Hersh: Nagasu not on par with Flatt? HUH?

[Joesitz (RIP)]

CoP is more than just math, it doesn't help if the said person doesn't actually understand and is able, for instance, to catch UR when watching.

Anyone who claims CoP is responsible for the decline of this sport - please explain to me why has it been so difficult to get an Olympic ticket to any of the figure skating events, even the Compulsory Dance?

Top Sentence: Have you noticed that the sport in the US has declined dramatically. The spectators go home puzzled.

BottomSentence: There is a ritual in going to the Olys. One has choices on what to see. Standing out watching the Biathlon and the Downhill Races is frought with freezing and sometimes snowy weather. So, hey guys, let's get a ticket to the figure skating event where we can get in doors and bull#@$%, have a few beers and there are lots of ladies in that arena. Figure Skating and Ice Hockey keep you warm.

Now Worlds is another matter. I can agree with you on this but with that convoluted scoring system it's not worth learning for most spectators and hence if you've seen one FS event, you've seen em all. Been there, done that, leave confused, why more?

 

[PolymerBob]

It really is difficult for an audience to get into a sport where they don't know who won until the geeks with pocket protectors and slow motion cameras punch it into their calculators. We all remember Yukari's standing ovation at the 2008 Worlds. The announcers were debating whether she would get gold or silver.

Of course, this discussion becomes meaningless in the unlikely event a savior spirals out of nowhere and saves the sport. ( Hey, it could happen. )

 

[Mathman]

It really is difficult for an audience to get into a sport where they don't know who won until the geeks with pocket protectors and slow motion cameras punch it into their calculators.

Forget all my rambling posts on this thread, just replace them with what PolymerBob said. :yes:

 

[janetfan]

Mathman's essential point is correct, though. If the audience doesn't get what they pay for - a clear winner that they adore - they're gonna be disappointed and they leave. Of course, I think blaming COP for that is wrongheaded. But I think the basic fact that we don't think the audience needs to be informed is something that will frustrate me to no end, however. It was presented as a performance-based-entertainment for so long that actually asking audiences to judge it as a sport, you know - with rules.

In the past skating was often criticized for being too elitist.

This attitude that the fans don't need to know how winners are determined feels like a big mistake. Skating is still controlled by the very elitist ISU and they seem to want the fans to be on a "need to know" basis.

SLC exposed what many of us knew had been going on for years. The same gang that permitted it - and profited from it are still in charge. Make no mistake about it - this is a very elitist group of people.

IOC ordered changes after SLC. So what we got was a new system that hides how the judges are voting. We then are told even the judges are incapable of scoring properly and a panel under the exclusive control of ISU determines which skaters meet their approval. Elitism in it's purest form.

An organization that values honesty and integrity does not hide behind anonymous marks and a panel with the power to determine the outcome at their whim without being held accountable.

Fans at times invest as much time and passion as they get back from a sport or leisure activity.
The casual fans have lost interest but without doubt the elitists can afford $3,000.00 for a ticket along with the travel costs to watch an Olympic skating event.

Is it any wonder skating is in decline in N. America? There are not enough viewers left in Canada or USA to provide the TV ratings necessary to attract commercial sponsors. That part is simple business.
How skating got to that point is not so simple or cut and dry. But by making skating even more elitist ISU should have been aware that it would lose a major chunk of it's casual fans.

Personally I think ISU doesn't have the 'bells" to post Mirai's dg's along with her score for the fans to see. Booing and hissing has never been tolerated by the elitists.

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

Yeah, because booing and hissing has never happened under COP - see Johnny Wier, the young British dance couple

So what we got was a new system that hides how the judges are voting. We then are told even the judges are incapable of scoring properly and a panel under the exclusive control of ISU determines which skaters meet their approval. Elitism in it's purest form.

They post the rules. They post the protocols. You see what judges do. You see the individual scores and the weighted scores. You see the automatic deductions. You see a step by step computation of scoring. This is not elitism.

