Are we watching skating… or just our faves?

[Anna K.]

To me, such studies (of infant social development) are interesting because of the "nature versus nurture" dichotomy. As the song from the musical "South Pacific" puts it, "You have to be carefully taught... to hate all the people your relatives hate, you have to be carefully taught."

Or... is there some kind of natural predisposition in our species, the result of natural selection of groups as well as individuals, for young children to learn this kind of lesson with exceptional acuity?

Well, what's interesting for you is up to you

Although I always recommend looking up the printed version of the study and reading the "acknowledging limitations" list (it's in the Discussion section - if it's meant to be a scientific study of course) carefully before taking it seriously.

My biggest shock was the "fan" reaction to the rivalry between Yuna Kim ("'lip-jumper") and Mao Asada ("flutzer") around 2007-2008. Many, many posts brought up atrocities of World War II and similar non-skating issues. These were intertwined with posts about who was cute and who was ugly, etc.

I already touched this theme on a different thread... When skating goes wide, what resonates with the wider public in each particular case?
I'm guessing that in 2007-2008, a Japanese girl competing for gold with a Korean girl didn't resonate as "two beautiful rivals in a beloved sport" in the respective countries because the sport was comparatively unknown there by then. It could resonate with the people who cared about the World War II though. And I guess it did.

 

[DizzyFrenchie]

(...)


I already touched this theme on a different thread... When skating goes wide, what resonates with the wider public in each particular case?
I'm guessing that in 2007-2008, a Japanese girl competing for gold with a Korean girl didn't resonate as "two beautiful rivals in a beloved sport" in the respective countries because the sport was comparatively unknown there by then. It could resonate with the people who cared about the World War II though. And I guess it did.

I don't know what you exactly mean by comparatively unknown. Less known, I would say yes. But I do believe that Midori Ito had gathered a good deal of attention, and that way more Japanese people were following Figure Skating than in the 1980s. In the 2000s, Japan had successful Ice Shows with champions already.

Well.. sometimes, I don't know all the rules but still like watching.. for instance rugby (I am okay with sevens but the bigger teams, I don't know the rules). Of course, the guys are worth the watch. but, really, the difference is that though I don't know all the rules, it's pretty obvious when a team scores and how the scores add up... not the case for figure skating . So that's the main reason for knowledge needed for developing a better/wider fandom for figure skating. Either make the scoring easier to follow with judging more convincing or educate the fans so they can still appreciate what's being done on the ice whether or not it brings big scores

Regarding the complexity of rules and their understanding by casual watchers, while I do think that it's good to have clear explanations provided and kept at easy reach, I also observe that many Cricket casual watchers don't understand the rules yet find pleasure in watching a good match, and I'm agreeably surprised by how many people who have never watched Figure Skating have insights in what's a better or a less good skate, way beyond the falls. (This is why, by the way, all the costly attempts at marketing less good skaters as greatest ever, end up failures, even after showering them with candies, medals and records.)

 

[Arigato]

Humans are tribal animals.

"Us vs. them" is a polarizing, divisive tactic used to control. Especially in populism. Needless to say, I disagree with your assertion. Tribalism undermines critical thinking and fosters echo chambers. So-called tribal members would more than likely flunk a peer pressure test - to say the least. Objectivity is an ugly word to a tribe.

 

[4everchan]

I don't know what you exactly mean by comparatively unknown. Less known, I would say yes. But I do believe that Midori Ito had gathered a good deal of attention, and that way more Japanese people were following Figure Skating than in the 1980s. In the 2000s, Japan had successful Ice Shows with champions already.


Regarding the complexity of rules and their understanding by casual watchers, while I do think that it's good to have clear explanations provided and kept at easy reach, I also observe that many Cricket casual watchers don't understand the rules yet find pleasure in watching a good match, and I'm agreeably surprised by how many people who have never watched Figure Skating have insights in what's a better or a less good skate, way beyond the falls. (This is why, by the way, all the costly attempts at marketing less good skaters as greatest ever, end up failures, even after showering them with candies, medals and records.)

My point is more about keeping scores which is possible in these sports

 

[TallyT]

True, figure skating is a pretty sport and pretty people have an advantage. Although... any average-looking person can be glamorous if they are presented that way (as for example, Hollywood movie stars).

What is especially odious is when someone doesn't like a skater for whatever reason, then takes it upon himself to toss in -- "and besides that, he's ugly and his ears stick out."

Oh I agree, and there is probably not a skater on the planet who has not been called ugly.

Sport isn't really a clean and generous thing, and pretty much never has been... remember what Orwell said 60 years ago.

 

[Mathman]

"Us vs. them" is a polarizing, divisive tactic used to control. Especially in populism. Needless to say, I disagree with your assertion. Tribalism undermines critical thinking and fosters echo chambers. So-called tribal members would more than likely flunk a peer pressure test - to say the least. Objectivity is an ugly word to a tribe.

I do not see anything in this post that is in disagreement with my assertion -- which is, that we are tribal animals, however sad and terrible the consequences. Don't shoot the messenger.

We are not alone. Here is a brief expository article published one day ago in Science magazine about tribal warfare among chimpanzees. (If more scholarly detail is desired, Google the Ngogo Civil War (2018-Present), or the reports by naturalist Jane Goodall about the Gombe War of 1974-1978.)

https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.aeg6719

[Irrelevant factoid: I see that the Scence article was supported by the Emmy Noether Programme of the BRD. Noether was a mathematician -- probably the most significant female mathematician of the twentieth century -- who fled Germany in the 1930s and subsequently had a long and productive career at Bryn Mawr University in the United States.]

 

[DizzyFrenchie]

I do not see anything in this post that is in disagreement with my assertion -- which is, that we are tribal animals, however sad and terrible the consequences. Don't shoot the messenger.

We are not alone. Here is a brief expository article published one day ago in Science magazine about tribal warfare among chimpanzees. (If more scholarly detail is desired, Google the Ngogo Civil War (2018-Present), or the reports by naturalist Jane Goodall about the Gombe War of 1974-1978.)

https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.aeg6719

[Irrelevant factoid: I see that the Scence article was supported by the Emmy Noether Programme of the BRD. Noether was a mathematician -- probably the most significant female mathematician of the twentieth century -- who fled Germany in the 1930s and subsequently had a long and productive career at Bryn Mawr University in the United States.]

Animals can be more complex than humans in their competitivity too. Imagine if skaters had to fight again for victory or rank when a hardly won flower crown (handmade by fans too!) falls:

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

 

[Arigato]

I do not see anything in this post that is in disagreement with my assertion -- which is, that we are tribal animals, however sad and terrible the consequences. Don't shoot the messenger.

No, we are not all tribal animals. I don't care whose assertion it is or who the messenger is.

Here is a brief expository article published one day ago in Science magazine about tribal warfare among chimpanzees.

Are you comparing yourself to a chimpanzee? I certainly hope not.

 

[Mathman]

Are you comparing yourself to a chimpanzee? I certainly hope not.

Well... yeah, I guess I am.

Humans are classified among the Great Apes (Hominidae). We are especially similar to Bonobos.

Frankly, I can't believe that anyone seriously disputes the claim that tribalism plays a role in human behavior.

 

[Arigato]

Frankly, I can't believe that anyone seriously disputes the claim that tribalism plays a role in human behavior.

I can't believe it either. But then I already posted about tribalism in human behavior.

I wrote:

"Us vs. them" is a polarizing, divisive tactic used to control. Especially in populism. Needless to say, I disagree with your assertion. Tribalism undermines critical thinking and fosters echo chambers. So-called tribal members would more than likely flunk a peer pressure test - to say the least. Objectivity is an ugly word to a tribe.

I also wrote:

"we are not all tribal animals" in response to you saying, "we are tribal animals."

I'm not an absolutist who thinks something is true without exceptions.

