Ladies LP - actual competition

[Tonichelle]

who should have been above Kim & Brent at Nationals?

 

[Andalusia]

...and what went down tonight proves that that would have happened. There is the SP complication, though. Alyssa can score ~60 in the short program if she nails it. I don't think the others have that capability. With visible mistakes, including ONE FALL she still got 55.

I don't think Alissa's the only one capable. If Rachael and Caroline hit their SPs with all cylinders going (that includes a ratified 3-3, which both of them attempt more often than not), I feel they could easily surpass Alissa internationally. Based on what we've seen today, the judges don't think Alissa is so far ahead of these two, PCS-wise. And Alissa isn't so superior of a technician that she can afford to do 3-2s and simpler jumps and still rack up those high GOE scores ala Joannie.

 

[samba]

who should have been above Kim & Brent at Nationals?

Too many to mention; the Hubbells, Jane/Todd, Morgan/Lief

 

[Luciana]

Heck, English is my first language and I don't even know some of them.

It's possible if you're a littel older. It's my case.

 

[cosmos]

I am not a fan of any US ladies. That being said,

Wow, many posts from fellow Americans would hurt Alyssa so much, if she read them. I hope she wouldn't.

 

[Luciana]

I wanted to laugh at the US judges' faces, hope they realize how stupid they are. The pre-judged PCS and GOE are killing the sports. They dumped Zhang because she did not do to well at GP when Alissa did better.:yes:

I agree. They shouldn't have dump Zhang. She has lots of potential.

 

[bekalc]

I wanted to laugh at the US judges' faces, hope they realize how stupid they are. The pre-judged PCS and GOE are killing the sports. They dumped Zhang because she did not do to well at GP when Alissa did better.

It was ridiculous because Alissa didn't do that much better than Caroline. Caroline had a pretty bad skate in Canada, but improved in France, to be quite frank. Wheras Alissa was getting worse as the season progressed.

I thought that Caroline was a much better bet than Alissa was because Caroline is normally very good at delivering under pressure. Wheras Alissa not so much.

Nationals proved that Flatt and Zhang were our best skaters under pressure, but the USFSA decided that "didn't matter."

 

[samba]

It was ridiculous because Alissa didn't do that much better than Caroline. Caroline had a pretty bad skate in Canada, but improved in France, to be quite frank. Wheras Alissa was getting worse as the season progressed.

I thought that Caroline was a much better bet than Alissa was because Caroline is normally very good at delivering under pressure. Wheras Alissa not so much.

Nationals proved that Flatt and Zhang were our best skaters under pressure, but the USFSA decided that "didn't matter."

They could have done better if they did not pre-judge them, let the skaters control their own destiny. The stupid PCS and GOE allow judges manipulate the results. We let a handful of people dictate the Nat.results, not the skaters themselves, how pathetic!!

 

[R.D.]

Wow, many posts from fellow Americans would hurt Alyssa so much, if she read them. I hope she wouldn't.

It's all due to the Olympics, that's all. People REALLY want those three spots back for the US, and most believe/fear that the current team of Czisny/Flatt isn't quite as strong as, say, a Zhang/Flatt team would be. But I still maintain that anything can happen and anyone can have a good skate or a bad skate on any given day.

But Alyssa has a lot of supporters and fans, and deep down, I KNOW that some of these same posters lamenting the subject are among them. If this were last year, none of this would be discussed. But this is not the year to take chances...or is it?

 

[R.D.]

Part of me just really hopes that Czisny can just have the skates of her life and prove all the doubters wrong. Even if it doesn't ultimately end with the US getting 3 spots. At least we can say she did her best.

