Should quads per program be limited to balance artistry?

[skatedreamer]

These last few posts, to me, put a spotlight on the dilemma that the ISU faces and explains why they will never solve it. Posture and carriage, flowing lines, majestic musical climaxes -- those are the things that, more the most part, intrigued skating fans in the 6.0 days.

But wait -- I thought skater X had prettier flowing lines than skater Y, so the judges must be cheating to give Y the prize. Hence the IJS. Now we see where that has led: Here is a list of things that you get big points for. Do them and you will get big points.

I grew up watching 6.0 programs. The jumps and spins thrilled me then and they always will. But boy howdy, how I miss the magic of spread eagles and extended spirals for almost the full length of the rink.

Case in point: to this day, what stays with me about Boitano's 1988 OGM program isn't the jumps. It's the long, slow spread eagle. Stopped my heart, that did!

Moves like that deserve more rewards than they get under the point system. JMO.

 

[Blades of Passion]

I think the issue would be the same with 6.0 now that the quad revolution has hit.

It wouldn't be, as skaters would not be doing the ridiculous footwork sequences and spins they are doing now if 6.0 was still in effect, nor all of the other clunky movements throughout the programs.

It's also unlikely that people would be trying this many quads if 6.0 was still in effect, because you needed to do a jump cleanly to get credit for it in that system.

The problem that would still exist is people with high tech content being frequently overscored on the "second mark" (PCS), but there would be more artistry overall, since the artistic mark in 6.0 made a huge difference. Getting scored .1 less on artistic meant something. Generally, it meant you lose. Not the case with PCS, where 1 or 2 points in difference (or even 5 points of difference) is usually not what determines the winner. The tech score does.

All that said, 6.0 is not a good judging system. But at least that judging system was organic and allowed the direct opinion of the judge to be reflected, and didn't give people points for doing compulsory trash moves that have no "real" value in terms of what skating is supposed to be about. CoP is the potentially better system but has yet to be written, and used by judges, as well as it needs to be. After over 20 years. Yikes.

 

[yfan1]

Yes, agreed. In terms of rankings, the problem also would be that someone who finished 15th in the SP probably wouldn't win the entire thing after the LP even if that skater skated the best LP ever. But 6.0 style marks would certainly make sure to cause the spins and steps to look less clunky, disincentivize overquadding, and the PCS would actually matter because even 0.1 less would knock you down the rankings. Politics would still exist, but the skating would have a chance to at least look better.

It'd also fix the issue of someone getting more marks for 3A+3A than 3A+3Lo (and so go the scores of other elements like these) which has been ridiculous. The judges could again register their 'opinion' through the tech score. Right now they're bounded by the CoP, and don't seem to use GOE in accordance either (as in 3Lz+3Lo could simply be getting more 'difficulty' score through GOE - if performed properly, which no one does, but there you are).

 

[Mathman]

One change that I would approve of, and that would be easy to implement, would be to tighten up on the requirements for GOE on quads.

The tendency now is to triple dip. The quadster already gets big base value, plus even an average quad is scored as if it is something special unless the skater has a big and obvious error -- and then the PCSs go up, too.

 

[YuBluByMe]

Just here to chime in :

How many of you, who have voted that the number of quads shouldn't be limited to balance artistry are willing to change their vote after today's messy event (Olympics men's free program). Where was the artistry tonight ?

I voted no. After the men’s free skate, my vote is still no.

Because again, quads are not the problem. None of the men had interesting, complex programs, Cha included. The majority of the field (70%) attempted less than four quads and their programs were just as devoid of anything interesting as the 7 that attempted four or more. Limiting quads does not equate to improving artistry and only does one thing and one thing only: limits the show of athleticism for a select group of skaters. Quads were already limited in 2018 and programs still further degraded because again, quads are not the problem . Until the actual issues are addressed, programs will continue to be awful, especially the men’s. Yes, even next year when/if yet another jumping pass is removed if the following changes are not implemented:

- Add 30 seconds back to the FPs
- Higher BV for spins and steps.
- Increase the threshold for PCS, but this will only work with correct judging. It won’t matter if the threshold is increased to 120 if the judges will just score a skater with poor skating skills and choreography a 110.

 

[4everchan]

I voted no. After the men’s free skate, my vote is still no.