 

[RoundedBackCamel]

I watch every single skater. Mens is my favorite discipline, and I remember they would only air them at 2 a.m. on ESPN and having to set the VCR. What a treat it is now! (Except for networks and geoblocks. But we have our ways. Maybe they will get it now with the popularity finally on the ascent, along with music rights issues.) I finally realized in my 60s that I can’t really go to music fests like I used to and stand ankle high in mud. (Well, I CAN but there are only or two bands left I would do that for.) I’m gonna sit in front of a screen and watch every single performance. (By myself, because after trying to get other people interested for decades, I’ve given up, lol.) Or, better, I’m gonna sit at the arena and watch all 27 or whatever skaters in every discipline. Bummed I didn’t realize what a blast it is before, but never had money, time off work, or time away from kids to do it. Still don’t except kids part.

I’m in the US, but I think it goes back to the 1970s watching the Russian women and Japanese men in gymnastics and Europeans in nordic sports when US had few if any contenders. It startled me how my extended family couldn’t root for skaters from other countries during Olys. But it really was fun to have a good team, I have to admit. Best of all to have them getting noticed in a country that has been indifferent for way too long.

I have faves but I love the sport so much I want everyone to appreciate it. The fan wars get it me, but I can’t say I don’t get my hackles up when my faves get dumped on. Or the opinions of a podcaster who don’t like who I like. (They know who they are, lol.) Fortunately indignant righteousness is one of my favorite emotions, but I (mostly) keep it to myself. Not taking the bait on an “unpopular opinion” another site thread, lol.

 

[FlyingFeather]

It should be relatively easy to learn to see the difference between deep and shallow edges, at least where there are pronounced differences.

This would be clearest in the set pattern dances where everyone is doing the exact same steps.

Try choosing a particular dance -- I recommend the Westminster Waltz, which will be used in the Junior Rhythm Dance next season -- and looking for videos on youtube of the same dance performed by elite skaters and by test-level skaters, adult skaters, solo dancers, etc.

Look at how close each team (or solo dancer) gets to the boards along the long sides of the rink and how close to the middle of the ice. Are the curves shaped more like a deep C or a shallower ( shape?

Also look at how deeply the skaters bend their knees. If there are closeups of the blades, look at how much the blade or the whole foot is tilted into the circle.

You probably won't see fine differences between world champions and 5th- or 10th-place elite teams to begin with. But you should be able to see differences between world champs and average juniors or below. That will help you understand the concept at least.

Next summer when the JGP starts, try watching a variety of rhythm dances by teams from the top, middle, and bottom of the standings at their events. Focus specifically on the pattern dance part where they'll be doing the same steps.

The JPG uses random draw for the first phase of competition. So maybe at the next JGP watch the whole RD and decide for yourself which teams you think are probably in the top, middle, or bottom range of the scores, specifically Skating Skills.


Identifying specific turns takes more knowledge, and the quality of turns even more. Quality at that level can be hard to see on video, or even live from a distance. There's a reason judges used to stand on the ice, and then crouch next to the tracings, to judge the quality of turns in school figures.

Occasionally the ISU has made educational videos, TV networks have made educational videos, and youtube posters have made educational videos (trust threads by coaches before those from fans), and posters here have made educational threads.

It would be nice to have a sticky thread or section of the board here that is easy for fans to find, not buried in the Lutz Corner, where we could offer links and explanations for fans looking to learn about skating technique.

And other threads about tech panel calling and judging rules, which rely on the basic technical knowledge.

Here's a thread I made years ago. I'm afraid many of the links there are probably no longer up to date.

G

Thread 'Edges and turns'

Jul 12, 2013

I've been meaning to come back to this topic. Found some time tonight.

I didn't want to just continue on from the Identifying Turns and MITF from the Sine Qua Non thread thread because that started in the middle of the topic instead of starting with the basics. I thought it might be useful to organize the thread more systematically. I'll start by copying an edited version of my last post in that thread, which should really be the beginning of the discussion.

Other skaters: Please suggest edits if you think I got something wrong or didn't explain clearly.

* * * * *
Blades are...

• gkelly
• Replies: 19
• Forum: Skating Skills & Questions

I'd be happy to start new threads where we can discuss technical questions. Is The Edge the right place for them? Can they be made sticky, or can there be one sticky thread with links to ongoing threads?

Where would you want to start?

It would be nice to have a dedicated, easy to find ice dance thread! Especially walking through the turns from a viewer perspective, not a skater perspective. Though, this is part of my problem with FS commentary. I already spend way too much time watching figure skating, and definitely should not watch JGP if I want to have a life, lol. But being an ice dance fan takes some studying!
Honestly, the couple that I can tell has much deeper edges than everyone else is FB/C. Despite other things, I actually was fine with them winning the OGM because even I can tell they have superior edges. But, yeah, when people talk about Chock and Fear having shallower edges, they look the same to me as most everyone else! Do you have any tips/videos that show qualities of turns well? Unless I see ice flying up, I can't tell whether or not a turn is clean. Also, do you know why the Taschlers score as low as they do? To me, their knees seem deeper than teams above them.

 

[Anna K.]

But, yeah, when people talk about Chock and Fear having shallower edges, they look the same to me as most everyone else! Do you have any tips/videos that show qualities of turns well?

You can notice difference when you compare them with earlier versions of their skating. A comparison for Lilah Fear was brought up in this post on the thread about skating skills specifically (unfortunately, we don't have many ice dance examples on that thread but this is a good one).

 

[Anna K.]

I think it's great when fans do want to learn

As for me, I never want to learn

For me, it's not about learning. It's about keeping myself engaged in the entertainment. It's the 80/20 information ratio rule: it has to be 80 percent known and 20 percent new information to provide engagement.
Imho it's a plus that figure skating as a sport not only looks nice but can be also a source of informative material for digest

 

[Mathman]

Well, what's interesting for you is up to you

Although I always recommend looking up the printed version of the study and reading the "acknowledging limitations" list (it's in the Discussion section - if it's meant to be a scientific study of course) carefully before taking it seriously.

Yes, I am actually quite interested in studies of the development of the brain in very young children -- especially with respect to capacity to learn different mathematical concepts. (Are babies geometers or arithmeticians? Answer: geometers. )

Alas, I am interested in many things that I am not an expert in, so I am often not personally qualified to judge the scientific merit of various reports of case studies. However, in this instance, without offering a critique of methodology of any one paper, I do believe that there is a consensus over many studies about the beginnings of "tribal identification" in infants. "Experts," whether serious scholars, armchair quarterbacks or cranks with a weird conspiracy theory to push, are actually pretty consistent on the view that this process begins as as early as three months.

The (U.S.) National Institute of Health puts it it this way:

Prelinguistic infants demonstrate an innate, early-emerging tendency to divide the social world into "us" (similar others) and "them" (dissimilar others), favoring those who resemble themselves. Studies show infants as young as 9–14 months prefer individuals who share their tastes and even favor those who harm individuals with different preferences.

 

[Anna K.]

I do believe that

You want to believe (and you are not alone in this) because it gives you a perfect excuse to ignore the problem (and you are not alone in this either).

Just my honest opinion about your post(s) without offering the critique of methodology. I might add some but given the word in bold... that would be waste of time.

 

[Mathman]

Well, at least this theory (the ubiquity of "us versus them" mentality) explains why, when the referee slaps a red card on the opposing team, everyone on the home team side breaks into a rousing cheer.

Anyway, as for what I believe, I believe that we have our work cut out for us if we want to prove that we are morally superior to chimpanzees. The first two million years of our (genus homo's) history is not encouraging.

 

[Mathman]

You want to believe (and you are not alone in this) because it gives you a perfect excuse to ignore the problem...

Let me try to tackle this more directly.

I do not think that the "problem" introduced in this thread is a problem. Some people latch on to a favorite skater to support and follow. OK.

Others like many skaters and in fact, like the whole idea of figure skating.. OK.

What's the problem?

 

[Anna K.]

What's the problem?

Normalization of aggressive online behavior.

Imho if you normalize that, the minuses outweigh the pluses. Which causes actually a string of problems.
But everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

 

[RobinA]

I generally watch everyone when I can, not just my faves.

This Olympic year in particular I've noticed a lot of negative behavior on social media. Criticism is one thing, but the general nastiness of people who don't seem to be fans of the sport is just annoying. I don't find this forum to be particularly problematic, as people on here are more knowledgeable.