Is Rachael Flatt the (emotional) underdog?

[bekalc]

There was endless whining about Alissa's title last season from some of the same people who are down on those who prefer Mirai.

Some of these same posters made daily multi-post attacks against Sasha for months.

Now they don't like it when their girl is not the favorite of some here?

Different strokes,,,,,,,,,:
.

Sigh I was heavily against Alissa's "win" because I knew that this decision would cost us 3 spots for the Olympics. And while I don't know if I had mutliple posts here attacking Sasha, I wasn't a fan of her comeback either. And well yes I think Rachael deserved to win.

But I wouldn't call Rachael "my girl" I'm actually not a fan of her skating. I felt Rachael deserved to win and make the Olympic team based on her consistency. But I find her skating boring and flatt. As for the emotional underdog, no I don't think Rachael is that. For me the emotional under dog is someone like Kostner. Someone who is so incredibly talented but can't put it together. Mao may becoming an emotional underdog. To be frank I'm rooting for Kim, Kostner, Asada, Rochette, and Ando.

I actually think Aunt Judy though had it correct about Rachael. I think while its great that Rachael is such a good student and applying to Ivy league colleges, does it have to be mentioned every single interview, multiple times. I mean we didn't hear this all the time from Sarah way back then. And Emily is at Harvard right now, and that's mentioned less. Rachael seems to have a fun personality, but all they talk about is how she is a good student. Okay we know that. I mean Meissner was really liked because she showed other aspects to her personality and came accross as real.

 

[R.D.]

Before, I used to read here that she was among the happiest performers who truly loved skating, that that's why people loved watching her perform, and that she was very musical and interpreted the music so well.

I wonder where that reputation went.

Perhaps bad music choice this season?

I NEVER heard that about Rachel. Maybe in the "old days" before she emerged in the senior ranks.

She's OK skating-wise, nothing special, but her stunning consistency and ability to do well under pressure will keep her in contention in case others make mistakes. At Nationals she was able to capitalize on that, and although Nagasu also went clean, they got her for the URs so Flatt wins the title. The funny thing about this controversy, though is that Flatt was on the OTHER side of the coin last year, with people arguing she should have won over a lackluster freeskate by Czisny. So now what :chorus:

I also have to admit I'm getting a bit tired of hearing how smart she is and how many courses she's taking, what colleges she's applying to, yada yada. But I don't hold that against her (it's a good thing) but the press which seems to gobble up these kinds of stories.

Some say Flatt doesn't get emotionally involved but she seemed pretty ecstatic about getting 200 points in the freeskate. But when watching other performers or when she's caught in an off-moment she has this cold stare which I suppose can turn people off.

 

[bekalc]

I also have to admit I'm getting a bit tired of hearing how smart she is and how many courses she's taking, what colleges she's applying to, yada yada. But I don't hold that against her (it's a good thing) but the press which seems to gobble up these kinds of stories.

On Judy's Ice Cream Stand, he argued that it was Rachael's parents that want this mentioned every single time. If you look at the press conference, I think the press is actually a bit bored by it. This is no offense to Rachael its awesome she's such a good student, and I'm not saying it shouldn't be mentioned. But since its been mentioned over and over and over again, it would be nice if something else was focused on.

 

[janetfan]

ISome say Flatt doesn't get emotionally involved but she seemed pretty ecstatic about getting 200 points in the freeskate. But when watching other performers or when she's caught in an off-moment she has this cold stare which I suppose can turn people off.

I think Rachael's SP is very good and shows alot of expression that is perfectly suited to the music.

For me it falls under the category of "joyful skating."

Her LP requires a different interpretation just as Mao's "Bells" program does.

If Rachael can skate her SP cleanly in Vancouver I think she will be in position to make a run for a medal. Alot will depend on how the others skate - but isn't that always the case?

 

[R.D.]

I think Rachael's SP is very good and shows alot of expression that is perfectly suited to the music.

For me it falls under the category of "joyful skating."

Her LP requires a different interpretation just as Mao's "Bells" program does.