Because again, quads are not the problem. None of the men had interesting, complex programs, Cha included. The majority of the field (70%) attempted less than four quads and their programs were just as devoid of anything interesting as the 7 that attempted four or more. Limiting quads does not equate to improving artistry and only does one thing and one thing only: limits the show of athleticism for a select group of skaters. Quads were already limited in 2018 and programs still further degraded because again, quads are not the problem . Until the actual issues are addressed, programs will continue to be awful, especially the men’s. Yes, even next year when/if yet another jumping pass is removed if the following changes are not implemented:

- Add 30 seconds back to the FPs
- Higher BV for spins and steps.
- Increase the threshold for PCS, but this will only work with correct judging. It won’t matter if the threshold is increased to 120 if the judges will just score a skater with poor skating skills and choreography a 110.

I don't disagree that quads are not the direct problem for bad programs. But it is the main factor in my opinion. Why ? Because the focus on training is on acquiring the quads and not on developing choreography and good skating skills.

I agree that you could indirectly correct that by adding back 30 seconds OR cutting one jumping pass which is most likely to happen.
I agree that you could indirectly raise BV for non jumping elements. Will they do it ?
I agree you could raise the PCS factoring to 120. Will the judges reward skaters properly because right now, the PCS is linked to the TES.

So in the end, my vote is still to limit quads because indirectly trying to correct the problem is not going to cut it considering what I have seen at these Olympics. I need more. I need Patrick Chan kind of skaters. This is what I love in skating. Flow, effortless glide, musicality coming from the entire body and powered by effective use of edges. All of this, with some powerful jumps

I guess my username was well-chosen... it's been almost ten years I have been on this forum and the more quads I see, the less good programs I see. Maybe I should time travel back to 2011.

 

[Mathman]

I agree you could raise the PCS factoring to 120.

I can't decide whether this would be a good thing or not. Probably so for the very top skaters in the world.

But the IJS has to serve the needs of all skaters, from beginners on up. I think that if you look at the larger data base and not just the 4-quads guys, you get a different picture of keeping TES and PCS in balance.

 

[4everchan]

I can't decide whether this would be a good thing or not. Probably so for the very top skaters in the world.

But the IJS has to serve the needs of all skaters, from beginners on up. I think that if you look at the larger data base and not just the 4 quads guys, you get a different picture of keeping TES and PCS in balance.

Well, it is marginal because the real issue is in the scoring of said PCS.
1.20 factoring just gives an extra point advantage for 5 point advantage in the current system... So 85 to 80 becomes 102 to 96.

However, it does send a message that if it is possible to score 120 in TES it is also possible to score 120 in PCS... Which is not the case right now.

In the end, the system is so flawed that other than Gogolev, I have no desire to watch ANY of the long programs from a few days ago and I wonder, if I were not Canadian, would I still want to rewatch Gogo... It wasn't the most artistic endeavour either

 

[Mathman]

What I fear the most is that the ISU has drunk the cool-aid. I think that they are quite content for figure skating to go the route of "extreme sports" like snowboarding and aerial skiing -- this is what young people like, right? And we want to attract younger fans, right? Younger fans are not into Tchaikovsky, right?

 

[4everchan]

What I fear the most is that the ISU has drunk the cool-aid. I think that they are quite content for figure skating to go the route of "extreme sports" like snowboarding and aerial skiing -- this is what young people like, right? And we want to attract younger fans, right? Younger fans are not into Tchaikovsky, right?

I don't know about Tchaikovsky but my kids are into Rach 2

 

[Tutto]

IMHO limiting number of quads to 3 in a FS would fix a lot of problems with a single, easy to implement, change. The quadsters then will have no choice but develop other skills, improve their spins, steps, choreo etc. The programs will be more artistic as a result (is it not what ISU wants?) but jumps will still be in, there will be some balance. Of course, it is not a perfect solution but it is a simple solution and if it does not work, ISU always can go back or make different adjustments.

 

[Tutto]

I don't know about Tchaikovsky but my kids are into Rach 2

I think Rach 2 worked very well for Stephen Gogolev.
As Firebird did for Shun.
And who knows how things would have played out for Yuma if Turandot hadn't carried him (and the public in the arena!) through his difficulties in FS?
And no music rights issues

 

[4everchan]

I think Rach 2 worked very well for Stephen Gogolev.
As Firebird did for Shun.
And who knows how things would have played out for Yuma if Turandot hadn't carried him (and the public in the arena!) through his difficulties in FS?
And no music rights issues

and also, long lyrical phrases perfect for gliding.

