Changing The Image Of Men's Figure Skating

[merrybari]

Evan ditched his uber-sparkly LP costume, but he kept his SP costume which had a big, red, sparkly cross on the front.

Personally, I liked the sparkly red cross. IMO, the costume would not have been as visually appealing without it.

Right you are. He kept the one that worked and replaced the one that didn't.

I too liked the SP costume, sparkles and all. I found it very commanding and dramatic to fit the music. So suitable in fact, that the sparkle became a non-issue one way or the other for me.

So, taking that a step further, sparkle can make a strong statement depending on how it's used.

 

[Tonichelle]

further proof that Alaska is not part of the US - Soccer is more popular as a school and summer sport than football (or baseball)... Hockey is pretty big now that the Aces are winning things... but for organized team sports Soccer isn't considered girly or overly macho, just a sport that a lot of our teens and college students excell at.

 

[janetfan]

I think there is a reason why "soccer" is sometimes thought of as a girls’ sport in the U.S.

Historically, for whatever reason, soccer was not played in the U.S. at all. No special reason, it just turned out that way. Lacrosse and cricket were not popular either.
That’s why U.S. women now play at the championship level – the men, not so much. As far as I know the 1999 women’s world cup finals was the only soccer game ever shown on prime time network television in the U.S. Mia Hamm was the most popular female athlete in the country (beating out Michelle Kwan for top honors that year.)

Good post mm. BTW, if I was misunderstood before - I watch as much football on satellite from Europe and So. America as time permits. I played for my high school team and thought about playing for my university's team but just didn't have the time.
Nonetheless, football/soccer has had the image in USA and probably Canada too of being less than a macho sport. Silly and ridiculous - but cultural differences do exist. But progress is being made and has anyone noticed how well Landon Donavan has learned to take fake dives and act like he is hurt after even the lightest contact? His time in Germany was well spent after all. :yes:
In European sporting culture that is known as "playing the system" - in North America it is still thought of as a form of cheating. Another example of those those pesty "cultural" differences.

 

[Medusa]

In European sporting culture that is known as "playing the system" - in North America it is still thought of as a form of cheating. Another example of those those pesty "cultural" differences.

Who told you that it is seen as "playing the system" here? Diving is frowned upon, as is playing for time. The audience reacts badly, has sometimes a really long memory (Christiano Ronaldo suffered a long time for diving against England in 2006), I have never heard a commentator (be it from the Netherlands, Belgium, France, Italy, Spain, Great Britain, Germany) do anything but criticising diving and overly sensitive behaviour from the players. And repeat offenders are not popular among fans and are often ridiculed.

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

For what it's worth, more kids (whether boys or girls) play soccer in Canada than play hockey, and you know what we Canadians think of hockey (the most watched event in Canadian television history was the gold medal match at the 2002 Olympics).

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Pink is for girls and Blue is for boys. Isn't this what it is all about?

but along comes puberty and things begin to show much more differences between males and females.

I believe the use of glitter in a boy's costume shows the need for attention. The insecurity in his abilities to do his best on the ice in front of the audience and judges demands something to take away the mental anguish of having those judges and thousands of fans staring at him all alone. That something would be glitter to make him feel like a celebrity. Does it work? Maybe, sometimes.

Personally, I do not think male skaters need the glitter. If I picture Tiger Woods in a LaCoste of Rhinestones and Roger Federer in a jewled sweat ban - oh no, I can't do that. Then there is that Austrailian Diver who simply wears bathing trunks like all of his competitors. They have IT, and IT is Self Secureness.

Glitter go way from the Sport and Come back to the Galas.

 

[Tonichelle]

...as is playing for time.

"running the clock" is a strategy that is used in a lot of sports over here... American Football especially.

 

[janetfan]

I dimly remember you already posted on the issue of cheating as being inherent to European sporting culture and I would have liked you to elaborate on this at that time but the post was gone shortly after or I did not find it again...

Anyhow, I wonder how the perception of the European and it's own sporting culture works in North America. It sounds like North America has a British Gentlemen sporting culture as opposed to a European one full of cheating and unfairness...
I think people in all sports in all countries will try to use the rules to their advantage.
Can't say I'm too fond of diving in soccer, either. Jurgen Klinsmann comes to mind, who played in England and quickly got himself a reputation for going down too quickly and too dramatic.

