Are we watching skating… or just our faves?

[Arigato]

Sport.

I don't believe the sport can thrive if it is frequently forced to contend with individuals calling skaters, coaches, or fans rape apologists or claiming the sport is rigged by judges whose scores are all but completely discarded, per rule, and don't even figure into the total. In other words, fans who intentionally mislead others or decline education on how the sport is scored are destroying it. The burning question becomes, why do people bother to watch a sport they really don't give a crap about?

As for my "faves", well, I have fave executions of elements and, moreover, unyielding skating skills in the face of pressure. That means in any one segment, I could have 5 or 6 different faves based on a 3A, 4T, complex jump combination, or step sequence all done by different people. Ever seen Alexandr Selevko's 4T? Stellar. Many years ago I stumbled across a video on YouTube of a guy I didn't know. He did a superb back counter entry into a 3A. Men don't usually do that exceptionally well unless their name is Yuzu. As I watched, I looked for the guy's name then said out loud: " Who the hell is Kevin Aymoz?"

 

[DizzyFrenchie]

Wow.

I used to think that we thought differently. But reading your post, I could have written it myself. Because everything you have written is exactly the same as how I feel! The only difference is that I only started getting interested in the sport in my teens. But the order was the same.

As for the original question, the position I am currently at is one that I don't particularly like.

I would always have said that I watched skating rather than just my favourite skaters. But, as you all know, motorsports is my first love. And because the calendars of the motorsports series I follow have expanded in recent years, it means that there is less time to follow my other interests.

I used to watch motorsports, snooker, ski sports and figure skating. And it used to be that the calendars dove-tailed in a way that you could do it. But then the promotors started expanding the calendars to bring in more money, and it became much more difficult to follow them all.

The first to do this was snooker. And when it got to the stage that it was finish one tounament one day and start the next tournament the following day, it became so stressful trying to watch everything that I stopped watching the sport completely. And doing this did wonders for how I was feeling. Then when the F1 and MotoGP calendars expanded after the pandemic, I gave up watching ski sports because I couldn't fit them in around the motorsports and figure skating. I have even given up watching some of the motorsports series I used to watch, because there was so much F1 and MotoGP.

And I hate that I had to give up watching those things. During the recent Olympics, I decided to watch the ski sports that I used to watch. And I really enjoyed watching them again. And I realised just how much I missed them.

Now, I am finding it hard to watch all the figure skating that I would want to. And on the weeks when there are motorsports on, I often just watch the skaters that I run Fan Fests for. And I am not enjoying that, because when you just watch one skater / partnership, you don't get a proper perspective of what is going on in the competition.

With the F1 and MotoGP currently on an unplanned month-long break due to rounds in the Middle East being cancelled, I have been enjoying watching in full the smaller figure skating competitions that are currently on (and which have free streams).

For me, I have never cared much about the results of competitions. I just want to see people going out there and trying their best. Which is why when watching figure skating, I nearly always enjoy watching the earlier groups more than the later groups. Indeed, if I have had to leave watching, I have been known to not bother going back to watch the final group. Because I am less interested in the top skaters.

I know. I'm odd.

CaroLiza_fan

Sorry for being out of topic, but if it can help you have more time to watch Figure Skating, I can tell you why I stopped watching F1 over three decades ago?

 

[CaroLiza_fan]

Sorry for being out of topic, but if it can help you have more time to watch Figure Skating, I can tell you why I stopped watching F1 over three decades ago?

I'm getting to the stage that I am thinking of doing the same. Although the racing is more exciting under the new rules introduced this season, I am not getting any enjoyment out of it because I know it is all artificial due to the new "overtake mode" and "boost button". I want to see real racing, where it is down to the skill of the drivers.

Instead of adding more driving aids, they should be stripping them all out!

And unfortunatelty, MotoGP is going a similar way. Except in their case, it is the introduction of things like aerodynamic wings and ride height devices that is spoiling it.

