look at the archives right here and elsewhere for all of these) and now Shimada's fixed baby beauty pageant smiles are the peak of innately mature, perfected artistry and deeply complex emotion

I think - like teenagers in plenty of other sports who don't get to go senior before they have even reached puberty - they'll survive if they are at all worth it.

 

[yfan1]

Hanyu at 16 delivered one of the best programs ever with his R+J.

He was 17... To which you will probably say the age rules would have prevented him from competing in seniors that season, and I'll simply say if not that year, then the next year.

There's no point in arguing about this with you, since you're convinced that in no way, shape or form can 'artistic experience' be obtained in any other manner than competing in seniors, and in general you use any weak evidence to justify your points (or no evidence at all, like with Stellato). You can't even justify why that's not possible on a national level. You think a competitor would be less stunned by Hanyu in Japan?

You want to watch them compete, then appeal to the ISU and enjoy yourself?

What is your point? Without the experience they had has youngsters, they might have been even more inconsistent later on, in addition to never having the cherished performances at major competitions on their resume that they were able to achieve at a young age.

You're not going to get it, but my point is that you're exhibiting some sort of magical thinking.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Errr, juniors can compete. No one is stopping them compete. I watched a whole JGP of them competing and loved it a whole lot more than the seniors.

In pretty much all the sports I vaguely know of (to be fair said knowledge is invariably vague) there are separate competitions for juniors and seniors, the question (which is yet again OTT this thread is resembling a plate of manic alien spaghetti) is at what age. And that is always arbitrary, it was when 15, it is now when 17/

And before anyone thinks I am all in favour of the latter - I simply want to watch and see - remember my man was also one of those who also went senior at 15.

But THE WORLD NEEDS TO SEE THEM!

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Hanyu, Chan, Fernandez, and Lambiel all competed as seniors internationally at 15 years old and had long careers, btw, and Takahashi, Joubert, and Shoma at 16. Malinin can also be added to the list if he stays in for at least another 4 more years. EVERY male world champion this century who had a long career was able to start getting senior experience earlier than they'd now be allowed. Hanyu at 16 delivered one of the best programs ever with his R+J. What a shame it would be if that season and world medal had never existed for him.

Lmao, do your research, sis.

Jeffrey Buttle (2008 World Champion) had his first senior international season in 2001-2002, at the age of 19.

 

[Arigato]

But THE WORLD NEEDS TO SEE THEM!

HA!

 

[Blades of Passion]

Jeffrey Buttle (2008 World Champion) had his first senior international season in 2001-2002, at the age of 19.

He didn't have as long of a career as the other guys. Read what was written instead of creating a false prompt.

He was 17

No, Hanyu was 16 when he debuted his R+J program on the Grand Prix (and would have been ineligible for that whole season). He also won a Silver medal at 4CC the previous season; a very big boost to a skater's confidence. You can't just havewave these things away and say "Hanyu's career would have gone no differently anyway and Brian Orser would have started coached him in the 2012-2013 season without any senior track record".

since you're convinced that in no way, shape or form can 'artistic experience' be obtained in any other manner than competing in seniors

I never said it's "the only way", but it's clearly something that promotes the artistic growth of skaters, and to date there's absolutely never been someone in juniors whose artistry I would rate as high as people who've been allowed to compete at the senior level.

If you think an individual being treated like they belong has no meaningful impact on their self identity, then I think your experience and worldview is incredibly isolated.

 

[yfan1]

No, Hanyu was 16 when he debuted his R+J program on the Grand Prix (and would have been ineligible for that whole season). He also won a Silver medal at 4CC the previous season; a very big boost to a skater's confidence. You can't just havewave these things away and say "Hanyu's career would have gone no differently anyway and Brian Orser would have started coached him in the 2012-2013 season without any senior track record".

You have pretty major reading comprehension issues don't you?

But yes, let's look at all historical instances, and pretend what "might have" happened back then, is exactly what will happen now. Not flawed and fallacious at all.