I think American sporting culture definitely has it's roots in the British ideal of fair play. That said, I agree that we are far from perfect and it seems the more important money becomes in sports the more likely we or any other culture will look for ways to win.
The situation in baseball - our former "national pastime" has become so scandal ridden by excessive steroid use that many refuse to follow it anymore. I am one of those people. If American baseball won't impose stricter drug testing and punishment as European football has done then I can't be bothered watching.
Italy is interesting in that they have some of the strictest anti-drug laws in the sporting world. Yet their football is as scandal ridden as any in So. America and they have turned match fixing along with diving and shirt pulling into an artform. Such a contradiction!
I hope European posters will realize that here in USA we hear about shortcomings of other sporting cultures more than our own. I am always interested in hearing views from across the pond as to how we and our sporting culture are perceived.
Nobody likes to hear that they are cheaters - and I don't think that Americans or Brits are incapable of such behavior . It is true that North Americans talk and complain more about skating scandals. You hear some of our broadcasts and when we hear comments from Button, Hamilton, Bezic, and others telling us there is cheating going on what are we supposed to think and believe?
I remember Scott Hamilton declaring Nancy Kerrigan had realized her Olympic dream and won the Gold medal before the competition was over. When the largest American audience ever to watch a skating event saw the scores, then the replays of Oksana so far from a clean skate that night many decided this sport was rigged and not worth watching. Was it Scott's fault? Perhaps - but to millions of casual skating fans the perception was - and remains - that Nancy was cheated out of the OGM by biased European judging. I always liked Oksana more than Nancy - but I thought Nancy skated better that night. Maybe I am wrong - but millions of casual American viewers were told and then shown on replay how "Kerrigan was perfect" and Oksana "only had two clean triple jumps."
I don't mean to rant - just trying to explain to Europeans why this attitude about "cheating and fair play is so deeply a part of our skating and sporting experience.
Salt Lake City was the final blow for many American skating fans and who can blame them?
This post may have been off topic - but I believe gender issues have less to do with the fall of skating popualrity in USA than the perceived lack of fairness in the judging.

 

[Tonichelle]

Scott himself came out and said in his book that he was pressured to take Nancy's side by CBS - as far as calling it bad/cheating judging. And that he was sorry he did it (he phoned that night in pretty much anyway because of his father's passing)

in 2002 Scott blurted out some stupid stuff and came back that same week and apologised for letting personal bias get in the way of the broadcast.

 

[Medusa]

Scott himself came out and said in his book that he was pressured to take Nancy's side by CBS - as far as calling it bad/cheating judging. And that he was sorry he did it (he phoned that night in pretty much anyway because of his father's passing)

in 2002 Scott blurted out some stupid stuff and came back that same week and apologised for letting personal bias get in the way of the broadcast.

Whoaa, I didn't know that! Probably a good thing that the major figure skating broadcaster in Europe is international, maybe that's why the British commentators are so well liked. They can really say what they think.

 

[Tonichelle]

all of the "free" networks have a strong US bias in sports... I mean NBC stands for National Broadcasting Channel... it doesn't surprise me... CBS was bad enough in 94, but NBC is worse.

Scott seemed to have learned -a bit- from that experience as he apologised in 2002 for the Pairs crap, in an interview with Bob Costas, Costas kept trying to turn the statement around to make it still seem that Scott believed that the Russians were cheating. Scott stood by his statement but also acknowledged that there have been questionable judging decisions, but that it's part of any subjective sport. No one seems to remember this part of the story though lol

 

[janetfan]

Scott himself came out and said in his book that he was pressured to take Nancy's side by CBS - as far as calling it bad/cheating judging. And that he was sorry he did it (he phoned that night in pretty much anyway because of his father's passing)

in 2002 Scott blurted out some stupid stuff and came back that same week and apologised for letting personal bias get in the way of the broadcast.

Thanks for that info Toni. Rather than trying to place "blame" on Scott - my intent was to explain that perception of most skating fans here is not so much based on nationalistic feelings - but more on how it has been reported to us at times.
I was a big fan of Oksana and was never bothered by the decision that night. I also remember that Oksana was generally treated with alot of respect and love from American fans when she skated with COI later that spring. I saw her in Philly and she was even better in person than what I saw on TV.

 

[jennylovskt]

Skating has been shown here in USA on "Lifetime" and recently "Oxygen". Both are cable stations that cater to women's interests and issues.
But - are we supposed to forget that for years skating was shown on the very "macho" ESPN?
Did ESPN drop skating because of "gender issues" or did it have more to do with unreasonable financial demands?

I think it's obvious that ESPN droped off figure skating was because of the declining of the viewers, not because the TV station think that figure skating is too feminine.

Maybe Jenny would consider me a "feminine man" - or maybe Jenny is "culturally challenged." :yes:

janetfan, you are good at everything you do. I am not sure what you are talking about regarding to this sentence? If I understand you correctly, you are mistaken my views. I was the one who was against presumptions and crying for the sensitivity of the people who see a man with a soft voice, then assume that he is a gay.

You should totally get yourself a check-up. I keep telling my dad the same thing: loving music, art, dance, saying that he prefers silky lingerie over cotton lingerie (on women that is, not on himself - as far as I know), watching figure skating with your daughter and even sometimes wearing pink - all that sounds like a serious pathological case of non-manliness.