But, as you said, this is off topic.

CaroLiza_fan

 

[elektra blue]

hello everyone, i'm Elektra, addicted. i'm can't stay clean for more than a few days and now i'm going into a serious withdrawal summer syndrome. i watch everything and every disciplines. of course i have my favourites, but that translates just in anxiety attacks when they compete. the problem is not the sport or the fans arguing, the problem is when something turn into a religion. the stans are cult members, they follow a dogma with blind faith and they easily turn into zealots, it's as easy as that.

 

[Anna K.]

hello everyone, i'm Elektra, addicted. i'm can't stay clean for more than a few days and now i'm going into a serious withdrawal summer syndrome. i watch everything and every disciplines.

But did you watch Peruvian Nationals?

 

[Arigato]

I should write an article on the cult of Pooh. The stans, however, don't like other skaters who are seen as sweeter than what is in the honey pot. And I hold Eminem eminently responsible for that damn word: Stan.

 

[bartlebooth]

Whenever possible, I prefer to watch the whole competition. I am very annoyed by the fact that in my country the ISU streaming gets geoblocked but the competitions are usually not shown in their entirety (only GPs in Europe get broadcast fully). I have to juggle with streaming to follow the first groups or to watch live.
I don't think that there's “too much of a good thing”, except maybe for the judges to keep their criteria coherent for long hours (not that shenanigans don't happen even in shorter competitions), so I don't complain when there are a lot of participants.
Of course, I have my faves, mostly discovered while watching random competitions, I follow them closely (to the point of getting very tense) and I'm open to get new ones, or at least to appreciate some sparse programs or elements from other skaters. Some I don't like even if they are appreciated and successful, I try not to harp too much about it. As for disciplines, I may like one more than the other, but it changes according to the season and the skaters. Usually I find some entertainment in every competition, and I like that different skaters at different levels have different goals (tech minimums, a clean skate, representing their country, etc). A good performance is a joy forever.
As long as everybody is shown on TV and has a fair shot at being judged correctly, I'm happy.

 

[elektra blue]

But did you watch Peruvian Nationals?

so do you think i'm not hopeless yet?

I should write an article on the cult of Pooh. The stans, however, don't like other skaters who are seen as sweeter than what is in the honey pot. And I hold Eminem eminently responsible for that damn word: Stan.

think if Yuzu was fun of Chtulu instead of bear on weed. now that would have been an interesting turn of events, think of the avalanches of stuffed squid-like gods of chaos

 

[Anna K.]

so do you think i'm not hopeless yet?

Do you think I am already?

 

[FlyingFeather]

To me, part of the problem is that figure skating scoring is hardly explained for non-figure skaters. I spend way too much time watching ice dance, and I can't even really see the difference between deep and shallow edges, between a rocker and a bracket, and between a hopped turn and a clean one because I have never skated. All the information comes from fans (Jackie and other podcasts, figure skating forums) trying to decipher abstruse ISU documents and explain them to the rest of us. I think the ISU commentators and replays should explain these things instead of assuming that there is no way to explain to non-figure skating fans. Show replays of key points, have the commentators name those difficult turns, and explain why or why not they were clean. Use lines and graphics to compare. Same for the other disciplines. Name the spin features that are garnering the levels, show edges and rotations, etc.
In a sport that is as linked to an individual as any artistic individual sport is, the skater's personality will always matter and either draw us to them or away from them. And, with the age of social media and with the figure skating world being so small, we fans get invested in skaters' personal lives and figure skating journeys. This, along with the subjective nature of the sport, leads to annoying stans. I understand that there will always be those who can argue on this forum for days about whether a jump was on the q or an underrotation, gifs included, and then slowly devolve into personal attacks again skaters and other posters. The rest of us know when to just keep scrolling.
But, in general, it would be easier to be a fan of the sport instead of individual skaters if the ISU invested more into making its fans knowledgeable, not promoting only vibes. We all keep watching figure skating instead of (or in addition to) the ballet or the Martha Graham company or football or soccer, etc. because we want to merge the measurable competitive athletics with the artistic x-factor. We want vibes and to understand the scoring!
To answer the other part of your question, personally, this crop of skaters actually have less who I absolutely love than previous eras. People ask me, who is your favorite figure skater?, and I have no idea. I have favorites and non-favorites, but it really comes down to the program (though I'll admit it is hard to appreciate certain skaters who have personally made themselves unlikeable--however, I see no good that would come from complaining about that in an anonymous online forum.) But in some ways, it is enjoyable to not have strong favorites. This is why I really like listening to Mark Hanretty. He is such a fan of skating and points out specifically what each performance does well. Every competition, I will be disappointed for some and happy for others. I can always appreciate the hard work each skater put in and see their different artistic perspectives!

