Hersh: Nagasu not on par with Flatt? HUH?

[PolymerBob]

There is another factor that could confuse a casual fan. My mother watched the ladies' free at Skate America on TV with me. Rachael clearly beat Yu-Na in that segment. My mother couldn't understand why Yu-Na got the gold. I tried to explain the concept of a short program, but Mom couldn't grasp it.

Maye the old expression in correct, "If it didn't happen in television, it didn't happen."

 

[janetfan]

The casual fan who is watching a championship, will look disdainfully at any kind of FALL regardless if the skater gets up and continues. The casual fan will not understand an UR who continues the program. This will not change regardless of any amendment to the regulations. The question is How much will that affect the casual fan in returning to see another championship? IMO, only the joy in seeing good presentations will bring them back, and seeing only one good performance, is not enough.
signed by Joesitz, Keeper of the Flow in figure skating.

Dear Mr Flow,

It is interesting that you place such value on the flow and good presentation.
Having read so many of your posts I thought you might have signed off like this:

"Joesitz, Keeper of the proper edge in figure skating."

Anyway - it seems to me that CoP has placed too much emphasis on the tech. Big events are now more about the tech panel and less about he skaters. Do fans watch skating because they are fascinated by the calls of the tech panel? Maybe NBC needs to interview the tech panel and show us profiles about them since they have become the "stars" at competitions.

How about this - rather than seeing the tech panel routinely taking 4-12 points off a score let's reduce the penalties and with it the importance of the tech panel.

Why not give skating back to the skaters? It is not as much fun seeing the look of fear in the eyes of so many of these skaters. I think even the casual fans can sense they are watching overly cautious performances.

Why is it that we constantly hear "if only Mao could skate in competition with the joy we see in her exhibition programs?"
I think it is ashame the casual fans didn't see this in Vancouver:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6F1_xhSCnM

What great skating and what a performance

 

[Mathman]

There is another factor that could confuse a casual fan. My mother watched the ladies' free at Skate America on TV with me. Rachael clearly beat Yu-Na in that segment. My mother couldn't understand why Yu-Na got the gold. I tried to explain the concept of a short program, but Mom couldn't grasp it.

It would be better if only ordinals carried forward.

 

[janetfan]

It would be better if only ordinals carried forward.

And how would you carry ordinals into the LP?

 

[Mathman]

And how would you carry ordinals into the LP?

Factored placements, as in the 6.0 system. The point totals for the SP would be used only to determine the placements in the short program. LP point totals determine placement in the LP. Final score = LP + 1/2 SP ordinals, lowest wins, LP break ties.

Like in the World Series, if you win game one by a score of 20 to nothing, all you get to carry forward is the win.

For Polymer Bob's mom, if only the LP were televised they could begin the broadcast by showing the top three SPs.

Edited to add: So from the television spectators point of view it would go like this. Among the top three, whoever wins the LP wins the gold medal.

If someone should strike from fourth or fifth place, it would be like the 2002 Olympics. That skater skated great in the LP and the top three all made visible serious errors. Either way the audience goes home feeling that the best performance won.

 

[Tonichelle]

Anyway - it seems to me that CoP has placed too much emphasis on the tech. Big events are now more about the tech panel and less about he skaters. Do fans watch skating because they are fascinated by the calls of the tech panel? Maybe NBC needs to interview the tech panel and show us profiles about them since they have become the "stars" at competitions.
:

yes, because in sport it shouldn't be about who does things better or even the best, it's just about who has the biggest megawatt smile.

 

[janetfan]

yes, because in sport it shouldn't be about who does things better or even the best, it's just about who has the biggest megawatt smile.

That is not what I said although your interpretation is reasonable enough.

So you prefer a frowning skater? Or one who shows a dull presentation?

Seems you are a big Kurt fan, no?
Sorry but he embodies what I am talking about. Strange then you seem to love the flashy Mr Browning and his superb showmanship so well.

Or am I mistaken?

 

[Mathman]

^ But...I think Toni's point is that we can enjoy Browning's showmanship as a professional entertainer, while at the same time acknowledge that, hey, he missed his triple Axel in the short program = no Olympic medal. That's sports.

Edited to add: Not that there is anything wrong with a megawatt smile.

http://www.usfigureskating.org/content/events/200506/skatecanada/action/czisny-smile.jpg

Same skater: "Please, please, please, let me land this!"

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/photos/uncategorized/2009/01/24/czisny_300.jpg

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Dear Mr Flow,

It is interesting that you place such value on the flow and good presentation.
Having read so many of your posts I thought you might have signed off like this:

"Joesitz, Keeper of the proper edge in figure skating."