How many people say that the scoring system is too complicated? How many people have suggested that separate panels be designed to weigh PCS from TES. This isn't elitism. It's recognition of human imperfections. It's a good idea to have a panel designated solely to decide the difficulty of an element. A number of sports do this - we saw Moguls doing it at the Olympics, as an example. Is it too much power in the hands of three people? If it is, how many technical controllers should there be? None - leave it to the judges discretion? Nine? What would be appropriate.

It's not elitism to hide who's scoring who what way. It gives the appearance of malfeasance, which gives credence to the "wuzrobbed" cries, but make no mistake, 90% of those cries have nothing to do with the judging system and everything to do with "my favourite didn't win/place higher, therefore something was wrong with the system."

An organization that values honesty and integrity does not hide behind anonymous marks and a panel with the power to determine the outcome at their whim without being held accountable.

Can you explain your latter comment. Because if you continue that line of thought, it's worth mentioning that the technical panel worked against Virtue/Moir at the Olympics (they had a lower base value for both their OD and FD) but made it up from the judges in terms of GOE and PCS. You said "determine the outcome at their whim" but you've also said that the "placements seem right' elsewhere. These two thoughts don't jive with each other, unless you believe their whims and your beliefs match; if so, I'd suggest the problem with audiences is bigger than I though.

Fans at times invest as much time and passion as they get back from a sport or leisure activity.
The casual fans have lost interest but without doubt the elitists can afford $3,000.00 for a ticket along with the travel costs to watch an Olympic skating event.

Agreed.

Is it any wonder skating is in decline in N. America? There are not enough viewers left in Canada or USA to provide the TV ratings necessary to attract commercial sponsors. That part is simple business.
How skating got to that point is not so simple or cut and dry. But by making skating even more elitist ISU should have been aware that it would lose a major chunk of it's casual fans.

True.

Personally I think ISU doesn't have the 'bells" to post Mirai's dg's along with her score for the fans to see. Booing and hissing has never been tolerated by the elitists.

Yeah, cause fans never booed the scores Davis/White got in LA. Or Johnny Wier at the Olympics. Or the young British dance couple at the Olympics. I'm not really sure what your point is.

 

[Tonichelle]

it seems to me the booing and hissing would disprove the statements that the CoP makes it so you can't be emotionally invested in the moment of skating. if that were the case, no one would get upset or excited with the scores.


and the scores/outcome was booed in the arena during the mens event, nationals 2008 when Evan won over Johnny after they tied.

 

[Mathman]

I think there is a misconception about what the problem is. Wuzrobbing, booing the umpire, getting mad because my favorite skater didn't win -- that does not lessen the popularity of the sport.

The problem is this. Under ordinal judging the spectator can go away saying, oh those stupid judges, even a blind person can see that Weir outskated Lysacek!

Under the CoP, the message from the skating establishment is, oh you stupid spectator, you don't know a Salchow from a flip, just shut up and we will tell you who skated well and who didn't.

 

[PolymerBob]

They post the rules. They post the protocols. You see what judges do. You see the individual scores and the weighted scores. You see the automatic deductions. You see a step by step computation of scoring. This is not elitism.

This is all true. The problem is the audience doesn't have all these computations when they decide how to applaud a performance. They react to what they see based on their own computations. And sometimes the audience's computer uses a different version of Windows Vista than the judges' computer.

 

[janetfan]

I think there is a misconception about what the problem is. Wuzrobbing, booing the umpire, getting mad because my favorite skater didn't win -- that does not lessen the popularity of the sport.

The problem is this. Under ordinal judging the spectator can go away saying, oh those stupid judges, even a blind person can see that Weir outskated Lysacek!

Under the CoP, the message from the skating establishment is, oh you stupid spectator, you don't know a Salchow from a flip, just shut up and we will tell you who skated well and who didn't.

Bingo :agree:
It feels like the fans are shutout to an extent. Disengage your fan base - and then wonder why you have difficulty selling a once popular TV sport/spectacle and voila!

What did they expect :think:

 

[gkelly]

The problem is this. Under ordinal judging the spectator can go away saying, oh those stupid judges, even a blind person can see that Weir outskated Lysacek!

