Do we remember the choreography or the skater?

[gsk8]

Would the same program feel iconic with a different skater?

Some programs feel completely tied to the person performing them.

But that raises an interesting question:

If another skater used the exact same choreography and music… would the program still feel special?

A great skater can completely change how a program comes across through aspects like timing, interpretation, quality, presence, emotional connection, etc.

On the other hand, some choreography feels strong enough that multiple skaters could make it work in different ways.

Which programs do you think:

- depended heavily on the skater performing them?
- and which ones had choreography strong enough to stand on their own?

Bonus question:
Are there programs you think another skater could actually perform better?

 

[TallyT]

Usually the skater, because (unless they are someone really forgettable and by the numbers) that is who we see. A really good choreographer would surely be trying to showcase and enhance their client's own style and level of artistry as much as their technique.

 

[Anna K.]

In art, if the artist A launches a piece of art and it feels iconic, when the artist B launches identical or very similar piece of art, it feels copycat and has zero worth in most occasions.

In sport, if the athlete A performs an "iconic" move/choreography, when the athlete B dubs it, it has the same value that can be quality-wise ranked better or worse - here, it's comparing apples to apples. In fact, it's the athlete A who loses some hype because it's no more a unique achievement. It pays to copycat.

Expecting art when watching a sport is a loser's game. Just saying.

 

[dorispulaski]

If a skater can't skate like Jason Brown or Patrick Chan or Gary Beacom, how are they to execute the most memorable choreography those skaters skated to? Some skills are not that easily reproduced.

 

[DizzyFrenchie]

Usually the skater, because (unless they are someone really forgettable and by the numbers) that is who we see. A really good choreographer would surely be trying to showcase and enhance their client's own style and level of artistry as much as their technique.

That's the individuality of the Sport, programs are tailored to a particular Skater's skills, Performance style(s) and abilities... I do appreciate Tatsuki Machida's initiative of a library of programs which could be used by any Skater, for their progression, and to have a reference to compare in videos and "feeling like X" but rather for younger Skaters, and sometimes with adaptations (please, Benoît Richaud, don't kill me!)
In Ballet, in Opera... some parts have been composed with a particular performer in view, but then, sang by all following Singers or danced by Dancers who feel similar abilities... Several Ballets have some interchangeable Variations which are chosen for each series of representations depending mostly on the abilities of the Dancers, and they're often adapted too, but the scope of individualisation remains more limited.

Does anyone know of a skater "at a certain level" (let's say, a Skater who's already competed in a Grand Prix Trophy) who has skated a program made for another? I don't mean just a tribute with the same music, a pose or two in common... really, the same program with perhaps minor adaptations? Be it in Competition or in Show. The only (part) example I have in mind is Yuzuru Hanyu skating to Johnny Weir's Step Sequence in Otoñal when the latter retired from Professional Figure Skating at 2023 Fantasy on Ice.

Here's the original version, at 2005 US Championships:
https://youtu.be/FcZwzEXAMKY


Here's Yuzuru Hanyu skating the Step Sequence:

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[DizzyFrenchie]

Mozart, who was or had been in love with Soprano Aloysia Weber, wrote for her Popoli di Tessaglia to be inserted in Gluck's Alceste, and I read somewhere that until Natalie Dessay it had never been sang properly in recording times (the A change of frequency must be taken into account of course):

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I wonder if it's not an unique, or very infrequent example, of an opera song written to be sung by one person only? Although one could argue that Mozart himself had similar intentions with the Queen of the Night Arias written for her sister, Josefa, but it has been sung successfully by more Soprani:

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[BlissfulSynergy]

With the best performances, IMO, it's the skater (matched with the right music & amazing choreographer) who brings out the choreography. The right music selections and cuts are key. But everything must come together for the moment to remain special and unforgettable.