If Rachael can skate her SP cleanly in Vancouver I think she will be in position to make a run for a medal. Alot will depend on how the others skate - but isn't that always the case?

Flatt MUST depend on others above her making mistakes. Given that it's the Olympics, I say (almost) anything can happen.

 

[Tesla]

Sigh I was heavily against Alissa's "win" because I knew that this decision would cost us 3 spots for the Olympics. And while I don't know if I had mutliple posts here attacking Sasha, I wasn't a fan of her comeback either. And well yes I think Rachael deserved to win.

Alissa didn't cost the US 3 spots for the Olympics. Ashly, Kimmie, and Bebe did that in 2008.

 

[R.D.]

Alissa didn't cost the US 3 spots for the Olympics. Ashly, Kimmie, and Bebe did that in 2008.

Oh well, not much to do about that. But in that case, how ironic is it that it is Ashley that misses out on the Games due to us not having that third spot? After all, that year (2008) she was the one that placed the lowest of the three (16th IIRC?)

 

[Tesla]

Oh well, not much to do about that. But in that case, how ironic is it that it is Ashley that misses out on the Games due to us not having that third spot? After all, that year (2008) she was the one that placed the lowest of the three (16th IIRC?)

I know. I just get frustrated that Alissa gets the blame when it really wasn't her fault. It is ironic because didn't Ashley do really well that year and then bomb atrociously at Worlds?

 

[R.D.]

I wouldn't let Czisny off the hook though. She was TOTALLY capable of 8th place at Worlds had she just stood up in the SP. She was totally capable of helping Rachel get back 3 spots for the US. But it didn't happen.

That said, considering her competitive history we were probably asking way too much of her.

 

[Tesla]

I wouldn't let Czisny off the hook though. She was TOTALLY capable of 8th place at Worlds had she just stood up in the SP. She was totally capable of helping Rachel get back 3 spots for the US. But it didn't happen.

That said, considering her competitive history we were probably asking way too much of her.

Who knows? If there had been a third skater, maybe Alissa wouldn't have felt so much pressure and wouldn't have bombed.

 

[R.D.]

Who knows? If there had been a third skater, maybe Alissa wouldn't have felt so much pressure and wouldn't have bombed.

That's true also. The X-Factor at play.

I hardly think she would have been clean though. Didn't she also have a dismal finish in 2007, finishing the lowest of 3 US skaters? (I remember Meissner and Hughes BARELY squeaked out 3 spots, placing 4th and 9th)

 

[Tesla]

That's true also. The X-Factor at play.

I hardly think she would have been clean though. Didn't she also have a dismal finish in 2007, finishing the lowest of 3 US skaters? (I remember Meissner and Hughes BARELY squeaked out 3 spots, placing 4th and 9th)

Well, in 2007, Alissa had 49.43 and placed 18th in the short. In 2009, she had 53.28 and placed 14th in the short. 2007 was also her first Worlds. If she had had a third skater, she might have done better. In 2007, she beat Emily in the free. Emily almost lost the three spots then. She's lucky she squeaked by Joannie. I just hate to see all the blame placed on Alissa.

 

[bekalc]

Alissa didn't cost the US 3 spots for the Olympics. Ashly, Kimmie, and Bebe did that in 2008.

But Alissa's poor performance made it impossible for us to earn three spots back. I think everyone knew that it would be very difficult for Kimmie, Bebe and Ashley to get us three spots.

But Zhang/Flatt would have been able to oujump enough people to make it happen. The Usfsa judged both Caroline and Rachael they way they would be judged internationally. While giving Alissa way higher scores than she'd ever get internationally. Based on all three performances it was very clear who would be more likely to perform better than international judges. Alissa was judged fairly in the short but in the long, it was frankly ridiculous. She got higher PCS scores in the long than she did in the short!

Its not about blaming Alissa because I don't blame her. She's never been a great competitor. She even showed that at 2009 free program. It didn't take a rocket science to see that the added pressure of earning 3 spots would make it difficult for Alissa.