Under the CoP, the message from the skating establishment is, oh you stupid spectator, you don't know a Salchow from a flip, just shut up and we will tell you who skated well and who didn't.

Well, you can interpret it that way if you have an inferiority complex and a chip on your shoulder.

Or you can interpret it as "The difference between a salchow and a flip is important. Other, more subtle differences, are important too (e.g., difference between "lip" and flip). To be fair to the skaters, the rules can't ignore those differences just because casual spectators aren't aware of them. If you want to have informed opinions about the results, inform yourself of the rules, read the protocols (which are now available to the public, albeit not until after the final results are official), and


And then the informed fans can say "Oh those stupid judges, even a blind person can see that X had a true flip and Z lipped!" or "Oh those stupid judges, how could they give X and Z the same scores for Interpretation when X was so much bettter!?"

Isn't that a lot of the fun on discussion boards like this?

Uninformed fans can still react in general terms just as they always did. And there were always plenty of "Those stupid judges!" reactions under 6.0 even when the judges had very good reasons for their scores and the fans, even comparatively informed fans, were looking only at more superficial aspects of the program.

What they can't do any more is fool themselves that the details they don't see aren't important.

But it's a lot easier now than pre-internet and pre-public protocols to inform oneself.

 

[R.D.]

I think there is a misconception about what the problem is. Wuzrobbing, booing the umpire, getting mad because my favorite skater didn't win -- that does not lessen the popularity of the sport.

The problem is this. Under ordinal judging the spectator can go away saying, oh those stupid judges, even a blind person can see that Weir outskated Lysacek!

Under the CoP, the message from the skating establishment is, oh you stupid spectator, you don't know a Salchow from a flip, just shut up and we will tell you who skated well and who didn't.

RIGHT ON

Couldn't have said it better myself. Sometimes I feel this way. I especially feel that this is how many of the adamant supporters of the Cop on GS (and other boards) come across, even if unintentional.

What Cop does IMO is make it harder for the casual fan to follow. And what's worse: even if the casual fan DOES bother to learn it (e.g. a fan explaining it to them, curiosity), next season the rules are different and that fan has to relearn everything now. In contrast, the essence of the 6.0 system never changed over time: 6.0 always (supposedly) meant perfection.

I'd argue that part of sport IS blaming refs/officials/judges/whomever for a person's or team's loss. That's what gets fans really invested in the sport, besides having a home team or favorite athlete to cheer for. If people accepted the result EVERY SINGLE TIME where'd you think we'd be? Change does not usually happen without dissent first. in addition, I'd also make the point that the Cop system makes it more difficult for the casual fan to cry foul over the result because a single number on the screen gives the (false) impression that the result is the result and that's how it came out, too bad if you don't like it. After all, that's how competitions against the clock are determined.

But, with all that said, I think factors are compounding to hasten the decline of skating in the US. The Cop (I think, just from hearing around) is part of it, but not ALL of it. As long as there's not an American lady in contention, skating will continue to sputter here. And, more than ever, the US TV networks no longer need to rely on skating for good Winter Olys ratings. The other sports are doing just fine attracting viewers, especially when the Americans do well.

 

[R.D.]

Well, you can interpret it that way if you have an inferiority complex and a chip on your shoulder.

Or you can interpret it as "The difference between a salchow and a flip is important. Other, more subtle differences, are important too (e.g., difference between "lip" and flip). To be fair to the skaters, the rules can't ignore those differences just because casual spectators aren't aware of them. If you want to have informed opinions about the results, inform yourself of the rules, read the protocols (which are now available to the public, albeit not until after the final results are official), and


And then the informed fans can say "Oh those stupid judges, even a blind person can see that X had a true flip and Z lipped!" or "Oh those stupid judges, how could they give X and Z the same scores for Interpretation when X was so much bettter!?"

Isn't that a lot of the fun on discussion boards like this?

Uninformed fans can still react in general terms just as they always did. And there were always plenty of "Those stupid judges!" reactions under 6.0 even when the judges had very good reasons for their scores and the fans, even comparatively informed fans, were looking only at more superficial aspects of the program.