Think Janet Lynn: Afternoon of a Faun Think Michelle Kwan: Salome; East of Eden; Rachmaninoff sp; The Red Violin; Romanza; Lyra Angelica; Hands; Fields of Gold; Dante's Prayer; Ariane; Tosca; You Raise Me Up; et al.
Think Torvill & Dean: Boléro FD; Rock n Roll OSP; Barnum FD; Mack and Mabel FD; et al.
Think John Curry: Don Quixote
Think Toller Cranston: Graduation Ball; The Firebird; et al.
Think Paul Wylie: Schindler's List; Henry V; Why God Why? (Miss Saigon); JFK; This Is The Moment; Carmina Burana; The Untouchables; Apollo 13; On the Waterfront; Bring Him Home; Go the Distance; et al.
Think Savchenko/ Szolkowy: Lost In Space; Send in the Clowns; Angels & Demons; The Mission; Pina; et al.
Think Daisuke Takahashi: Hip Hawk (based on Swan Lake); In the Garden of Souls; Blues for Klook; et al.
Think Jeremy Abbott: Sing, Sing, Sing; Exogenesis Symphony Pt 3; Bring Him Home; A Day in the Life; Hometown Glory; Rhythm of Love; et al.
Think Denis Ten: Sing, Sing, Sing; Danse Macabre; The Lady & the Hooligan; Adios Nonino; The Artist; Caruso; Ambush From Ten Sides; et al.
Think Jason Brown: Flow Like Water; The Question of U; Liebesträume; Riverdance; Writing's On the Wall; The Scent of Love; Love Is A Bitch; Sinner Man; Slaughter On Tenth Avenue; et al.
Think Gordeeva/ Grinkov: Reverie; Requiem; Beethoven Piano Sonatas Nos 8 & 14; Carmen; Mendelssohn Symphony No 4; Liebesträume; Meditation from Thäis; et al.
Think Gilles/ Poirier: Hitchcock; Pure Imagination & Sweet Dreams; Perry Mason Theme; Both Sides Now; Evita; Wuthering Hts.; Vincent; et al.
Think Virtue/ Moir: El Tango de Roxanne; Hip Hip Chin Chin; Dark Eyes; The Umbrellas of Cherbourg; et al.
Think Papadakis/ Cizeron: Adagio from Concerto No 23 (Mozart); Moonlight Sonata; Rain In Your Black Eyes & To Build a Home; et al.
Think Fournier-Beaudry/ Cizeron: The Whale

This is, of course, only a few of the all-time greatest fs performances. This list is long, but it obviously barely scratches the ice surface!

 

[UmeYoSake]

Does anyone know of a skater "at a certain level" (let's say, a Skater who's already competed in a Grand Prix Trophy) who has skated a program made for another? I don't mean just a tribute with the same music, a pose or two in common... really, the same program with perhaps minor adaptations? Be it in Competition or in Show.

Ever seen Tatsuki Machida's "Keishou (inheritance/succession) Project"?
#1 "What is Keishou Project" ~ Tatsuki teaches Keiji Tanaka one of his programs, "Je te veux" that Tatsuki skated at Prince Ice World in 2014 and Keiji skated the program at Prince Ice World in 2021 (which I did not get to see unfortunately)

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Also we are going to see Kazuki Tomono and Yuna Aoki's "La la land" in Fantasy on Ice, starting May 30th. Kazuki is going to do Yuna's La la land and Yuna is going to do Kazuki's La la land a bit, not fully but as part of their collaboration, according to their interview.

 

[4everchan]

Mozart, who was or had been in love with Soprano Aloysia Weber, wrote for her Popoli di Tessaglia to be inserted in Gluck's Alceste, and I read somewhere that until Natalie Dessay it had never been sang properly in recording times (the A change of frequency must be taken into account of course):

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I wonder if it's not an unique, or very infrequent example, of an opera song written to be sung by one person only? Although one could argue that Mozart himself had similar intentions with the Queen of the Night Arias written for her sister, Josefa, but it has been sung successfully by more Soprani:

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Off topic but though Natalie Dessay's performance is highly praised, most musicians and critics would place Edita Gruberova as the GOAT of Popoli. Also, since it's an aria that is performed without the context of a Mozart opera, it is performed alone in concert version. Composers write operas to be done by different casts. If Mozart had included this aria in one of his own operas, he would written an "ossia" making the high note optional.

Also, Josefa wasn't Mozart's sister but his sister-in-law. (His wife, Constanza, had a nice voice and was a very well trained soprano but a limited range. She sang the C minor mass though, which was written with her in mind).

The reason for the Queen's arias being mastered by more singers is physiological. The Queen of the Night's aria goes up to the high F (F6). Popoli goes up one full tone higher, the high G which is extremely rare for a human voice to meet. So many singers cannot sing it at all.

Aloysa Weber was able to reach the high A flat, one semi-tone even higher. She was truly exceptional in her range. So in that sense, yes, a composer can write something for a specific range or singer in mind. Most of the times, others will be able to do it, because well, real life... real humans... not the diva in the 5th element.

Figure skating choreographers do not work at all like music composers. The latter create for posterity knowing that the arias will be performed by many different people. Choreographers work with a skater in mind, knowing that their programs will not be replicated.
At the same time, it would be very hard in my humble opinion to create a program that only one skater could do. I guess that skater would need to be able to do moves that nobody else can do. Perhaps a skater like Lucinda Ruh with her unique spins would be hardest to replicate. But since the point in skating is not to replicate, there is no need to train for that. I am pretty sure that if a great flexible spinner had a particular incentive to learn Lucinda's spins, she could do it. Just like musicians have all this repertoire they can attack and learn.

 

[frompolandwithlove]

If another skater used the exact same choreography and music… would the program still feel special?

Sometimes, yes. Some programs are based on certain type of emotion, have good build up and lead to satisfying conclusion. Take it from skater A and give it to skater B (who has similiar level of expression) and it would be just as good. But "special" is a vague word - sometimes what makes it special is that it's performed by a beloved skater. I can't imagine "Seimei" being performed by anyone else - not because it's too hard for anyone else, but because it has personal meaning to only one skater and with anyone else it would feel flat. On the other hand, I can imagine Josefin Taljegard doing Alysa's McArthur Park and it still would be an awesome, energetic program loved by the audience.

Are there programs you think another skater could actually perform better?

I want to see Ilia's Malagueña performed by some other skater. I think it's a great program that calls for stronger posture, much more polished lines and less flashy tricks. If I could, I'd travel back in time to see if Javi could make it work (and keep it alongside his own Malagueña). Or maybe Stephane Lambiel, even now, just without jumps? I can't name any current skater for this role tho.

On a side note, for me many programs for women are basically interchangeable, because they are made for the classic ice princess and don't require much personality. They can be good programs, even great, but personally I often can't say later which program was performed by which skater, even though I liked them.

 

[el henry]

We remember the skater, as the "front facing" interpreter, even when they are a team.

Choreographers know when they have a team that works. Other skaters have tried Rohene choreo, but no one does it like Jason. And Rohene knows that. Rohene said this about Jason and Sinnerman (which I think is Jason's seminal work, even above Riverdance)

“I knew this was a special piece of music, it was a special time, and I knew Jason was special,” Ward said, adding that although the skater is not Black, “He has been close to people in the African-American community for so long, he has a different perspective than some people would have. He has the ability to make people stop and watch him and feel something. It doesn’t matter the race, the sex or the age, or anything.”

Jason Brown, Rohene Ward seek to spread the light with “Sinnerman” program

When choreographer Rohene Ward contemplates a new program for Jason Brown, he asks himself: How are we trying to touch people? With frustrations in the Black community growing and COVID-19 tightening its grip, Ward thought it was time to honor Alvin Ailey.

www.nbcsports.com

 

[Diana Delafield]

Expecting art when watching a sport is a loser's game. Just saying.

I don't follow tennis, so I don't have any opinion either way, but in an interview I read yesterday, Naomi Osaka defended her outlandish entrance costumes and matchwear. She considers tennis to be a performance art-sport and her costumes are part of her performance.

 

[Diana Delafield]

I watch what a skater does, not who is doing it, to see if there are small moves I could try myself, or how they do something better than I know I do and can I improve my version. There are a lot of famous names whose faces I don't recognize in a plain photo, and who I don't recall if I've ever seen them skate or not. I guess that puts me in the choreography camp and not the skater fandom, but even there it's little moments I remember, very seldom a program in its entirety. With very few exceptions, I'm a fan of skating, not of any particular skaters.

 

[DizzyFrenchie]

Ever seen Tatsuki Machida's "Keishou (inheritance/succession) Project"?
#1 "What is Keishou Project" ~ Tatsuki teaches Keiji Tanaka one of his programs, "Je te veux" that Tatsuki skated at Prince Ice World in 2014 and Keiji skated the program at Prince Ice World in 2021 (which I did not get to see unfortunately)

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Also we are going to see Kazuki Tomono and Yuna Aoki's "La la land" in Fantasy on Ice, starting May 30th. Kazuki is going to do Yuna's La la land and Yuna is going to do Kazuki's La la land a bit, not fully but as part of their collaboration, according to their interview.

I wrote about Tatsuki Machida's project in my post, and knew about Keiji Tanaka skating to Je te veux (a program I love on a music I love, although when I read the lyrics I blushed a lot) but I don't think that he's skated to it in a show? But I didn't know that Kazuki Tomono and Yuna Aoki were going to exchange part of their La La Lands! I hope that we're going to have videos!

Off topic but though Natalie Dessay's performance is highly praised, most musicians and critics would place Edita Gruberova as the GOAT of Popoli. Also, since it's an aria that is performed without the context of a Mozart opera, it is performed alone in concert version. Composers write operas to be done by different casts. If Mozart had included this aria in one of his own operas, he would written an "ossia" making the high note optional.

Also, Josefa wasn't Mozart's sister but his sister-in-law. (His wife, Constanza, had a nice voice and was a very well trained soprano but a limited range. She sang the C minor mass though, which was written with her in mind).

The reason for the Queen's arias being mastered by more singers is physiological. The Queen of the Night's aria goes up to the high F (F6). Popoli goes up one full tone higher, the high G which is extremely rare for a human voice to meet. So many singers cannot sing it at all.

Aloysa Weber was able to reach the high A flat, one semi-tone even higher. She was truly exceptional in her range. So in that sense, yes, a composer can write something for a specific range or singer in mind. Most of the times, others will be able to do it, because well, real life... real humans... not the diva in the 5th element.

Figure skating choreographers do not work at all like music composers. The latter create for posterity knowing that the arias will be performed by many different people. Choreographers work with a skater in mind, knowing that their programs will not be replicated.
At the same time, it would be very hard in my humble opinion to create a program that only one skater could do. I guess that skater would need to be able to do moves that nobody else can do. Perhaps a skater like Lucinda Ruh with her unique spins would be hardest to replicate. But since the point in skating is not to replicate, there is no need to train for that. I am pretty sure that if a great flexible spinner had a particular incentive to learn Lucinda's spins, she could do it. Just like musicians have all this repertoire they can attack and learn.

Let's not enter a Natalie Dessay vs Edita Gruberova pillow fight in which anyway I have no chances because my tessiture preferences are completely arbitrary and I have so little idea of detailed technical elements.

Sorry about using the pronoun her instead of writing Aloysia Weber in full.

I think that while proficiency can be worked more than range (or else), there were still biological limitations, unless to quote BBC 1995 Pride and Prejudice, they "fudged or slurred [their] way through the difficult passages", I don't mean just FF-J.

I really agree with you on the respective aims of Opera composers and Figure Skating Choreographers.

Well, there's Yuzuru Hanyu of course, it's been so many years that he's been skating programs nobody else could skate, even taking away the Quadruple Jumps, when he self-choreographs he does have that in mind too. But he's the one and only and so far ahead, so it's understandable that you don't count him.

 

[4everchan]

I wrote about Tatsuki Machida's project in my post, and knew about Keiji Tanaka skating to Je te veux (a program I love on a music I love, although when I read the lyrics I blushed a lot) but I don't think that he's skated to it in a show? But I didn't know that Kazuki Tomono and Yuna Aoki were going to exchange part of their La La Lands! I hope that we're going to have videos!


Let's not enter a Natalie Dessay vs Edita Gruberova pillow fight in which anyway I have no chances because my tessiture preferences are completely arbitrary and I have so little idea of detailed technical elements.

Sorry about using the pronoun her instead of writing Aloysia Weber in full.

I think that while proficiency can be worked more than range (or else), there were still biological limitations, unless to quote BBC 1995 Pride and Prejudice, they "fudged or slurred [their] way through the difficult passages", I don't mean just FF-J.

I really agree with you on the respective aims of Opera composers and Figure Skating Choreographers.

Well, there's Yuzuru Hanyu of course, it's been so many years that he's been skating programs nobody else could skate, even taking away the Quadruple Jumps, when he self-choreographs he does have that in mind too. But he's the one and only and so far ahead, so it's understandable that you don't count him.

I don't personally think yuzuru Hanyu's skating is as unique as some of you make it. His personality, perhaps.

 

[Magill]

I think what most people remember is the performance - i.e. a skater skating a program (choreography plus music) in a specific costume (some are more memorable, some are more bland). I can think of cases when any of these elements were more memorable than others, and of cases when they all came together creating a perfect storm (Seimei was mentioned earlier and is a perfect example of such a perfect mix, Yulia Lipnitskaya's Schindler's List is another).

Still, an important difference is that a truly great skater can make any choreography memorable, skating to any music and even in his training gear, while a greatest choreography will not become a hit if skated poorly and with skills lacking.
So I guess in the end of the day what matters most is the skater.

Kevin Aymoz, Adam Siao Him Fa, Nobunari Oda - when asked on various occasions by interviewers about one skill they would like to "borrow" from any other skater, all pointed to Yuzuru Hanyu and what they called his charisma which they all claimed to have experienced themselves when sharing the ice or competing in the same competitions with him. They all agreed this is the one thing which is as priceless as it gets but cannot be learnt. But this charisma is not being funny or cute in interviews but his unique ability to make whole arenas stop and forget to breathe when he's just taking the opening pose on the ice.

As to whether Yuzuru's skating is unique or not, it is not "some of us trying to present it as unique", as this is actually a rather widely held belief in the big wide world out there, particularly popular among skaters themselves
Anyone's personal opinion may differ, of course.

 

[DizzyFrenchie]

I don't personally think yuzuru Hanyu's skating is as unique as some of you make it. His personality, perhaps.

I didn't mean his personality at all, because we all have different perceptions; some Skaters are more generally thought so than others.
I meant the technical means of expression, and that nobody, absolutely nobody else could skate the Steps and other non-Jump Elements in his skates (let's ditch Biellmanns and Doughnuts although they are something) following the same pattern on the ice; while he could skate to, I think, any Program of any other Skater (before or after his Maintenance, with a probable e call on a 4F, only edge Axels, not Skid, and cleaner jumps overall except a possible more messy 4A landing if there's one, but with more rotation overall) (not that he would want to skate to a poor program). But he would NOT skate these programs from other skaters as they themselves would do! With great Programs from great Skater it would be a tribute, an expression of admiration/appreciation, rather than an attempt at imitation? That's what he did with Johnny Weir's Otoñal, of course we know that Johnny Weir has been one of his two main childhood influences. (And we're back to the topic, but in this respect, there's no reason to single him out except on the fact that he can do it all, which isn't the subject of the thread.)

I think what most people remember is the performance - i.e. a skater skating a program (choreography plus music) in a specific costume (some are more memorable, some are more bland). I can think of cases when any of these elements were more memorable than others, and of cases when they all came together creating a perfect storm (Seimei was mentioned earlier and is a perfect example of such a perfect mix, Yulia Lipnitskaya's Schindler's List is another).

Who else? The music isn't exactly a never-skated one... And as to charisma...

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Still, an important difference is that a truly great skater can make any choreography memorable, skating to any music and even in his training gear, while a greatest choreography will not become a hit if skated poorly and with skills lacking.
So I guess in the end of the day what matters most is the skater.

I suppose that you meant this? (I do believe that a few other Skaters can be quite musical when warming up on another skater's music.)

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[4everchan]

I won't burden this thread with more opinions about a specific skater. I said what I said

 

[Mathman]

To me, the programs that feature the most memorable choreography, for the most part, just couldn't be done by anyone else -- for instance John Curry's Don Quixote or Kurt Browning's Nyah.

But once in a while the choreographic conception is quite eye-catching even if the performer is nort a world champion. Here's Stephanie Rosenthal at 2006 U.S. Nationals.

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[TallyT]

There are two things that occur to me, and using other skaters as examples.

Jason. Sinnerman or Riverdance. Medvedeva's Anna Karenina, Liu's Macarthur Park. Kwan's Fields of Gold. All are iconic to them and them alone and personally while I can mentally try and imagine others using the same programs... there is no way to me that they would have the same impact. Shoma's Loco may be another, but on the other hand I can mentally visualise his and Yuma's Turandots being swapped and working (as far as choreo goes.) So a big part of it for me is how the skater in question can stamp their own style, their artistic and emotional skills and uniqueness on the specific program but also how well the choreographer has understood and displayed thise qualities.

On the other hand, there are certain male skaters (and no, I will not name and ask that no one else does, that way derailing lies) who start the season with a reasonably complex and interesting choreo, and then as time passes strip it out until it is a shell of what was created. In these cases, it is the skater and their reputation that keep the points coming. Or there are cases where injured skaters have had to drop jumps... but the choreo is still there and it is still so, so them.