In the end who I blame is the USFSA judges because they should have realized that our best option was to send our most consistent/head on straight skaters to worlds.

So yes the USFSA judges inflating Alissa's scores cost us our best shot at earning 3 spots. A way better shot than we had last year too. I don't know how any reasonable person could argue differently. And to blame Meissner when she was clearly struggling that year and had also been instrumental in getting us 3 spots for 2 years previously is more than a bit much. And besides Meissner's showing at Worlds that year combined with Flatt's would have done it.

But in the end its not about blaming Alissa but blaming the judges. In fact I think Flatt/Zhang last year was a better shot than Flatt/Nagasu this year in the 3 spots category.

 

[janetfan]

Oh well, not much to do about that. But in that case, how ironic is it that it is Ashley that misses out on the Games due to us not having that third spot? After all, that year (2008) she was the one that placed the lowest of the three (16th IIRC?)

Isn't it about time we stop blaming Alissa for what Kimmie, Bebe and Ashley gave up?

I am also confused about having the three skaters being made into a matter close to life and death.

Japan has three skaters because they eaned it and deserve it. We have two which seems fair whether we like it or not.

This season Rachael and Mirai will have a chance to get back the third spot. If they don't I will not crucify them because I am sure they will try their best.

When our Ladies are good enough to warrant three places then we will have three. As far as the Olympics goes i think it makes no difference other than from the point of a fan seeing his favorite there.

 

[R.D.]

Isn't it about time we stop blaming Alissa for what Kimmie, Bebe and Ashley gave up?

I wouldn't blame Alyssa alone for that, but at the same time I don't think she's completely innocent, either.

As far as the Olympics goes i think it makes no difference other than from the point of a fan seeing his favorite there.

In this particular case, perhaps, since Wagner is no more a threat for a medal than Nagasu, and certainly not Flatt. But I won't lie, it would have been nice to have her go as well, and have the Oly team be the three of them. Oh well, if Nagasu/Flatt can get back three spots for 2011 maybe it can be the three of them at Worlds next year

 

[bekalc]

When our Ladies are good enough to warrant three places then we will have three. As far as the Olympics goes i think it makes no difference other than from the point of a fan seeing his favorite there.

Flatt and Zhang were good enough to earn 3 spots for the US that year. I'm not angry at Ashley/Kimmie/Bebe because that was the best team we could have sent and they werent' good enough.

If Alissa/Flatt were the best team we could have sent, than I would have accepted the outcome. Heck if Alissa had skated well in the free program, than I would have accepted Alissa/Flatt as the team. But the reason I and many people are angry is because Alissa bombed the free program at Nationals with only three credited jumps and really some of those would have perhaps been downgraded by international panels. But she was given way higher scores than she'd get from an international podium, in order to ensure she won and stayed on the team.

So in the end, this is not about Alissa or being angry at Alissa. It is about being angry at the judging at US Nationals which led to us not sending our best possible team to worlds.

 

[Mrs. P]

I actually think Aunt Judy though had it correct about Rachael. I think while its great that Rachael is such a good student and applying to Ivy league colleges, does it have to be mentioned every single interview, multiple times. I mean we didn't hear this all the time from Sarah way back then. And Emily is at Harvard right now, and that's mentioned less. Rachael seems to have a fun personality, but all they talk about is how she is a good student. Okay we know that. I mean Meissner was really liked because she showed other aspects to her personality and came accross as real.

Actually reading Aunt Joyce's blog was part of inspiration to start some discussion on this topic. I don't always agree with her, but she does manage to write things that make a lot of sense and provides fodder for thought.

It's clear that some people don't like a story like Rachael's -- always successful in everything she does, albeit not in the most exciting fashion. About 95 percent of the viewing audience can't really relate to that. But what they can relate to is Mirai's "evil Mirai vs. good Mirai" struggles, attempt to rise above a less-than-ideal season in 2009, etc.