What they can't do any more is fool themselves that the details they don't see aren't important.

But it's a lot easier now than pre-internet and pre-public protocols to inform oneself.

I now ask this: who's gonna take the time to read those things besides dedicated skating fans? Come on. Let's try to see the big picture rather than look from inside the skatefan bubble. Frankly, it's just a bunch of numbers and for anyone other than dedicated, informed skating fans, they need explaining. Where are they going to get that info? Better yet, if I simply watch every 4 years and do other things in the meantime, why am I going to care enough anyway?

More than ever, TV needs to convey the rules and results as clearly and concisely as possible. Going into details will turn people off, but at the same time, being general and vague "That's worth a LOT of points!!" will confuse people when results need explaining. And sometimes even the experts don't understand the score. Doesn't help matters any. (ETA: I think someone like Tara Lipinski could find that happy medium: keeping the viewer informed without being confusing, and making the TV viewer feel like he/she is knowledgeable enough about the sport to continue watching. The diving commentator does that; why can't they do it in skating?)

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I think there is a misconception about what the problem is. Wuzrobbing, booing the umpire, getting mad because my favorite skater didn't win -- that does not lessen the popularity of the sport.

The problem is this. Under ordinal judging the spectator can go away saying, oh those stupid judges, even a blind person can see that Weir outskated Lysacek!

Under the CoP, the message from the skating establishment is, oh you stupid spectator, you don't know a Salchow from a flip, just shut up and we will tell you who skated well and who didn't.

Excellent post!!! The CoP in its efforts to make more of a Sport rather than a Glamorized art form, tends to affect the spectator the worst way. It tells you who won as if the spectator is incapable of having a thinking differently. It does gives you reasons for that decision which no spectator will understand or try to learn. Why should they? How much love of figure skating is going to have them spend hours learning these directives and all the amendments each year? and if some did learn it, would they agree with whatever bullets were used since they do not know which were used? This would also be good for the more knowledgeable fans as well.

Other than the cheating involved in SLC, the CoP remedy made things worse for figure skating, imo. We have to face the fact that the CoP is a major player in turning off spectators. A simple solution would be to grade the different element as a consensus and show the results on the jumbothon. SPINS. JUMPS, FOOTWORK for the Technical, and LINE, MUSICIANSHIP, INNOVATION for the Manner of Performance.

At least the spectators can go home saying, He must have left out a jump, or that travelling spin hurt his score.

The judges know the nitty gritty points to look for in a program. They can do that work and come up with their scores for the aforementioned outline, and someone can come up with a competition consensus outline. Placements to follow.

 

[R.D.]

Like I mentioned above, it would help tremendously if NBC and the other US TV networks did a better job of conveying the rules to the audience. It's OK (and helpful) to have fluff segments explaining various things (like DGs), but if we don't get a commentator who can convey what works and what doesn't as the skater is skating, we won't get anywhere.

And even if we did that, without an American lady in contention, who'd watch skating now even if 6.0 was still around? Then there's still the debate as to whether the product of Cop (the skating on the ice) is detracting from what made skating a good TV sport in the past.

 

[gkelly]

I now ask this: who's gonna take the time to read those things besides dedicated skating fans?

Who's going to take the time to learn the difference between a ball and a strike, fair and foul, out and safe?

As a casual baseball fan, should I be able to say "Boo, he hit the ball, he should get a point. He ran around to home plate, he should get four points."?

Isn't the fun that baseball fans have booing the umpires based on actually appreciating the details?

 

[kappa_1]

Who's going to take the time to learn the difference between a ball and a strike, fair and foul, out and safe?

As a casual baseball fan, should I be able to say "Boo, he hit the ball, he should get a point. He ran around to home plate, he should get four points."?

Isn't the fun that baseball fans have booing the umpires based on actually appreciating the details?

Exactly.

Bending rules such that casual viewers always know who wins, who comes second, etc. is dangerous territory. By this logic, a skater completing, say, 2 triple toe loops, 2 triple salchows and a triple loop (some underrotated) trumps a skater executing, say one of each triple and maybe falling on a triple salchow. This is a bit of a straw man, but the point is many casual fans don't have much of an idea of what is going on, and often can't even tell the difference between jumps anyway.

For instance, for the life of me, I can never understand American Football by simply watching it. I've gone to several games, and watched it on television several times. I know when one team scores a touchdown, how many points it gets, and how much a field goal is worth. That's about it. Don't even get me started on all those baseball stats.

The essence of the COP is pretty simple- he/she who scores the most points wins. The nuances require explanation, but I defy anyone to give me an example of a sport without its fair share of detailed, often subjective rules. Well, maybe individual track events but that's about it.

Figure skating is a complex sport which combines athelticism and artistry, and thus requires a more complex system to deal with the different factors which play into a result. For the life of me, I could never explain to a casual fan why Fumie Suguri got a 5.4 for technical merit, while Maria Butyrskaya got a 5.6. The explanation of "Butyrskaya was better over all" is vague at best. Try explaining why skater X placed 7th in the SP, and 2nd in the LP, but somehow ended up 6th overall because of skater Y and Z's placements. It was all very confusing...that is, until commentators explained it. Until the CoP, the scoring system failed to take into account the many individual elements which contributed to the skating program.

We all hate change, and I think this is the heart of the matter. In the year 2065 when the ISU switches to the perfect 10 system, we will all be up in arms again, and reminisce about the good ol' days of CoP.

 

[Mathman]

Well, you can interpret it that way if you have an inferiority complex and a chip on your shoulder.

I do, I do!

But now look at your reply to an earnest fan: "Read the protocols, dumb***."

 

[gkelly]

I think of it more as People who understand figure skating judging make up an exclusive club.

But you don't have to be rich or popular to join -- you just have to make the effort to learn it.

So I'm not saying "Go away dumb***."

But rather "Come on in! It's fun in here!"

You're welcome to stay outside and have a different kind of fun. But don't expect the sport to define its rules for the benefit of the outsiders at the expense of the insiders.

Especially when it's easier than ever to get inside.

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

With all due respect, if someone cannot take time to learn the rules, I have a really hard time taking in their concerns. I recognize that sounds condescending but there's no other way around it. If the sport declines and falls because the audience doesn't care about the rules, then it declines and falls. RD, you're talking about something so fundamental to the sport as a whole that I just cannot wrap my mind around it. Why should the audience be spoonfed pablum just because they want it. That's like arguing McDonalds should be a fine dining establishment because of "over 99 billion served." If I'm a snob, so be it.

 

[Spun Silver]

Excellent post!!! The CoP in its efforts to make more of a Sport rather than a Glamorized art form, tends to affect the spectator the worst way. It tells you who won as if the spectator is incapable of having a thinking differently. It does gives you reasons for that decision which no spectator will understand or try to learn. Why should they? How much love of figure skating is going to have them spend hours learning these directives and all the amendments each year? and if some did learn it, would they agree with whatever bullets were used since they do not know which were used? This would also be good for the more knowledgeable fans as well.

Other than the cheating involved in SLC, the CoP remedy made things worse for figure skating, imo. We have to face the fact that the CoP is a major player in turning off spectators. A simple solution would be to grade the different element as a consensus and show the results on the jumbothon. SPINS. JUMPS, FOOTWORK for the Technical, and LINE, MUSICIANSHIP, INNOVATION for the Manner of Performance.

At least the spectators can go home saying, He must have left out a jump, or that travelling spin hurt his score.

The judges know the nitty gritty points to look for in a program. They can do that work and come up with their scores for the aforementioned outline, and someone can come up with a competition consensus outline. Placements to follow.

I like the basic idea of this proposal, if I have it right: the average ("consensus") scores for each element should be posted in real time so all can see it, and simplify the elements somewhat. Joesitz seems to be suggesting something between the extreme simplicity of the scores posted now (just technical, program and overall) and the extreme detail of the protocols which are available only later, and only to the dedicated few.