Patrick Chan AND Don Jackson!

[Layfan]

Ha! I love when Kurt complains that he doesn't like Mother Nature because she took his hair and Patrick is all, Dude, she sort of blessed you with other talents, I woudn't be dissing Mother Nature, if I were you. Teehee.


Heh. Also love at the end when they get asked who they're favorite female skater is and they were all, er.. yeah, not touching that one with a 10 foot pole.

Funny vid. Thanks for posting.

 

[Short circuit]

Amen! I'm going to the show in Oshawa for sure.

 

[CdnSkateWatcher]

So, anyways. Quite the thread drift ... maybe this needs to be split into two parts: debates over whether Patrick and Kurt made an inappropriate comment, and excitement over Patrick and Don Jackson skating together. Perhaps the Kurt & Patty show references could be seperated ... and, in the meantime, does anyone know where we can get tickets to see the on-ice performance of these two gentlemen in April?????? My kids want to go ... including my son the figure skater - he's been on the ice in the past with Patrick, and we've always found him to be a genuinely nice guy who really enjoys skating - !

 

[Violet Bliss]

So, anyways. Quite the thread drift ...

Yes. Back to more relevant discussion.......

My kids want to go ... including my son the figure skater - he's been on the ice in the past with Patrick, and we've always found him to be a genuinely nice guy who really enjoys skating - !

Do tell us more about your and your son's encounter with Patrick.

 

[dorispulaski]

I moved the posts, as many of them as I could locate, on the subject of homophobia and bullying to the Politics forum, because the thread drift is far too severe.

If you want to continue to discuss that, please go

here.

 

[CdnSkateWatcher]

Yes. Back to more relevant discussion.......



Do tell us more about your and your son's encounter with Patrick.

There have been a few, because Patrick does skate locally, and did for many years; we're in the GTA area. The one that "sticks" most in my mind was several years ago; my little guy was indeed still little, and we were fairly new to the sport. He was on an open ice session (figure skaters of all levels) and my then little guy was practicing his singles. There was this teenager on the ice that we didn't recognize that was landing these huge jumps; needless to say, my little guy got in his way and then froze in terror. Instead of getting yelled at or made to feel uncomfortable, he got a big smile, and "hey, you're looking good - keep working!" - and then several later encouraging smiles and thumbs up. It was Patrick, of course - even back then there was this joy in his skating that really fired my little guy up to want to "do what THAT guy does". I always remember that as a great example of being a positive influence for skaters ...

 

[Blades of Passion]

Since some of you enjoyed the 2002 video, here's Kurt And Patty Show 2010, a hilarious bromance, if you haven't seen it last summer.

No wonder people have said they are creeped out by Patrick Chan's eyes. His left eye does not move upward!

EDIT: Err, I mean his right eye. Left from our camera perspective.

 

[Serious Business]

Few can be politically correct 100% of the time.

Can we please stop abusing the word "politically incorrect"? Or even trying to force this into a political issue and thus has to be segregated to another forum (this includes Dorispulaski and other forum mods). Kurt and Patrick are talking about the Biellmann, which is a purely figure skating topic that means nothing to politics or the vast majority of society. If we can't talk about their hateration of the Biellmann in a figure skating forum, where can we talk about it? And it's not politically incorrect when they're just plain incorrect. The fact is, Johnny Weir doesn't do the Biellmann and never attempted one. And no male skater who does the Biellman is disrespected, or should be.

I for one would like to see male skaters expand their moves and incorporate more moves traditionally done by females. This includes Biellmanns, spirals on one foot, layback spins and more. I don't think Browning and Chan has but the tiniest impact on whether gay kids are bullied and all that, especially when they're talking about something as specialized to figure skating as the Biellmann. I do think Kurt Browning, especially, is a respected figure in the sport, and Patrick Chan's (who is emerging as the great male skater of his generation) close mindedness may discourage other male skaters from exploring new movements.

And Patrick's close mindedness and ridiculous worry about losing respect over a flexibility move may explain his own style. While Patrick remains my favorite currently competing male skater, I find his movement a bit stiff. Not every move has to be completely upright, and the hips don't have to stay completely in line all the time. Being more comfortable and secure about movement may help Patrick loosen up.

 

[dorispulaski]

Hey, all I did was split the topic in the hopes that discussions of bullying were in Politics and discussions of skating were in the Edge. And inquire whether JW ever did a Biellman, which I was fairly sure he had not.

We can talk about men's Biellman's here in The Edge. Just politics & Social Commentary belongs in Politics. I would like to see Kurt or Patrick go on about the Biellmann being a girlie man stunt in front of Plush, who did Biellmann spins and Biellman spirals for years. OTOH, JW never did one because he is not flexible enough-something that is also true of Michelle Kwan and Rachael Flatt.

I like Rohene Ward's Charlotte and layback, and the skills of Jason Brown and Sawyer, for that matter. However, there are very few Biellmannesque spins that I have truly loved.

 

[Bluebonnet]

I for one would like to see male skaters expand their moves and incorporate more moves traditionally done by females. This includes Biellmanns, spirals on one foot, layback spins and more.

Right, and making this sport shrink even faster than it does. Making men not look like men and ladies not look like ladies. Thankfully, your wish won't happen anytime soon.

Doris, you did the right thing!:thumbsup:

 

[Serious Business]

Right, and making this sport shrink even faster than it does. Making men not look like men and ladies not look like ladies. Thankfully, your wish won't happen anytime soon.

Actually, I am getting my wish. Because of the COP, especially its newer updates that restrict how a skater can gain level in spins (there's a limit to how many times a level feature can be used), more and more male skaters have to show more flexibility in order to boost spin levels. For instance, we're seeing a lot more male skaters do donut spins now.

But that's not going to stop the sport from picking up new fans. Because to an outsider or someone new to skating, a move like a Biellmann or a donut spin would not be associated with one gender or another. In the rest of society, there are certain gestures, movement, styles that are associated with one gender or another, the Biellmann, donut spins even arabesque spirals (which may be familiar from ballet, but ballet isn't mainstream any more either) just aren't part of most people's body language vocabulary. It would be a completely neutral move. The only thing that distinguishes them to a newbie is that they show flexibility. But so do many other skating moves men have always done, like Russian split jumps, sit spins, spread eagles, etc.

It may drive some existing fans away from skating, because they don't like to see change. But then, this would be a far slower and smaller change than adopting the COP. It will sneak up on people and they will get used to it. For all your sensitivity towards men doing flexibility moves, have you been noticing more men doing donut spins and objecting to it? You're already sucked in, it's far too late!

 

[evangeline]

Right, and making this sport shrink even faster than it does. Making men not look like men and ladies not look like ladies. Thankfully, your wish won't happen anytime soon.

That is a terrible and extremely specious argument against male skaters incorporating more moves done traditionally by ladies skaters. After all, weren't the six basic figure skating jumps traditionally all done/invented by male skaters? Female skaters soon followed suit and as such, according to your argument, did "not look like ladies"...and the sport has hardly suffered for it.

And don't forget, gender norms change as well--e.g. high heels were first worn by men, etc. No point in drawing artificial distinctions and clinging to them just for the sake of it. I don't see what's particularly feminine about elements like Takahashi's layback or Sawyer's spirals. They're cool moves and they often are great highlights in their programs--what's not to like?

 

[Violet Bliss]

There have been a few, because Patrick does skate locally, and did for many years; we're in the GTA area. The one that "sticks" most in my mind was several years ago; my little guy was indeed still little, and we were fairly new to the sport. He was on an open ice session (figure skaters of all levels) and my then little guy was practicing his singles. There was this teenager on the ice that we didn't recognize that was landing these huge jumps; needless to say, my little guy got in his way and then froze in terror. Instead of getting yelled at or made to feel uncomfortable, he got a big smile, and "hey, you're looking good - keep working!" - and then several later encouraging smiles and thumbs up. It was Patrick, of course - even back then there was this joy in his skating that really fired my little guy up to want to "do what THAT guy does". I always remember that as a great example of being a positive influence for skaters ...

Thank you for the story. It is so much like what others have said about him, a super nice guy. There are also accounts of him being helpful when nobody else has been. Since he started achieving higher success, he's been giving his time to help young skaters and other children. I'm so proud of him and so glad for Canada.

eta Does anyone think he may unveil his new show program in this event? He did it last year at a small Canadian club.

I just looked up the dates of World's Team Trophy and it will be held April 14-17. So I guess he wouldn't have time to prepare the new show program, especially since he said he was not going to 4CC because he wanted to conserve himself for Worlds and later to win the WTT for Canada this year. I can hardly wait to see all his new programs.

 

[Bluebonnet]

Actually, I am getting my wish. Because of the COP, especially its newer updates that restrict how a skater can gain level in spins (there's a limit to how many times a level feature can be used), more and more male skaters have to show more flexibility in order to boost spin levels. For instance, we're seeing a lot more male skaters do donut spins now.

But that's not going to stop the sport from picking up new fans. Because to an outsider or someone new to skating, a move like a Biellmann or a donut spin would not be associated with one gender or another. In the rest of society, there are certain gestures, movement, styles that are associated with one gender or another, the Biellmann, donut spins even arabesque spirals (which may be familiar from ballet, but ballet isn't mainstream any more either) just aren't part of most people's body language vocabulary. It would be a completely neutral move. The only thing that distinguishes them to a newbie is that they show flexibility. But so do many other skating moves men have always done, like Russian split jumps, sit spins, spread eagles, etc.

It may drive some existing fans away from skating, because they don't like to see change. But then, this would be a far slower and smaller change than adopting the COP. It will sneak up on people and they will get used to it. For all your sensitivity towards men doing flexibility moves, have you been noticing more men doing donut spins and objecting to it? You're already sucked in, it's far too late!

Yes, I've realized that CoP is helping it tremendously in this direction.

But Russian split jump, in my understanding, was traditionally male movement in their folk dance.

Isn't donut spin a girly spin? It's like a lady movement in ballet Swan Lake.

I don't know if I could get used to it. At least so far, they are ugly movements to me if male skaters do them.

That is a terrible and extremely specious argument against male skaters incorporating more moves done traditionally by ladies skaters.

What did I hold against male skaters? You do not mind their doing it, you just mind my saying it. What I'm saying is the truth. You like it, that's your taste. I don't like it, this is my taste. Against vast majority in the forum, I don't like Takahashi's layback and Sawyer's skating is not my cup of tea.

Well, enough OT from me.

 

[Serious Business]

But Russian split jump, in my understanding, was traditionally male movement in their folk dance.

Isn't donut spin a girly spin? It's like a lady movement in ballet Swan Lake.

Very true about the Russian split jump in Russian folk dance. But most people aren't familiar with Russian folk dancing. And in skating, the move is done equally by both genders now. Very, very dainty skaters like Sasha Cohen and Alissa Czisny do the Russian split all the time. No one would accuse them of being manly, at least not after they wax their mustaches.

On the other foot, the donut spin does not exist in traditional ballet that I know of (or any modern stuff I've seen). It's definitely not in any traditional stagings of Swan Lake (have seen a few). To anyone outside skating, it's a gender neutral move.

 

[dorispulaski]

Plush had a very spiffy donut spin. I don't care which gender does it, as long as they don't have to stick their rump up in the air to get into the position to do it.

 

[prettykeys]

Very true about the Russian split jump in Russian folk dance. But most people aren't familiar with Russian folk dancing. And in skating, the move is done equally by both genders now. Very, very dainty skaters like Sasha Cohen and Alissa Czisny do the Russian split all the time. No one would accuse them of being manly, at least not after they wax their mustaches.

Not to put Mathman on the spot, but I'll do it anyway - I think he mentioned that he wasn't a huge fan of girls doing the Russian split jumps. Or maybe I was misinterpreting him? I think he preferred falling leafs for girls.

 

[Mathman]

^ I guess I do, somewhat (like a falling leaf better).

http://michellekwan.fateback.com/images/99-02/02natslp-fallingleaf.jpg

Although I can't find fault with this eye-popper.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...lit_Jump.jpg/220px-Sasha_Cohen_Split_Jump.jpg

As for donut spins, I don't like them for men or for ladies.

I do like a good, manly spread-eagle, though.

http://video.lifeskate.net/images/boitano.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2584/4036152345_cd486ed637.jpg

 

[Bluebonnet]

^ I guess I do, somewhat (like a falling leaf better).

http://michellekwan.fateback.com/images/99-02/02natslp-fallingleaf.jpg

Although I can't find fault with this eye-popper.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...lit_Jump.jpg/220px-Sasha_Cohen_Split_Jump.jpg

As for donut spins, I don't like them for men or for ladies.

I do like a good, manly spread-eagle, though.

http://video.lifeskate.net/images/boitano.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2584/4036152345_cd486ed637.jpg

Falling leaf is so much more elegant than Russian split jump in Ladies. Although, I do agree that Russian split jump is impressive no matter who does it, men or women. I prefer the power that jump has brought to men.

Spread-eagle is neutral to me, while donut spin, layback, and biellmann spin are so girly. I'd like to see the flexibility contest being left to the ladies. Yeah, I've just realized that I've personally drawn a line between men's movements and ladies' movements. And I've realized, first time, that this line might be one of the keys which have helped to form my preferences on men's as well as ladies' skating.

 

[Mathman]

I am really going to get in trouble now, but in thinking about the topic of girly men in figure skating it suddenty struck me that I can't actually think of any girly girls in the sport. Look at the thighs on those broads! (Oh, sorry. : )

Even a fem lady like Dorothy Hamill is more tomboy than dress-up tea party with Barbie and Ken.

OK, I'll go back to tatting my doily now.