 

[TallyT]

so do you think i'm not hopeless yet?

think if Yuzu was fun of Chtulu instead of bear on weed. now that would have been an interesting turn of events, think of the avalanches of stuffed squid-like gods of chaos

I couldn't find any Cthulhu tissue box covers (and why someone hasn't thought of marketing them I do not know! I would buy one) but I did find a Godzilla (who is Japanese! plus point) which I now think I want...

and there are LOTS of plush (fluffy or not) Godzillas!

 

[Mathman]

To me, part of the problem is that figure skating scoring is hardly explained for non-figure skaters. I spend way too much time watching ice dance, and I can't even really see the difference between deep and shallow edges, between a rocker and a bracket, and between a hopped turn and a clean one because I have never skated. All the information comes from fans (Jackie and other podcasts, figure skating forums) trying to decipher abstruse ISU documents and explain them to the rest of us. I think the ISU commentators and replays should explain these things instead of assuming that there is no way to explain to non-figure skating fans. Show replays of key points, have the commentators name those difficult turns, and explain why or why not they were clean.

The sport of diving has had some interesting commentary along those lines. The only thing I knew about diving was that making a big apish when you hit the water was wrose than making a small splash. But then they started showing split screen side-by-side slow motion comparisons of two divers doing the same dive and pointed out all sorts of interesting points, like this guy's shollders are farther back than that guy's, and that's why he got a higher execution mark, etc. It helped a lot.

 

[Arigato]

think if Yuzu was fond of Chtulu instead of bear on weed. now that would have been an interesting turn of events, think of the avalanches of stuffed squid-like gods of chaos

 

[FlyingFeather]

The sport of diving has had some interesting commentary along those lines. The only thing I knew about diving was that making a big apish when you hit the water was wrose than making a small splash. But then they started showing split screen side-by-side slow motion comparisons of two divers doing the same dive and pointed out all sorts of interesting points, like this guy's shollders are farther back than that guy's, and that's why he got a higher execution mark, etc. It helped a lot.

I would love this for FS!!

 

[4everchan]

I would love this for FS!!

It has been done a long time ago, at least by some commentators/analyst. I saw it plenty when I was a kid on French CBC and later, on English CBC.

Some analysts demystified a bunch of things for me. All jumps for instance were explained and shown with proper take-off.
Then, I remember seeing things like different throw techniques : for instance the Chinese teams really throw the women very far across the ice... super impressive but also risky. Another approach is much closer to an assisted jump. They showed two teams with the different techniques side by side. I also remember being shown what made Bourne and Kraatz special with their hydro-blading. There was a feature on it.

In brief, back in the days, when there was TV coverage of world championships on National TV, they also had mini features : sometimes about a specific medal hope or contender but also to explain the sport.

Now, with the move to "live" everything and I am guessing the cost of making these features being too high, they do not do it. It's unfortunate.

I mean, every single hockey game on my sports network has a pre-game show and a post-game debrief with 3-4 hosts/commentators... Imagine if fans could get the insight on figure skating that way. It was never the case but we also have lost the short features I remember seeing when I was a kid.

Truly, trying to identify jumps when they happened was a big incentive for me when watching. I would play this game with myself of calling the jump before the commentator did . I had watched 1988 games without any knowledge... by the mid-nineties I was hooked because I knew more about the sport.

 

[gkelly]

To me, part of the problem is that figure skating scoring is hardly explained for non-figure skaters. I spend way too much time watching ice dance, and I can't even really see the difference between deep and shallow edges, between a rocker and a bracket, and between a hopped turn and a clean one because I have never skated.

It should be relatively easy to learn to see the difference between deep and shallow edges, at least where there are pronounced differences.

This would be clearest in the set pattern dances where everyone is doing the exact same steps.

Try choosing a particular dance -- I recommend the Westminster Waltz, which will be used in the Junior Rhythm Dance next season -- and looking for videos on youtube of the same dance performed by elite skaters and by test-level skaters, adult skaters, solo dancers, etc.

Look at how close each team (or solo dancer) gets to the boards along the long sides of the rink and how close to the middle of the ice. Are the curves shaped more like a deep C or a shallower ( shape?

Also look at how deeply the skaters bend their knees. If there are closeups of the blades, look at how much the blade or the whole foot is tilted into the circle.

You probably won't see fine differences between world champions and 5th- or 10th-place elite teams to begin with. But you should be able to see differences between world champs and average juniors or below. That will help you understand the concept at least.

Next summer when the JGP starts, try watching a variety of rhythm dances by teams from the top, middle, and bottom of the standings at their events. Focus specifically on the pattern dance part where they'll be doing the same steps.

The JPG uses random draw for the first phase of competition. So maybe at the next JGP watch the whole RD and decide for yourself which teams you think are probably in the top, middle, or bottom range of the scores, specifically Skating Skills.


Identifying specific turns takes more knowledge, and the quality of turns even more. Quality at that level can be hard to see on video, or even live from a distance. There's a reason judges used to stand on the ice, and then crouch next to the tracings, to judge the quality of turns in school figures.

Occasionally the ISU has made educational videos, TV networks have made educational videos, and youtube posters have made educational videos (trust threads by coaches before those from fans), and posters here have made educational threads.

It would be nice to have a sticky thread or section of the board here that is easy for fans to find, not buried in the Lutz Corner, where we could offer links and explanations for fans looking to learn about skating technique.

And other threads about tech panel calling and judging rules, which rely on the basic technical knowledge.

Here's a thread I made years ago. I'm afraid many of the links there are probably no longer up to date.

G

Thread 'Edges and turns'

Jul 12, 2013

I've been meaning to come back to this topic. Found some time tonight.

I didn't want to just continue on from the Identifying Turns and MITF from the Sine Qua Non thread thread because that started in the middle of the topic instead of starting with the basics. I thought it might be useful to organize the thread more systematically. I'll start by copying an edited version of my last post in that thread, which should really be the beginning of the discussion.

Other skaters: Please suggest edits if you think I got something wrong or didn't explain clearly.

* * * * *
Blades are...

• gkelly
• Replies: 19
• Forum: Skating Skills & Questions

I'd be happy to start new threads where we can discuss technical questions. Is The Edge the right place for them? Can they be made sticky, or can there be one sticky thread with links to ongoing threads?

Where would you want to start?

 

[TontoK]

For me, it's the sport. Sure I have skaters I look forward to because they have entertained me in the past, and I hope for more of the same.

I don't get the whole "stan" thing. As I've said many times, I don't HAVE to root for anyone. I'm not related to these people - I don't even know them. My fanhood has to be earned and re-earned all the time.

The only time I have been foaming-at-the-mouth LIVID over the results of a skating competition happened very recently, and it involved a team I have enjoyed over the years, but I wouldn't have thought they'd be a team I'd go to war over. But what happened to them was so brutally dishonest I could not contain myself. And I do not regret a single thing I said then, and I'd say it all over again right now if I didn't know it would derail the thread, and a pox on anyone who defended that.