Well, that too. I'm serious about killing the name of a jump by a wrong edge takeoff- excusing Senior Skaters as if they were beginners; and Spirals without Edges should go back to Novice and learn how to edge.

How about this - rather than seeing the tech panel routinely taking 4-12 points off a score let's reduce the penalties and with it the importance of the tech panel.

Their decision to take off so many points is absurd and absolutely does not have justification for all 3 of the Major errors. They do not like something simple and understandable. a proposal like just give each of the major errors an automatic deduction would not be acceptable. Why did they decide one error is worse than another :confused

Why not give skating back to the skaters? It is not as much fun seeing the look of fear in the eyes of so many of these skaters. I think even the casual fans can sense they are watching overly cautious performances.

Oh to Free up the skaters with a Free Program and let them decide what they want judged rather than a Rule telling them 'it's restricted'. If a skater has a piece of music that demands something special like a Triple Toe Wally, or a series of Double Axels to go with the Program - why not? They could do these tricks but they will not get credit for them. Too bad, it would show a bit of creativity.

 

[janetfan]

Well, that too. I'm serious about killing the name of a jump by a wrong edge takeoff- excusing Senior Skaters as if they were beginners; and Spirals without Edges should go back to Novice and learn how to edge.


Their decision to take off so many points is absurd and absolutely does not have justification for all 3 of the Major errors. They do not like something simple and understandable. a proposal like just give each of the major errors an automatic deduction would not be acceptable. Why did they decide one error is worse than another :confused


Oh to Free up the skaters with a Free Program and let them decide what they want judged rather than a Rule telling them 'it's restricted'. If a skater has a piece of music that demands something special like a Triple Toe Wally, or a series of Double Axels to go with the Program - why not? They could do these tricks but they will not get credit for them. Too bad, it would show a bit of creativity.

I agree with all of these points. I also agree with your proposal of showing more complete scores in the arena and also to TV viewers. I think they dropped the ball on this and maybe waited too long.

And what of mathman's idea to use an ordinal after the SP? Is that too unfair to the great SP skaters?

I wonder what must have been going through Mao's head as she took the ice for her LP in vancouver. The judges seemed to signal Mao that Yuna's skating pleased them so much they really did not consider Mao worthy of the OGM.

Was it so wrong that 6.0 judged performances comparitively? Under the old sytem Yuna would have gotten huge scores - but the judges still would have left room for Mao.
In Vancouver it was a slam dunk and turned the event into a snoozefest. After Yuna skated the judges made it perfectly clear that Mao could not win.

Maybe that is just my opinion and I get the argument that all Mao had to do was score more points........ but realistically we all knew it was over and it did not feel like they left any chance to top Yuna's score.

I am not complaining about Yuna winning - but from the perspective of fans the excitement factor was gone and they could have switched over to ski jumping since we basically knew it was over.

Did NBC feel the skating was not as exciting as it used to be - and that is why they had such limited coverage in Vancouver?

 

[Mrs. P]

Did NBC feel the skating was not as exciting as it used to be - and that is why they had such limited coverage in Vancouver?

I don't know the answer to this question per se, but I do know that NBC tends to be very "USA centric" in their coverage (as opposed to Canadian TV, which is known for featuring a variety of athletics of all countries). So I think the fact we didn't have a USA lady skater competing for gold, it made it really less motivating for NBC to feature as opposed to Nordic Combined, which while completely boring to most figure skating fans, was worthy because the USA won its first gold medal in that event EVER! (Personally, I kinda of enjoyed watching it).

 

[R.D.]

There is another factor that could confuse a casual fan. My mother watched the ladies' free at Skate America on TV with me. Rachael clearly beat Yu-Na in that segment. My mother couldn't understand why Yu-Na got the gold. I tried to explain the concept of a short program, but Mom couldn't grasp it.

Maye the old expression in correct, "If it didn't happen in television, it didn't happen."

But did you guys watch the entire broadcast? If I'm not mistaken Yuna's short was also shown on TV...(granted, not Flatt's as well, but still)

 

[janetfan]

I just came across an interesting NY Times article about Sasha, NBC and the Ladies SP event at Natls.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/23/sports/olympics/23longman.html

Did the writer get it right?
Below are some quotes and the link above has the full article.


"Desperate to restore a pulse to a flatlining sport, U.S. Figure Skating and NBC built their promotions for the national championships around the resuscitation of Sasha Cohen."

"Rachael Flatt, 17, uses pep to disguise her lack of speed and artistry. Nagasu, 16, jumped and spun mesmerizingly Thursday, but she is still given to bouts of crying and lapses of self-assurance."

"The new scoring system has left her head full of numbers, Cohen said, as she makes sure that she spins the proper number of revolutions and holds her spiral for the required number of seconds. It’s something she does not like, counting instead of simply performing."

"Sasha took off on the wrong — inside — edge on her triple lutz and landed shakily on a double toe, then settled down and drew the crowd into her enchanting grasp."
......................................................................................................................

Reading this article it is not so hard to find mistakes US Skating is making. Letting Sasha get away with bad jumps but penalizing Mirai did not boost skating's reputation for integrity and fair judging.

The scoring of Flat like she is a strong artisitic skater was disappointing and inaccurate.

Putting on the event so late also cost them many viewers on the East coast.

Sometimes it feels like skating has a "death wish." :disapp:

 

[gkelly]

I just came across an interesting NY Times article about Sasha, NBC and the Ladies SP event at Natls.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/23/sports/olympics/23longman.html

......................................................................................................................

Reading this article it is not so hard to find mistakes US Skating is making. Letting Sasha get away with bad jumps but penalizing Mirai did not boost skating's reputation for integrity and fair judging.

Mirai beat Sasha in both programs at Nationals. How does that equal letting Sasha but not Mirai get away with bad jumps?

Putting on the event so late also cost them many viewers on the East coast.

It was scheduled to end at 11 PM EST on Saturday. That has pretty much been the case every year, when ABC covered Nationals as well as NBC in the last year.

 

[janetfan]

Mirai beat Sasha in both programs at Nationals. How does that equal letting Sasha but not Mirai get away with bad jumps?

If you want to believe that if Mirai's opening 3x2 combo had been as sloppy as Sasha's - and still would have received the same score that is your prerogative.

It is the author's opinion - and also a former skater named Michelle Kwan - who apparently agreed that it was on awfully late.

 

[Mathman]

It is the author's opinion - and also a former skater named Michelle Kwan - who apparently agreed that it was on awfully late.

I think gkelly was talking about the ladies long program, which was scheduled for 4:00-8:00 in Spokane. I think the last two hours were televised live, 9:00-11:00 on the east coast.

The article was about the short program, which was indeed on too late for most east coast viewers., ending at 2:00 AM. Thank goodness for all the Golden Skate play-by-playuers. I could get up the next morning and check out the whole competition.

If you want to believe that if Mirai's opening 3x2 combo had been as sloppy as Sasha's - and still would have received the same score that is your prerogative.

How's this for spot-on judging? The judges gave Mirai's opening 3Lz+2T combo exactly 0.43 points more than Sasha's. Mirai won the short program over Sasha by exactly 0.43 points.

 

[janetfan]

I think gkelly was talking about the ladies long program, which was scheduled for 4:00-8:00 in Spokane. I think the last two hours were televised live, 9:00-11:00 on the east coast.



How's this for spot-on judging? The judges gave Mirai's opening 3Lz+2T combo exactly 0.43 points more than Sasha's. Mirai won the short program over Sasha by exactly 0.43 points.

The article was about the short program, which was indeed on too late for most east coast viewers., ending at 2:00 AM. Thank goodness for all the Golden Skate play-by-playuers. I could get up the next morning and check out the whole competition.

I believe most honest folks scoring the opening 3lz+2T that we saw from Sasha and Mirai at the Natls SP would not have given Mirai only a .43 edge. Sasha had a problem on both jumps but our tech panel must have had pixie dust in their eyes when Sasha jumped. And it is no secret that NBC was spotted giving away free pixie dust that evening.

 

[R.D.]

The article was about the short program, which was indeed on too late for most east coast viewers., ending at 2:00 AM.

Now THAT was an event worth staying up late for. And I had that adrenaline really pumping for the first time in years...

 

[Mathman]

One of the judges gave Mirai a -2 on her combo. That judge must have thought Mirai went off the wrong edge.

Anyway, if the judgees gave Sasha a break in the short program they made up for it in the long. Sasha received a total of minus 9.15 GOE total on her jump elements.

 

[janetfan]

One of the judges gave Mirai a -2 on her combo. That judge must have thought Mirai went off the wrong edge.

Anyway, if the judgees gave Sasha a break in the short program they made up for it in the long. Sasha received a total of minus 9.15 GOE total on her jump elements.

The LP was a different story. NBC used up all of their pixie dust the night of the SP. They had none left for the LP - but did get the ratings up 43% over the previous year.
Again - we see the number 43 A coincidence? I don't belive in coincidences