The Short Program jumps

[Blades of Passion]

Almost every skater these days does their 3 SP jumping passes right in row. You would think the judges would mark people down on the choreography/composition mark for that, but it never happens. I would like to see the ISU send a memo to the judges about this.

Also, does anyone miss seeing the guys do the 3Axel-3Toe? I sort of wish they would change the SP jump requirements for the guys to:

1. An axel (at least a double) in combination (with at least a double)

2. A triple or Quad preceded by steps and/or hops and/or single rotation jump(s)

3. A triple or Quad preceded by a spread eagle, ina bauer, hydroblade, back drag, or spiral (forward or backward)

(and each jump has to be different, of course)

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

^^^
Because it's all about points. Judges will come down heavy if those jumps are not executed propely. They are not looking for anything artistic. It's just how well the elements are performed. That's the story of the Short.

 

[Tinymavy15]

I agree that it is getting annoying how all the skaters do the same thing. Bad enough they all the same elements, more or less, but the same order too. SPs are beinging to look dreadfully like test patterns set to music.

Watching program where the jumps are spread out through the program are so refreshing. Joannie's short this year, i believe had the elements placed nicely. I liked Yu-na's ina bauer into the 2 axel she did at the very end last year...i think this year she did all three jumping passes back to back.

 

[gkelly]

Almost every skater these days does their 3 SP jumping passes right in row. You would think the judges would mark people down on the choreography/composition mark for that, but it never happens. I would like to see the ISU send a memo to the judges about this.

A couple of ways to address this.

-Add a distribution bonus to the short program similar to that in the long, such that any jump element performed after the halfway point or as the fifth element or later would have its value multiplied by 1.1.

At least that would pull the ladies' double axels later in the program, and some good jumpers might be encouraged to put their solo triple later in the program as well.

Do not expect to see quads, or many triple axels or jump combos, after the first minute or so of the program. If you changed the rules so that there was an even larger bonus for doing so, you would also see a lot more mistakes on those jumps from those skaters brave enough to try them later.

-Add an explicit bullet point to the criteria for the Choreography component to the effect that judges should reward distribution of elements throughout the ice surface (this has always been an unwritten criterion under both judging systems -- some judges put more weight on it than others) and also distribution of jumps temporally across the program duration (ditto); if it's spelled out explicitly in the rules, more judges will pay attention to it.

Even so, it would probably only make a difference of 0.25 or 0.5 in most judges' Choreography scores, so it's still much more valuable to the skaters to actually rotate and land the jumps, which is much easier to do early in the program.

Also, does anyone miss seeing the guys do the 3Axel-3Toe? I sort of wish they would change the SP jump requirements for the guys to:

1. An axel (at least a double) in combination (with at least a double)

2. A triple or Quad preceded by steps and/or hops and/or single rotation jump(s)

3. A triple or Quad preceded by a spread eagle, ina bauer, hydroblade, back drag, or spiral (forward or backward)

I could see doing something like this (requiring an axel jump in combination) if two or all three of the jump elements were to be specified the way they are in junior short programs and used to be for seniors in the 1970s and 80s, and the specific requirements rotate every year. So some skaters might be disadvantaged by one year's requirements but will have a better set of elements for their strengths the following year.

Requiring the axel to be in combination means that you would see a narrower range of jump combinations than you do now.

I thought you wanted more variety, not less.

For ladies, that rule would give a huge advantage to anyone who's capable of triple axel-double toe combination (only one or two of the current skaters), or double axel-triple toe (probably less than 10% of senior ladies). We'd see a lot of double axel-double toe and a fair amount of double axel-double loop. Same for the lower-level senior guys who can't do triple axels at all.
But the combos don't allow for the same possibilities of creative exits that the solo double axel offers.

For men, compared with the current rules, it would seriously disadvantage skaters who have shaky triple axels. Currently they can use it as the solo axel and even if they get -1 or -2 GOE it will still be worth more than a double. If they have to put another jump on the end, they may be unable to do so at all or unable to get credit for it at all if they step out of the axel landing, or at best they might lose even more GOE points if they try the second jump from a bad landing of the first and make additional mistake(s).

So they'd be safer to stick to double axel in the short program.

(In the early/mid-1990s, when the solo axel needed to be double, guys in that situation would usually do triple lutz-triple toe for the short program combo and save their triple axel attempts for the long program. When the rules changed in 1998-99, a lot more mid-level guys started attempting the triple axel in the short because they didn't need to put another jump on the end of it.)