 

[DizzyFrenchie]

It should be relatively easy to learn to see the difference between deep and shallow edges, at least where there are pronounced differences.

This would be clearest in the set pattern dances where everyone is doing the exact same steps.

Try choosing a particular dance -- I recommend the Westminster Waltz, which will be used in the Junior Rhythm Dance next season -- and looking for videos on youtube of the same dance performed by elite skaters and by test-level skaters, adult skaters, solo dancers, etc.

Look at how close each team (or solo dancer) gets to the boards along the long sides of the rink and how close to the middle of the ice. Are the curves shaped more like a deep C or a shallower ( shape?

Also look at how deeply the skaters bend their knees. If there are closeups of the blades, look at how much the blade or the whole foot is tilted into the circle.

You probably won't see fine differences between world champions and 5th- or 10th-place elite teams to begin with. But you should be able to see differences between world champs and average juniors or below. That will help you understand the concept at least.

Next summer when the JGP starts, try watching a variety of rhythm dances by teams from the top, middle, and bottom of the standings at their events. Focus specifically on the pattern dance part where they'll be doing the same steps.

The JPG uses random draw for the first phase of competition. So maybe at the next JGP watch the whole RD and decide for yourself which teams you think are probably in the top, middle, or bottom range of the scores, specifically Skating Skills.


Identifying specific turns takes more knowledge, and the quality of turns even more. Quality at that level can be hard to see on video, or even live from a distance. There's a reason judges used to stand on the ice, and then crouch next to the tracings, to judge the quality of turns in school figures.

Occasionally the ISU has made educational videos, TV networks have made educational videos, and youtube posters have made educational videos (trust threads by coaches before those from fans), and posters here have made educational threads.

It would be nice to have a sticky thread or section of the board here that is easy for fans to find, not buried in the Lutz Corner, where we could offer links and explanations for fans looking to learn about skating technique.

And other threads about tech panel calling and judging rules, which rely on the basic technical knowledge.

Here's a thread I made years ago. I'm afraid many of the links there are probably no longer up to date.

G

Thread 'Edges and turns'

Jul 12, 2013

I've been meaning to come back to this topic. Found some time tonight.

I didn't want to just continue on from the Identifying Turns and MITF from the Sine Qua Non thread thread because that started in the middle of the topic instead of starting with the basics. I thought it might be useful to organize the thread more systematically. I'll start by copying an edited version of my last post in that thread, which should really be the beginning of the discussion.

Other skaters: Please suggest edits if you think I got something wrong or didn't explain clearly.

* * * * *
Blades are...

• gkelly
• Replies: 19
• Forum: Skating Skills & Questions

I'd be happy to start new threads where we can discuss technical questions. Is The Edge the right place for them? Can they be made sticky, or can there be one sticky thread with links to ongoing threads?

Where would you want to start?

I have always postponed starting to learn methodically how Ice Dance is scored, thinking, I'm already so far from what I want for Singles and I'm not speaking of Pairs, which have more in common with Singles, so I was afraid of more or less staying forever in that state, but this idea is simple and seems such a good start, the beginner level as it should be! Thank you, I hope I will attend your advice!

 

[Mathman]

Truly, trying to identify jumps when they happened was a big incentive for me when watching. I would play this game with myself of calling the jump before the commentator did .

I have been working on this for 30 years with only glacial progress. If I watch really, really closely I can distinguish an Axel from the rest, and also a Lutz if the skater uses the long approach technique. Now, with so many men doing quads with great ease, assurance and flow, I am faced with the new problem of distinguishing a quad from a triple.

Oh well.

 

[Mathman]

I don't believe the sport can thrive if it is frequently forced to contend with individuals calling skaters, coaches, or fans rape apologists...

Still, that is far, far, far better than to sweep the problem under the rug and pretend that it doesn't exist.