 

[skatingbc]

I am not making an excuse about a specific skater. The quality of ice was really bad. Even I could see some ice particles when skaters jumped, and also saw a lot of water melt on the surface. Also, what you said about Canada loving their figure skating, that is not always true. Even they decided to have Ice hockey as the last game of the olympics. I can't believe what you said after I saw how poor the ice was

I don't think you can fairly assess ice quality from your living room, sorry. When I competed, which was only a couple years ago, we would train at the Coliseum while our other arena was being used to film Miracle, the movie about that US hockey team. The Coliseum isn't a freezing cold arena so the ice doesn't tend to be as hard. This can actually be considered as better figure skating conditions. And as for Canadians not loving figure skating...wrong. Just because the last event of the Vancouver Olympics isn't figure skating doesn't mean it isn't loved just as much as Hockey!

 

[bekalc]

Part of me just really hopes that Czisny can just have the skates of her life and prove all the doubters wrong. Even if it doesn't ultimately end with the US getting 3 spots. At least we can say she did her best.

It's not that I hate Alissa. IF Alissa had landed 5 triples at Nationals, than I'd be all she's on the team. PERIOD, end of story.
No matter how Zhang/Flatt placed tonight.

But that's not what happened. What happened is that Rachael and Caroline delivered at Nationals skating as well as both could skate.

Whereas Alissa skated sure a clean short but a very poor long with only 3 triples. And instead of the judges saying, well you know what we are going to give the National championship to the girl who delivered on both nights and put the two girls who delivered on both nights on the World Team

The judges instead decided to play with the GOE's and inflate Alissa's PCS, to a ridiculous level that she'd never get internationally. So that Alissa was on the Team and National champion. With more consistent Flatt on the team as well and a "screwed Zhang"

It wasn't right and it wasn't fair. So this is not about hating on Alissa or wishing ill on Alissa. So for me to have Alissa just "prove everyone wrong" would only encourage the USFSA that it would be a good idea to do this crappy thing again.

And this is why people are so angry. And I'd be angry about it no matter what the year was. Because it's not right. But I'm more angry about it now because it's an Olympic qualifying year, which is why it was even more stupid for the USFSA to hold up an inconsistent skater.

 

[Buttercup]

Many have compared the results from this competition with those from the European Championships. While the scores didn't seem particularly inflated or deflated, I think the past has shown that it is risky to compare specific scores from two different events. The scoring potential these skaters have at Worlds is debatable.

I agree. It's true that the European ladies are not very strong this year, but even taking that into account, the standard at Euros wasn't great and they may well do better in LA. And of course, scores can vary between judging panels. I think the American ladies might be able to get that third spot back, but I'd put the odds at worse than 50-50. The Canadian ladies probably have as good a chance at getting this - if not better. Really the only sure bet is the Japanese women, and considering how many good ones there are even three spots for Olys doesn't seem to be enough.

 

[Medusa]

Well, I was curious about that Triple Lutz from Kim Yu-Na. Here is the picture from the SBS broadcast.

​

Nearly the entire blade is already back on the ice here - and they probably counted from the point the toepick hit the ice. So I guess, yes, it's underrotated. You really can see how her body is even less rotated than her feet. She is landing and practically still facing us.

But - I still find it kind of nitpicky. You (or at least I) couldn't spot it. Not in real time, and it's very difficult in slow motion, too. As a comparision, here is Rochette's Triple Lutz, same perspective. You can see, that she also is nearly one quarter short - but just nearly. Her body is definitely more rotated than Yu-Na's.

​

Now, a few completely rotated Triple Lutzes look like this

Takahashi: great view, different perspective though. But you see perfectly well that he really lands in this moment, the ice is coming up from where the toepick hits the ice - his body is already perfectly aligned and rotated. (I did super-super-slow-motion: does Takahashi have the tiniest Flutz?)

​

Lambiel: that's actually one of the best I could find.

​

Joubert: despite the fact that his Flip looks more powerful, his Lutz is great, perfect outside edge, just like Lambiel. I think you see both times that Lambiel's and Joubert's bodies are fully rotated, too - not just their feet.

​

 

[ks777]

It's not that I hate Alissa. IF Alissa had landed 5 triples at Nationals, than I'd be all she's on the team. PERIOD, end of story.
No matter how Zhang/Flatt placed tonight.

But that's not what happened. What happened is that Rachael and Caroline delivered at Nationals skating as well as both could skate.

Whereas Alissa skated sure a clean short but a very poor long with only 3 triples. And instead of the judges saying, well you know what we are going to give the National championship to the girl who delivered on both nights and put the two girls who delivered on both nights on the World Team

The judges instead decided to play with the GOE's and inflate Alissa's PCS, to a ridiculous level that she'd never get internationally. So that Alissa was on the Team and National champion. With more consistent Flatt on the team as well and a "screwed Zhang"

It wasn't right and it wasn't fair. So this is not about hating on Alissa or wishing ill on Alissa. So for me to have Alissa just "prove everyone wrong" would only encourage the USFSA that it would be a good idea to do this crappy thing again.

And this is why people are so angry. And I'd be angry about it no matter what the year was. Because it's not right. But I'm more angry about it now because it's an Olympic qualifying year, which is why it was even more stupid for the USFSA to hold up an inconsistent skater.

Ok took me a long time to read all the posts but I finally caught up !!! Yeah beklac, I totally agree with you on the US national judges.
Is there anyway we can send Zhang to worlds instead?

Some people seem to think Mao was held up by the judges but she did landed 4 triples(one triple axel) and got higher GOEs than Zhang. Actually Zhang didn't get any GOE+on her jumps.

Mao's score of 118 was very beatable, not like judges gave her 125 points or 130. She won because Yuna and Rochette didn't take it.

 

[feraina]

Well, I love Caroline to death, and I'm very sensitive to unfair judging on her behalf (stupid US judges!), but I actually didn't feel like Mao was really overscored relative to Caroline. Mao has the most freaking amazing footwork sequence, the best basic skating skills of any lady I've ever seen (and that includes my all-time-favorite Michelle Kwan, who never had footwork as intricate or crisp as Mao's, though of course she was competing under a different system), and the best ladies' 3A ever. Just her 3A, which is worth so much more than any other triple (as it should; and I think the judges should've been more generous with the GOE there than they were), and her deservedly higher PCS, should put her over Caroline, who really can't match in terms of speed or skating skills (now, if Caroline had fully rotated the 3F-3T and skated with as much confidence and energy in the first half as she did in the second, then that'd be a different story).

And I certainly felt like Mao was better than Yu-na, whose 3T was definitely under-rotated in both the 3F-3T and the 2A-3T, and yet she was only hit with downgrades on the 3Z, 2R, and the 3R that she completely under-rotated and fell on. If anything, Yu-na is over-scored. Caroline ought to have beaten Yu-na in the LP (though not overall since Yu-na had such a strong lead).

I was so upset over National's, when I felt like Caroline was purposely held down (especially with the !'s on the three 3F's, usually her money jump; not to mention the 10-point PCS difference in SP + LP, compared to Alissa -- only 2 points difference here at 4CC!), and Alissa purposely held up. Not only did Caroline not get to go to World's in her hometown, but with an inconsistent Alissa there will probably end up being two spots at the Olympics, and then the same judging panel will probably try to keep Caroline home again next year and make her miss the Olympics altogether. I am not confident that the US judges have learned anything. Last year Caroline did way better than anyone else internationally at the senior level, and then she made that one little mistake (stepping out of the 3F-3T) in the SP and followed up with a perfect LP, and somehow only ended up in 4th in the LP and overall. She came back with strong skates at JW, and this season with a bronze at TEB (she was injured, sick, and under-prepared for SC, though she didn't publicize any of that), skated two great programs at National's, and still can't go to World's. I am worried that even if she does really well internationally next season, the US judges will still find a way to keep her home when it comes to the Olympics.

I do find it ironic how everyone at FSU is lamenting that Caroline's not being sent to World's, whereas normally the hating on her there is extraordinary, and I don't remember seeing anyone there writing Caroline should've placed first or second at National's at the time (and now many are saying she should've won). How things change sometimes!

 

[bekalc]

I do find it ironic how everyone at FSU is lamenting that Caroline's not being sent to World's, whereas normally the hating on her there is extraordinary, and I don't remember seeing anyone there writing Caroline should've placed first or second at National's at the time (and now many are saying she should've won). How things change sometimes!

I wasn't sure what to think about Nationals because Caroline was getting a couple of jumps downgraded internationally so I wasn't sure I trusted 6 triple jumps ratified by the USFSA. But I did mention the idea that Caroline has as good of spins as Alissa and so the whole spins thing is ridiculous.

And I checked Yu-na landed backwards on her 3flip/3toe. And I think her double axel/3toe, that did look weird but I think it was just because she was so darn close to the boards. It's ridiculous to say they wouldn't check if they downgraded her other jumps.

But I was saying weeks before Nationals that Flatt/Zhang was the best World team possible.

 

[Tigger]

Way to go Joannie!!! I'm actually glad she was a bit tight here. We all knew a rough outing of the FS was due, so if that was it, then that's a very good thing w/Worlds being the only competition left for the year. She had a clean short and not too bad long program for the first time in I don't know how long. Heading into Worlds, I hope she can keep the momentum going.

However, I am THRILLED for Cynthia!! I'm almost postitive when she landed that 3 jump combination she yelled. Only reason I'm not too sure is because I was too. I was in tears and just ecstatic for her. It's been a long road back and she so deserves what is now coming her way. I only wish for more of the same in LA for her.

I enjoyed Yu-Na's program and yes, she was tight too, but considering how many Koreans/Korean Canadians were in the crowd, it was pretty close to a hometown skate for her. She had to be nervous, but as PJ Kwong said, it was also pretty close to what she'll be experiencing a year from now when Yu-Na's back in that building for the Olympics. So not a bad performance from her, just a bit tight.

I wish I could say something about Mao, but halfway through the warmup, I couldn't wait any longer and had to run to the bathroom. When I came back down here, she was doing her curtseys, so... And no, she's not my bathroom break, but it was either that or have a pair of very wet pants, so...

You know for the first time for a Medal Ceremony in Canada, it's the first time I've heard the lyrics being sung to a National Anthem when it wasn't either Oh Canada or The Star Spangled Banner. While great, it was a bit odd, but in a good way.

Oh and my prize for who I felt sorry for the most tonight goes to those two fans w/the "Mao" sign in the middle of that mass of Yu-Na fans and their signs for her. They looked so lonely there.

Who finished higher out of the Cantu sisters? I'm thinking Ana Ceclia, but I had my back turned when the final results list was shown and when I turned back, they reshowed Patrick's SP. It was nice to see Michele skate again. I remember her from when 4CC were in Hamilton and she really had an air of presence around her then too. She and her sister just make you want to watch them and I enjoy their skating. Good Luck to who will be representing Mexico at Worlds!!

 

[cosmos]

And I certainly felt like Mao was better than Yu-na, whose 3T was definitely under-rotated in both the 3F-3T and the 2A-3T, and yet she was only hit with downgrades on the 3Z, 2R, and the 3R that she completely under-rotated and fell on. If anything, Yu-na is over-scored. Caroline ought to have beaten Yu-na in the LP (though not overall since Yu-na had such a strong lead).

Don't be ridiculous. Your eye is better than slo-mo? Actually, there was no obvious UR in yuNa's jumps. As someone pointed out, it was close to nit picking. I mean, applying the same standard, they would have found URs from other skaters.

 

[feraina]

Don't be ridiculous. Your eye is better than slo-mo? Actually, there was no obvious UR in yuNa's jumps. As someone pointed out, it was close to nit picking. I mean, applying the same standard, they would have found URs from other skaters.

Which downgrade was nitpicking? From Medusa's screen caps it's very obvious Yu-na under-rotated the 3Z; and for the 3R you don't need the screen caps to see the UR. I'd very much like to see similar screen caps of Yuna's two 3T's. I could be wrong, but I saw the UR's even in real time.