I think what you're looking for is more variety in general, right? And also more triple axel-triple toe combinations from the guys who are good at triple axels and good at combos?

So how about rewriting the senior SP jump rules to something like this:

1. A jump of 2.5 or more revolutions preceded by steps and/or hops and/or single rotation jump(s)

2. A jump of 2.5 or more preceded by one or more sustained edge glides on one or both feet, such as a spread eagle, ina bauer, hydroblade, back drag, or spiral (forward or backward)

3. One jump combination, in which one jump must have at least 2.5 revolutions and the other must have at least 2 revolutions

One of the jumps must be an axel takeoff, and no jump may be repeated (same takeoff and same number of revolutions) except in the combination both jumps may be the same.

That'll get you more triple axel combinations than we see from the men today, but it will also allow the option of triple flip or lutz, or quad toe or salchow, in the combination and solo triple axel preceded by steps or glides.

Are we ready to allow the men to do two quads in the SP if they can do two different ones? There are probably a handful of guys who are capable of doing so, but even fewer would actually choose to risk it. Are we ready to allow ladies to fill the axel requirement with a solo triple axel? As I mentioned for the men, it's a safer way to include in the short program than requiring it to be in the combination. But again, fewer than a handful have the ability at this time.

Would we want to limit repeating takeoffs even with different numbers of revolutions?

It's legal under the above rules to do double axel-triple toe combo, solo triple axel, and solo quad toe.

 

[gsrossano]

^^^
Because it's all about points. Judges will come down heavy if those jumps are not executed propely. They are not looking for anything artistic. It's just how well the elements are performed. That's the story of the Short.

True about marking the jumps down if they are not done right. I don't worry too much if the three jumps are one after the other if it fits the music. I don't think everybody does that though. At worlds I noticed one skater did three jumps in a row, then three spins in a row then the two sequences in a row. That did bother me enough that I would have marked CH down, and also IN since it turned out the arrangement IMO did not work with the music.

I certainly am looking for good components (artistic) in the SP, and kill performances that do not have have transitions, choreography, interp, etc. -- and I think most judges are also.

Skaters who neglect the artistic components in the SP are making a huge strategic error.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Requiring the axel to be in combination means that you would see a narrower range of jump combinations than you do now.

I thought you wanted more variety, not less.

I'm certainly in favor of extra variety in the LP. The SP is 8 required elements, after all.

I would rather see the majority of men trying a more difficult combination in the SP. The 3Axel-3Toe became an iconic move in Men's figure skating in the 90's and we've lost it under CoP. You don't get any extra credit for doing it in your LP. That's something which should be changed (combinations should receive bonus credit depending on how difficult the combination was) but I would sort of also like to see the move back in the SP.

Changing the SP jumps is not a huge deal to me, though. It's a bit more experimental and there are certainly way more pressing matters to fix with CoP. This thread was more about how annoying it is to see skaters do all 3 jumping passes in a row in the SP and not get dinged for it by the judges.

Are we ready to allow the men to do two quads in the SP if they can do two different ones? There are probably a handful of guys who are capable of doing so, but even fewer would actually choose to risk it. Are we ready to allow ladies to fill the axel requirement with a solo triple axel?

Two Quads in the SP should be allowed for the Men, if it's with these rules. They have to do each of the quads out of another move, which makes them much more difficult. If someone can actually do that in competition they should be rewarded for it. We never see Quads out of any kind of transition move.

As for the Ladies, I think the rules right now are just fine. If they want to do a 3Axel they can do it as their solo Triple out of steps.

 

[gsrossano]

For no other reason than to stir the pot on a lazy afternoon I would throw out the question, for what practical purpose does the SP need to be made more difficult?

If the purpose of competition is to sort out the best skaters from the worst, how do the current requirements fail to do that? It's not like the top skaters are coming out of the SP all tied.

Is it to make it harder just for the sake of making it harder? Maybe to put in more quads so Joubert has a better chance of winning against all the guys who can beat him without quads?

Isn't skating already enough of a jumping contest?

Just wondering.

 

[Wrlmy]

I don't know the suggested jump layout will give that much advantage to Joubert. How many men can land a quad out of step or difficult entry? The reason I would oppose to op's suggestion is that it would discourage quad instead of encouraging it.

 

[gkelly]

In the 1998-99 and 1999-2000 seasons, senior men were allowed to do a quad as the solo jump but not in the combination. Among those who tried, very few had any appreciable steps or other moves preceding the quad. In theory they should have received a deduction on that element, but in practice it was often hard to see that the deduction was taken.