Isn't it about time we stop blaming Alissa for what Kimmie, Bebe and Ashley gave up?
I am also confused about having the three skaters being made into a matter close to life and death.
Japan has three skaters because they eaned it and deserve it. We have two which seems fair whether we like it or not.
This season Rachael and Mirai will have a chance to get back the third spot. If they don't I will not crucify them because I am sure they will try their best.
When our Ladies are good enough to warrant three places then we will have three. As far as the Olympics goes i think it makes no difference other than from the point of a fan seeing his favorite there.

ITA

Let's look back at 1993 Worlds, the last time the U.S. only qualified for 2 Olympic spots. Talk about dismal. Tonia K couldn't even qualify to compete in the long program (she was 38th), Lisa Ervin was 13th, so already no way that the U.S. could have two spots. But even the fave, Nancy Kerrigan fell to fifth after a bad LP. So it's one of those things where the chips fell where they did. Could this all changed if Tonya got on the team? Don't know.

Likewise there's no way of knowing whether the Flatt/Zhang or Flatt/Wagner would have fared better in getting the Oly spots.

 

[Tesla]

Likewise there's no way of knowing whether the Flatt/Zhang or Flatt/Wagner would have fared better in getting the Oly spots.

Exactly. Wagner bombed 2008 Worlds, and we have no idea how Zhang would have fared. Zhang could've bombed too since it would have been her first Worlds. I remember people being panicked last year that the US would lost a spot for Worlds. I knew that wasn't going to happen because you really have to work at losing the second spot.

 

[bekalc]

It's clear that some people don't like a story like Rachael's -- always successful in everything she does, albeit not in the most exciting fashion. About 95 percent of the viewing audience can't really relate to that. But what they can relate to is Mirai's "evil Mirai vs. good Mirai" struggles, attempt to rise above a less-than-ideal season in 2009, etc.

All of these girls are pretty darn successful even if they struggle a bit. The thing is I doubt Rachael is the only skater who is a good student. I really think the main thing is that people might want to see more of Rachael's personality. She seems to be a cute girl/very bubbly. But instead of showing the viewers this side of her personality, they instead insist on talking about her school/Ap classes-all the time.

 

[Layfan]

Flatt and Zhang were good enough to earn 3 spots for the US that year. I'm not angry at Ashley/Kimmie/Bebe because that was the best team we could have sent and they werent' good enough.

If Alissa/Flatt were the best team we could have sent, than I would have accepted the outcome. Heck if Alissa had skated well in the free program, than I would have accepted Alissa/Flatt as the team. But the reason I and many people are angry is because Alissa bombed the free program at Nationals with only three credited jumps and really some of those would have perhaps been downgraded by international panels. But she was given way higher scores than she'd get from an international podium, in order to ensure she won and stayed on the team.

So in the end, this is not about Alissa or being angry at Alissa. It is about being angry at the judging at US Nationals which led to us not sending our best possible team to worlds.

So one year later, people are still questioning Alissa's victory over Rachael because Alissa had obvious mistakes in her LP.
I don't blame them for that and I don't think they are doing it because they "hate" Alissa but because they honestly thought Alissa lost.
By the same token, I don't think anyone can be blamed for being confused at Rachael's victory over Mirai when Mirai had no visible mistakes. It's not that I think Rachael skated badly. I thought she skated very well. It's just that for me the flaws in her skating were more obvious than the flaws in Mirai's.
I know the judges and the system thought otherwise. But a lot of people disagreed with the judges and the system when Alissa won. If it's fair game to discuss that, it's fair game to discuss Rachael's victory too.

"It's clear that some people don't like a story like Rachael's -- always successful in everything she does, albeit not in the most exciting fashion. About 95 percent of the viewing audience can't really relate to that. But what they can relate to is Mirai's "evil Mirai vs. good Mirai" struggles, attempt to rise above a less-than-ideal season in 2009, etc."


I dunno. For me at least, this thas zero to do with why I questioned Mirai's second place finish. I liked Aunt Joyce's story but I kinda thought the bit about Rachael's AP classes was the weakest point in it. Rachael shouldn't try to pretend she's someone else, especially since the person that she is is obviously pretty great.