This is what people forget : classical music works best for figure skating when you want to have flowing, sweeping strokes and movement. The arch of the musical phrases is perfect with classical music.
Also, as it is often pure music, it's a blank canvas so the skaters can be imaginative and free to create their own narrative.

Finally, since you mentioned Gogo : the first time I saw his Rach 2... I wasn't convinced. He improved VERY much. Also, I liked his SP because the style was different. Here, he had a very literal interpretation. I am not often praising Benoit Richaud but I think he understands the task... being literal when it matters in the SP and following the musical phrases in the LP.

I hope he keeps doing such good work with Gogolev and others.

 

[yfan1]

IMHO limiting number of quads to 3 in a FS would fix a lot of problems with a single, easy to implement, change.

I think so too. It's unlikely they'll go back to 4:30. So limiting quads seems best. 6 jumps with 3 quads at most is what seems best to me.

 

[4everchan]

I agree with the 3 quads. They can be done on fresh legs early in the program and then there are about 2.5 minutes left of skating. It's when they start adding quads in the second half that it kills the programs.

 

[Tutto]

and also, long lyrical phrases perfect for gliding.

This is what people forget : classical music works best for figure skating when you want to have flowing, sweeping strokes and movement. The arch of the musical phrases is perfect with classical music.
Also, as it is often pure music, it's a blank canvas so the skaters can be imaginative and free to create their own narrative.

Finally, since you mentioned Gogo : the first time I saw his Rach 2... I wasn't convinced. He improved VERY much. Also, I liked his SP because the style was different. Here, he had a very literal interpretation. I am not often praising Benoit Richaud but I think he understands the task... being literal when it matters in the SP and following the musical phrases in the LP.

I hope he keeps doing such good work with Gogolev and others.

I think he improved from the TE to the individual event quite noticeably. The judges agreed I think. That is another thing - with classical music you always get an extra point or so I believe. There is a depth, a substance in a classical piece appreciated by judges, not to forget that most of judges not of young generation and might be just thankful for a moment of harmony amidst of pop, rock and the rest!

As regards Benoit I am afraid I disagree with you. I don't like his takes on classical music, and in general I am just annoyed because he seems to be everywhere you look. Is there any data how many programs across all the disciplines he choreographed this season? 50? 100? Does the man sleep, does he eat?!

 

[4everchan]

I think he improved from the TE to the individual event quite noticeably. The judges agreed I think. That is another thing - with classical music you always get an extra point or so I believe. There is a depth, a substance in a classical piece appreciated by judges, not to forget that most of judges not of young generation and might be just thankful for a moment of harmony amidst of pop, rock and the rest!

As regards Benoit I am afraid I disagree with you. I don't like his takes on classical music, and in general I am just annoyed because he seems to be everywhere you look. Is there any data how many programs across all the disciplines he choreographed this season? 50? 100? Does the man sleep, does he eat?!

Well as I said, I don't like many of Benoit's programs but these two for Stephen, I really liked

 

[Tutto]

Well as I said, I don't like many of Benoit's programs but these two for Stephen, I really liked

Ahh so you did, my apologies! And you are quite right, these are two very good vehicles for Stephen at THIS stage of his development. That what Benoit is actually good at, I have to admit.
And what he did for Adam - the Tirol Concerto is a masterpiece which we sadly did not see in all its glory, all was ruined in fighting for blessed 4 quads

 

[skatedreamer]

Ahh so you did, my apologies! And you are quite right, these are two very good vehicles for Stephen at THIS stage of his development. That what Benoit is actually good at, I have to admit.
And what he did for Adam - the Tirol Concerto is a masterpiece which we sadly did not see in all its glory, all was ruined in fighting for blessed 4 quads

"...blessed 4 quads"

I seem to have mislaid my manners
and would probably use a different word than blessed.

 

[dlarry1]

When you go back and read this entire thread, it seems to wander and always circle back to the same issues of sport and art. I wonder, is there a sport that tries to manage this tension and does it better than figure skating? Gymnastics? Diving? Artistic Swimming? Or something outside the Olympic realm, like ballroom dancing? Are there good models out there that skating should look at?