If this were to be the case in IJS, we'd probably see GOEs of 0 or +1 for good quads without preceding steps that might otherwise earn +2. And the good ones with preceding steps would earn +2s. Hopefully +3 if they were big and clean and the preceding moves were difficult and/or intricate into the jump. IF anyone could do it, and IF the judges on the panel were not inclined to be stingy on principle about +3s.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

True about marking the jumps down if they are not done right. I don't worry too much if the three jumps are one after the other if it fits the music. I don't think everybody does that though. At worlds I noticed one skater did three jumps in a row, then three spins in a row then the two sequences in a row. That did bother me enough that I would have marked CH down, and also IN since it turned out the arrangement IMO did not work with the music.

I certainly am looking for good components (artistic) in the SP, and kill performances that do not have have transitions, choreography, interp, etc. -- and I think most judges are also.

Skaters who neglect the artistic components in the SP are making a huge strategic error.

I've seen the best of the Men circle half the arena to make their 3 required jumps interspersed with lots of cross overs.
.
The Ladies usually save their dbl axel for later. Making that segment of the competition in an artistic fashion is extremeley difficut if not impossible, and the poor skaters know what happens if they screw up an element. I think nerves play more of a roll here than in the LP.

Only a Lori Nichol can lay out an artistic SP program, imo. It's more of a problem for the choreographer with the coach hovering over it to ensure that the three jumps will be easy to do.

 

[LimeZest]

What I miss: Quad out of steps in the sp.
What I'm tired of seeing: Double axel right after spiral sequence.

 

[Blades of Passion]

For no other reason than to stir the pot on a lazy afternoon I would throw out the question, for what practical purpose does the SP need to be made more difficult?

Well, the rule wouldn't actually force the skaters to make their SPs more difficut. They can opt to do a 3Axel-2Toe (or 2Axel-3Toe) instead of a 3Axel-3Toe. It's not worth as much points but that's what happens when you do less. Just as everyone who doesn't currently do a Quad in the SP is (potentially) getting less points.

 

[gsrossano]

I've seen the best of the Men circle half the arena to make their 3 required jumps interspersed with lots of cross overs.

So? If they do I know plenty of judges who will go down in the PCs for it, esp TR. If other judges chose not to, not my problem.
.

Making that segment of the competition in an artistic fashion is extremeley difficut if not impossible ....

Nope, don't agree at all.

Only a Lori Nichol can lay out an artistic SP program, imo.

Nope, don't agree with that even more.

My jaundiced view currently is that if the SPs are weak in presentation it has more to do with lack of talent from the skater and the choreogprapher than any limitations created by the event requirements or IJS (though those two things do make it a bit of a challenge).

 

[Mathman]

My jaundiced view currently is that if the SPs are weak in presentation it has more to do with lack of talent from the skater and the choreogprapher than any limitations created by the event requirements or IJS (though those two things do make it a bit of a challenge).

What is your opinion about the long program in this regard?

I have come to enjoy short programs much more than long programs. For one thing they are short. LP's tend to tax my attention span.

In long programs, with 8 demanding jumping passes and a couple of exhausting footwork sequences, the skaters do not seem to have any time or energy left over for choreography and interpretation.

In the olden days at least there was a slow part (called the "slow part" if I remember my skating jargon), where the skater could do some pretty poses and rest up for the next section.

Under the IJS system there does not seem to be any time to waste like that any more.

 

[gsrossano]

Almost every skater these days does their 3 SP jumping passes right in row.

Was curious if this was true.

At Worlds for the Ladies SP 25 of 53 had three jump elements in a row -- less than 50%. In the Men's SP 32 of 50 had three jump elements in a row -- not quite 2/3. Overall 55% of singles had three jump elements in a row. To me that's not "almost every" that's "about half."

Another thing I notice. It is more common for the lower ladies to have three in a row than the top ladies. For the men it is slightly more common for the top men to have three in a row compared to the bottom men.

Maybe since the men do more difficult jumps, they feel it is best to get all three out of the way while they are fresh?

What is your opinion about the long program in this regard?

If a skater wants PC points, it is clearly more difficult to choreograph the SP than the LP, since you have 8 elements in 2:50 compared to 12-13 elements in 4:10 or 4:40. But it is not impossible. At Nationals I did a little private survey of elite coaches and choreographers about whether they felt IJS tied their hands in trying to produce an "artistic" program. The majority said yes and some said no.

Clearly IJS does tie up the choreographer some, but my again jaundiced view is that too many coaches spent more time complaining about what IJS prevents them from doing and not enough time figuring out how to put into a program what IJS allows them to do. I will be more sympathetic to the "IJS makes this so difficult" complaints when coaches start filling the obvious holes in programs that can easily be filled.