If you think an individual being treated like they belong has no meaningful impact on their self identity, then I think your experience and worldview is incredibly isolated.

Quite honestly, I have no interest in discussing what you think of me, a person you'll never be meeting. And to be even more honest, after our conversation in the GPF thread, I don't for one moment believe you know what you're talking about when it comes to evaluating artistic aspects of anything, or how to participate in a meaningful discussion.

In your own post, you say it's "not the only way", yet somehow, you're convinced of - what? I can't be thinking of these other ways skaters could be getting their experience with?

 

[Arigato]

If you think an individual being treated like they belong has no meaningful impact on their self identity, then I think your experience and worldview is incredibly isolated.

What is that - an ad for the Greek system in college? "You, too, can be treated like you belong. Join our sorority filled with Barbies and frats filled with Kens." I think you have forgotten this is a sport.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Quite honestly, I have no interest in discussing what you think of me

This discussion is not about you, only the opinions written. Stop misdirecting.

Your entire thesis has been: "skaters getting to compete in seniors means nothing whatsoever", despite every evidence provided. You make totally wrong statements that Stellato receiving a 6.0 at a senior competition is "no evidence" of an event in someone's life that gives them more confidence and spark to keep participating. You try to call evidence fallacious and say it's impossible to know if someone competing in seniors earlier benefitted them (despite the cold hard facts of how it definitely did for many people, certainly monetarily), while adamantly stating that Hanyu simply would have produced the same level of skating if he'd been a first-year senior in 2013, and would've had the same trajectory in his career. You aren't even trying to use reason, just digging your heels in for whatever reason to pretend that the new age rule is perfect.

I don't for one moment believe you know what you're talking about when it comes to evaluating artistic aspects of anything

Thankfully I don't need to care about totally frivolous and empty "beliefs", particularly from someone who thinks it's realistic, and the only correct artistic choice, to plan a Quad Lutz + Triple Flip combo as the last jump element of a program.

What is that - an ad for the Greek system in college? "You, too, can be treated like you belong. Join our sorority filled with Barbies and frats filled with Kens." I think you have forgotten this is a sport.

So bizarre.

Yes this is a sport, and also a performance art, and people do better - in pretty much every aspect of life - when they directly get to experience being among the most successful peers in their field and being told "you deserve to work at the highest level and we believe in you to be a champion". A seat at the table. The grownup table. Not the kiddie table.

 

[yfan1]

This discussion is not about you, only the opinions written. Stop misdirecting.

Your entire thesis has been: "skaters getting to compete in seniors means nothing whatsoever", despite every evidence provided. You make totally wrong statements that Stellato receiving a 6.0 at a senior competition is "no evidence" of an event in someone's life that gives them more confidence and spark to keep participating. You try to call evidence fallacious and say it's impossible to know if someone competing in seniors earlier benefitted them (despite the cold hard facts of how it definitely did for many people, certainly monetarily), while adamantly stating that Hanyu simply would have produced the same level of skating if he'd been a first-year senior in 2013, and would've had the same trajectory in his career. You aren't even trying to use reason, just digging your heels in for whatever reason to pretend that the new age rule is perfect.

Thankfully I don't need to care about totally frivolous and empty "beliefs", particularly from someone who thinks it's realistic, and the only correct artistic choice, to plan a Quad Lutz + Triple Flip combo as the last jump element of a program.

For someone who keeps talking about "strawman arguments" you really love making them. And it's pretty obvious you don't need to be caring about anyone else's frivolous beliefs when you have plenty of your own - why else would you be sitting here evaluating "art" in figure skating of all places?

Enjoy being unable to watch 15 year olds.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

He didn't have as long of a career as the other guys. Read what was written instead of creating a false prompt.

This thread has been referring to flash in the pan athletes. Buttle’s senior career was 7 seasons across two Olympic cycles. And as mentioned he only started his first full seniors season when he was 19, and obviously/understandably did not need to continue after winning the World title at 26 (and having Olympic bronze), even though he would and could have easily made the 2010 Vancouver team.