My dad loved music and art. He was good at photography and wrote nice poems. He loved to sing at home when he was happy and he used handkerchief (there was no kleenix in his time). My uncle was a self-taught violin player, a very good violin player actually. He made beautiful handcrafted tiny baskets and built a wooden keyboard for himself to learn piano. My mom was a national level basketball player and she loved everything - music, art, photography, and sports. In recent years, she has become an ardent soccer fan. What did that make?

And that people in NA consider soccer a cissy sport - hello, which country feels the need to turn their players into stuffed animals just because they want to play a round of Rugby?

I think in Asia, Europe, and South America, soccer is a sport as manly as it can be. Only in USA, not even in Canada, it considered a little girly.

further proof that Alaska is not part of the US - Soccer is more popular as a school and summer sport than football (or baseball)... Hockey is pretty big now that the Aces are winning things... but for organized team sports Soccer isn't considered girly or overly macho, just a sport that a lot of our teens and college students excell at.

Good, then join Canada. I don't think American football is as popular as soccer in Canada.

 

[janetfan]

First, thankyou for your very nice words.
The "Jenny" I was referring to is "Jennifer Kirk" who wrote in her blog about this topic. Sorry if you misunderstood -
and I thought seniorita is always so confused about my posts

 

[seniorita]

so have they ever reported in american commenting other cases like if some european was cheated from an american, or a japanse from a european, or an african from an Eskimo etc..it just seems strange to me that commentators speak so open about cheating on tv.

 

[Medusa]

Thanks for that info Toni. Rather than trying to place "blame" on Scott - my intent was to explain that perception of most skating fans here is not so much based on nationalistic feelings - but more on how it has been reported to us at times.

Can't you request other commentators then? This isn't of course a purely American problem, every time Domnina / Shabalin skate, the French reporters (skating is mostly broadcasted France 3 apart from Eurosport in France) make it sound as if those two would be barely Novice level in France.

I watched the CBC version of Ando's freeskate at Worlds a few days ago. And I found it infuriating. During the program the praise was sparse to begin with, but then after she didn't do any mistakes on the jumps, the commentators started talking how this program was inferior to Joannie's (despite the fact that Joannie had two obvious mistakes on her jumps). It was like they were telling the Canadian audience "Yes, our girl did obvious mistakes. And you might think that this Japanese was better because she looked clean - but we know better!" Rochette lost the freeskate to Ando, but stayed in first overall. Mostly because Ando's downgraded Triple Loop. But what if Ando had been in first? Did the commentators want to enrage the audience? Did they want the Canandian TV audience to scream "Foul! The Japanese got first place, but the commentators said that our girl was better despite the mistakes?"

In contrast to that: at Europeans Szolkowy crashed badly on the Triple Toeloop in the free program. After them Kavaguti / Smirnov skated a reasonably clean program but were placed behind Savchenko / Szolkowy. The German commentators said that despite the fact that the Germans have better skating skills, flow, speed and overall posture - it shouldn't be possible that a couple with an obvious crash in the program places above a couple that was clean. That's how people should be commentating: without bias or nationality in mind.

 

[janetfan]

so have they ever reported in american commenting other cases like if some european was cheated from an american, or a japanse from a european, or an african from an Eskimo etc..it just seems strange to me that commentators speak so open about cheating on tv.

I was wondering if European or Asian commentators make claims about cheating as part of their commentary? Certainly the Eurosport guys can't agree with every medal placement they have ever seen?

 

[seniorita]

Can't you request other commentators then?

shhh, does Mr Button reads this board?
From all the overseas commentators my fav is Terry Gannon, I didnt know his name for so long, but I found out from voting booth!

Oh they disagree a lot, but they say their opinion like "someone should have placed better" or his pcs are low etc, but without mentioning cheating or that kind of outrageous commenting/ words that cause a specific effect to the audience. Maybe they isolate the skater they speak from his nationality, so you dont connect someone's overscores with the country he represents.
Just listen eurosport commenting on Olympics 2006 or Worlds 2005 and the Nbc one, you ll get my point.
It is clear in my head how they speak and the difference i have seen, I dont know how to explain it though.Sorry

 

[jennylovskt]

First, thankyou for your very nice words.
The "Jenny" I was referring to is "Jennifer Kirk" who wrote in her blog about this topic. Sorry if you misunderstood -

Sorry, I forgot what was all about. I totally forgot about Jennifer Kirk.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

all of the "free" networks have a strong US bias in sports... I mean NBC stands for National Broadcasting Channel... it doesn't surprise me... CBS was bad enough in 94, but NBC is worse.

Scott seemed to have learned -a bit- from that experience as he apologised in 2002 for the Pairs crap, in an interview with Bob Costas, Costas kept trying to turn the statement around to make it still seem that Scott believed that the Russians were cheating. Scott stood by his statement but also acknowledged that there have been questionable judging decisions, but that it's part of any subjective sport. No one seems to remember this part of the story though lol

All this you got from Scott's book? If so, how did Costas retort?.

Subjective judging is part of any sport. Does that make it correct judging?