But back to the SP. Because of the time constraint you see a lot of back to back elements to allow more time between other elements for interpretations. Some programs now have 3-4 elements that feed one into the other. But then when they do that you often see that the added time elsewhere is wasted. You also see time consuming sequences where little effort is made to use those elements to express the program. That's a failure of the skater and coach IMO and not the fault of IJS.

The amount of time between elements is greater in the FS, but I can't say that is is more effectively used. And certainly 4+ minutes of a boring program is far more excruciating than a boring SP. In any case, since there are now enough skaters and coaches (though a handful) who have shown they have figured out how to make an artistic SP and FS, I have come to feel if the majority of programs are not interesting or artistic, the fault lies more with the skaters and their coaches than IJS.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Thanks for looking up that statistic, gsrossano.

55% is still a very high number compared what the SP used to be like. You almost never saw such a thing in the past.

It's very poor program construction and the judges need to crack down on it.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

My jaundiced view currently is that if the SPs are weak in presentation it has more to do with lack of talent from the skater and the choreogprapher than any limitations created by the event requirements or IJS (though those two things do make it a bit of a challenge).

We'll agree to disagree on presentation in the SP. I still contend that top skaters do not show much elan in the SP. The Men, in particular are focused on making those 3 jumps and circling half the ice floor with crossovers helps them. Joubert's 007 is the exception. We could cite Cohen's Malaguena and Dark Eyes SPs which did have good presentation as well as Kwan's Nichols SPs, but they are far from the norm.

I think good SPs are scored generously on clean programs - not on anything special. I also think we are discussing opinions here and not anything substantive. As you say, the purpose of the SP is to separate the skaters for more concentration of the LP. So why worry about artistry in the SP?

 

[gkelly]

Thanks for looking up that statistic, gsrossano.

55% is still a very high number compared what the SP used to be like. You almost never saw such a thing in the past.

When in the past?

Keep in mind that up to 1994, ladies' short programs were required to do a double jump out of preceding moves. Up to I think 2000 they were still allowed to. Naturally it's a lot easier to put a double late in the program than a triple.

Keep in mind that up to 1998, men's short programs were required to include a double axel. It's a lot easier to save for late in the program than a triple axel.

Compare only to the 2001-2004 period, when the SP jump requirements were the same as they are now but the judging system was still in place?

I'll see if I can find notes (or watch videos and take notes) from Worlds from one of those years.

Are you more interested in men than in women?

 

[gsrossano]

Just another random observation.

In the Men's FS, it is pretty common to put 4-5 jump elements (triple jumps), of the 8 jump elements, in the second half, after 2:15, which is getting near the end of a 2:50 SP.

So does that tell us if the Men wanted to put one of the three SP jumps towards the end of the SP, they should be able to handle it? Is putting three first thing in the program just a security blanket?

 

[Mathman]

In the Men's SP 32 of 50 had three jump elements in a row -- not quite 2/3.

In the men's LP, 23 out of 24 (96%) opened their programs with three jumps in a row. Only Abbott snuck a spin in there between his first four jumps. Verner, Voronov, Domanski and Kovoevsku did 4.

After the half-way mark, 12 of 24 men did at least 3 in a row as the first three elements in the bonus period. Three did 4, and four did 5.

Oda, Fernandez and Macypura did three jumps as their first three elements and then five jumps as the first five elements of the second half. Verner did four and four.

From this perspective, It seems like a men's long program is just two short programs stuck back to back.

If a skater wants PC points, it is clearly more difficult to choreograph the SP than the LP, since you have 8 elements in 2:50 compared to 12-13 elements in 4:10 or 4:40.

As an amateur observer, that does not seem so clear to me. In a successful program the highlight elements are part of the choreography. I don't think choreography just refers to what you do when you are not doing something else.

I could imagine, for instance, a man skating to Also Sprach Zarathustra who did nothing for the first ten bars but set up for a monster 'tano quad. (ALSO! -- 10.0 for Interpretation!)

The amount of time between elements is greater in the FS, but I can't say that is is more effectively used. And certainly 4+ minutes of a boring program is far more excruciating than a boring SP.

And yet this is not reflected in the marks for Presentation/Execution.

At Worlds, Yu-na Kim gave (IMHO) the most thrilling ladies short progam ever. She got 8.50 in P/E and deserved every hudredth of a point.

In the LP -- it was an OK performance -- she got 8.70. :scratch: