What do you want to see at Worlds for the Men?

[Tonichelle]

Exciting news. Although I don't really think that program can be saved. I can't abide those cutesy jazzy numbers of Rachael's. Grow up, already, girlfriend.

"Why do we have to grow up? I know more adults who have the children's approach to life. They're people who don't give a hang what the Joneses do. You see them at Disneyland every time you go there. They are not afraid to be delighted with simple pleasures, and they have a degree of contentment with what life has brought - sometimes it isn't much, either." - Walt Disney​

 

[Layfan]

Actually I've never said that. Lots of people have though as it seems to be an obvious conclusion by consensus.

I do project Chan's chances of winning the Worlds this year as very high. Yes the ice is slippery but ultimately it's the mental strength that determines how much of a skater's known abilities he will bring on that slippery ice on that day of competition. I see Chan and Takahashi as the two strongest competitors today who can bring their best or close to it when the chips are down, in which case Chan's TES will blow Takahashi away even if Dai performed as well as at last worlds, the difference being the quads - Chan's 3 4Ts vs Takahashi's one underotated and two footed 4F.

It's hard to imagine anyone beating Patrick's nationals skate. But that certainly is different from saying HE'S unbeatable. Patrick has his weaknesses. I don't forget that he doubled his axel and in the short at nationals. It's still his nemesis.

If Patrick were a bit more reliable than I'd bet on him for sure but he's not Yuna - yet.

His great advantage this year is that he has the most reliable quads of any of the men. I still can't get over that! His quads are so fast in the air.

I still prefer Daisuke as a performer, and he has pretty awesome basic skating of his own. I really want one of the two of them to win. I doesn't really matter to me which one. I just want both to be magical.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

^^^^
We all have our favorites, and sometimes having a favorite can overwhelm the writer.

I would have a favorite in Brezina because of his musicality but he's been injured so I can't push him this season.

Patrick has a lot going for him. His feet with those long legs claw up the stroking which makes him look good, but his carriage if often uneven throughout the program. He makes me nervous. If he can stabilize his body and hit all the elements, he's definitely podium bound.

 

[Layfan]

^^^^
We all have our favorites, and sometimes having a favorite can overwhelm the writer.

What is your point? My point was pretty much the same as yours - that Patrick needs to deliver. I'm no Chanatic - I can actually think of quite a few men skaters over the years I'd rather rewatch. But is it really so bonkers to you that some of us see the two-time world silver medalist, current GPF champion and the man with the most consistent quads of the season as a potential world champion this year?

It's fine that you see flaws in Patrick's skating - so do I. But even with those flaws, I've seen Patrick's best performance of the season and I have yet to see any other man match it. Not even close.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

^^^^
Sorry about that, but one skate does not do it for me. It does impress me though, and I want to view the skater with another competition. In my case it wil be the World Championship.

 

[Layfan]

^^^^
Sorry about that, but one skate does not do it for me. It does impress me though, and I want to view the skater with another competition. In my case it wil be the World Championship.

Oh, geez. Nobody is crowning him champion yet. OBVIOUSLY, what he and all the other skaters do at worlds is what matters. All I said is that he has the potential to become world champion and I don't don't see how that makes me some kind of befuddled writer blinded by having some favorites.

 

[Violet Bliss]

^^^^
We all have our favorites, and sometimes having a favorite can overwhelm the writer.

Layfan addressed that.

In view of further exchanges while I was writing this, with interuptions, I'd add that what Layfan and myself have done here is just laying out the chances. Even my podium prediction was not specific on exact placements. I don't like to tempt the skating god whose sense of humour I am not wise to.

I would have a favorite in Brezina because of his musicality but he's been injured so I can't push him this season.

Brezina burst on the world scene with his jumps, not particularly noteworthy musicality. He has not followed up with performance reliability since while the super talented Kozuka and Oda have stepped up to be formidable competitors. Even if Brezina were healthy, he is still far from a safe bet for the podium, unless the stars align for a few top skaters to bomb and for him to bring the skate of his life.

Patrick has a lot going for him. His feet with those long legs claw up the stroking which makes him look good, but his carriage if often uneven throughout the program. He makes me nervous.

Patrick's stroking is indeed best in the world but his legs have sometimes been ridiculed as short and not what make him look good. His carriage is also one of the best, definitely an advantage over Oda, a major competitor.

If he can stabilize his body and hit all the elements, he's definitely podium bound.

He has hit all the elements more than anybody else and he has been on the podium in every competition he has taken part in this season.

No I'm not overwhelmed by favoritism. I actually don't like to post my view of Chan's podium chances because these days it seems just another voice in the crowd whereas I orignally joined the forum to voice my contrary opinion about him at the height of harsh judgements due to his falls at the first 2 GP events, and when Chan bashers enjoyed their most justified glee. I've maintained the same reasoned perspectives and expectations which by now have played out, and which, with additional subsequent observations affording more current perspectives, are still in place to play out.

 

[Violet Bliss]

^^^^
Sorry about that, but one skate does not do it for me. It does impress me though, and I want to view the skater with another competition. In my case it wil be the World Championship.

Chan has so far put out two unmatched performaces this season. As we discuss chances based on everybody doing their best, nobody else's best has come near these performances. Could you enlighten us with a performance that has sold you on any other skater's more convincing and deserving chances of winning the WC?

The skaters' skills and arsenals are known to all. The proverbial slippery ice will determine the actual outcome. To me, besides unexpected real life events, the slippery ice translates into the mental state of the competitors at the time they step on the ice. That's why I pick Takahashi and Chan to compare, as I believe they are the two with the greatest mental strength at the big events. As well, these two have the highest PCS, which are quite dependable from competition to competition.

I'd add that Takahashi and Chan are also likely the most motivated to win this WC, Chan having won two consecutive Silver and Takahashi competing at home as the current World Champ, possibly considering retirement from competitions. I'm not sure about Oda with his 4 Silvers this season! Must be frustrating to him but he also has confidence issue to begin with.

 

[jettasian]

I think many of the Chan haters are really insulting to Chan's skating. So you all expect him to fall 3-4 times eh? So all you remember is his falls and win? Well, maybe he won because he's the better skaters than those skaters didn't win? Really, GET OVER IT ALREADY! I guess haters are gonna hate.

 

[mot]

I hope I'm gonna put this right, so that I will not sound sarcastic - coz I don't mean to be.

That's why I pick Takahashi and Chan to compare, as I believe they are the two with the greatest mental strength at the big events.

I am overwhelmed by ^ comment - with joy, of course. As someone who's been loving Takahashi's skate for some years and having witnessed his many implosions, I am not 100% trusting that he can deliver... very sad, but it is a habit of many years, perhaps?

On a personal note, I am inclined to love so-called headcases, as their sensitivities and overloaded emotions sometimes create truly memorable performances, then make me care less about the scores and final placement. Talking about Daisuke, I prefer his Olympic free skate with a number of mistakes, some big and some minor, to the near-perfect skate at the Torino Worlds; the former was personally more moving, I thought I could see and feel whatever was going through his mind while skating. (Too much involvement emotionally, I know...)

I do love to see this in all skaters ended up on the podium. Less mistakes - yes please, but also performances that touch people's hearts and souls - even more so.

I am such a chicken that have been avoiding to make predictions - remembering about 08 Worlds, when Daisuke went in as a clear favourite after nailing 2 quads and everything else (except 3Lo stepping out) at 4CC, and ended up off the podium, and 09 Worlds, when Evan winning as the third man from the US...

 

[Ravensque]

Patrick was adding quads to two very difficult programs at the beginning of the season, and fitting them in (in competition) was something that was just going to take time, and eventually he has been able to do that with growing consistency each time out. His actual skating is so awsome it carried him, and also his recovery was very speedy whenever he fell that it hardly made an impact on the program. I hope he just continues to improve and wow his supporters and even his detractors....although some are going to put him down and detract whatever he does on the ice. For me, whatever happens at worlds, I'll just enjoy whatever he puts out there.............but I sure do hope he can repeat his Nats performance as that was the best FS I'd ever seen...It was just magical.

 

[Violet Bliss]

mot, can you explain for me something about Takahashi from a cultural perspective?

As you can see from the Quads Of The Season list I've compliled, Dai has a very poor record in his quad attempts this season. He has had just one success and the rest cost him so much directly and indirectly. He is much better off doing triples and even doubles than trying for quads. I know he has problems with 4T due to his knee injury so he's trying 4F, which is very smart because the GOE penalty is lighter relative to that for a 4T. Still, with the miserable success rate he's had, it's just not worth it and it hurts his overall scores and medal chances substantially.

Why does he insist on doing it? I feel the Japanese skaters, male and female, are pressured to do the hardest jumps, whether or not it's a good strategy. Could it be because of the tradition initiated by the great successful Japanese skating pioneers like Midori Ito, or other aspect of Japanese culture that place such importance on quad attempts?

eta I am especially interested in whether there is more pressure on someone with a hero status like Daisuke or if the same demand is made on all capable skaters? Unlike some earlier Japanese great jumpers, Daisuke is all round and the PCS king, so why is doing a quad in competition imperative?

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

^^^^
Sorry about that, but one skate does not do it for me. It does impress me though, and I want to view the skater with another competition. In my case it wil be the World Championship.

Fair enough. Lets remove names and focus strictly on numbers.

Skater X has the highest international score of the season, with approximately 10-11 points separating him from Skater Y (skaters Z and A are fifteen and twenty points behind, approx).

Skater X has the highest international score AVERAGE of the season, with approximately 7 points separating him from the averages calculated for skater Y and Z.

Skater X, Y, Z and A are separated by 11 points in terms of averages. The next skater (skaters B and C) are about eight points behind that top group.

You predict two skaters, Joesitz. Skater D and Skater E

Skater D's HIGH score is:
four points lower than Skater X's LOWEST score.
matched by Skater Y's LOWEST score.
is three points lower than Skater Z's lowest score
is four points HIGHER than Skater A's lowest score

Skater E's HIGH score is:
11 points lower than Skater X's LOWEST score.
7 points lower than Skater Y's LOWEST score.
is 10 points lower than Skater Z's lowest score
is three points lower than Skater A's lowest score

Skater X, at a competition not considered for international scores, had the cleanest skate of his season. He had the most technically difficult base value of the season, which topped his own most technically difficult base value posted at his best international event.

 

[mot]

SkateFiguring, let me try...

Yes, Japanese media do focus on so-called harder jumps, meaning rotation wise - I mean I do not think they know much about the difference between let's say lutz and sal. But I do not think there is pressure put on the skaters by them. The federation, coaches and teams are also not silly enough to take the media too seriously. Having said that, it is only quite recently that Japanese skaters become highly regarded for their artistic sides not only for their jumps, it is possible that in the training there has traditionally been stronger emphasis on mastering jumps when skaters are young. (The same way, there seems to be stronger focus on basic skating skills in the North America and more balletic training in Russia in general.)

I can also add something from Daisuke's personal view to answer your query. He explained the reason why he continues to try on quads regardless of rather poor success rate for the last couple of seasons as follows;

1. He started competing in the senior rank when it was considered not possible to win Men's competition without putting in quads - not only one but multiple of them if poss. The idea has stuck with him, he said - the true Men's champion for him was the one with the quad.
2. He used to be able to include two quads in a programme (07-08 season in which he landed them successfully at Japan Nats and the 4CC). According to his own words, for him to say he has truly returned to his former self after the injury, it is necessary to get back to that level technically.
3. He believes the only way to nail the quad in the competition is to keep on trying it in competitions regardless of the success rate. (This attitude seems to be shared by Kozuka - I think he has included the quad in his long programmes before he landed one for the first time - though two-footed - at the Olys for two seasons without a single success?)
4. Funnily enough, he said he does not like the quad as a jump and he would not therefore try it in the exhibitions and shows. He goes for the quad because it is in the spirit of competitive sport that one always trys the best they can. Ah, allegedly someone - perhaps from the federation? - suggested he should NOT include the quad in the free at the Vancouver Olys to secure a podium finish - a suggestion he ignored.

So it seems all personal.

You may still call it Japanese cultural aspect of his quest for the quad - that it is all about personal attitude. Culturally speaking, we do regard one's path to and/or quest for success as highly as success itself.

Hope this gives you some insight.

PS. I have a suspicion that his true love maybe Ice Dance - he said he had picked Pasquale Camerlongo as his choreographer because he really liked what he created for Derobel / Schoenfelder. Also he said in his recent interview, when he saw the top 3 dancers in the Nagano Olympics at the age of 12, he was so impressed by them that he just wanted to skate like them - not Ilia, not Stjko, not Phillippe, but Grishk/ Platov, Krylova / Ovsyannikov and Anissina /Peizerat. Funny, isn't it - considering his seeming fascination with the quad? But his love for Ice dance may have contributed greatly to his artistic side and PCS.

 

[genki]

I have a suspicion that his true love maybe Ice Dance

Hi Mot. Haqjimemashite:
I am Japanese too, living in US.
I guess your suspicion is right. He said somewhere long time ago, that if he has a choice between dance/pair, he said he would choose dance.
He also said in a variety show that if he is not a skater, he would probably be a dancer.

Hope he would do latin dance or something after he retires. I dance ballrroom, so it is my dream to see sexy Latin dance on the floor from Dai !!

 

[Violet Bliss]

Well, Dai can always do ice shows with emphasis on his fabulous dance steps and hot performances when he retires from competitions. He will be so loved and in demand.

I have felt that there is a value placed on trying those quads higher than scores and winning. It is a compelling honour worth the price or sacrifice if the goal is not achieved. It may be personal, but personal values are generally influenced and nurtured by society. What is interesting is that though it may be manly or macho for Dai to hold such belief, the top female skater, Mao, also seems compelled to do her 3A. That's why I thought there may be a more broad based value system that makes trying to achieve the most respected element in the sport extremely important, reflecting the skater's character, especially as a role model.

I remember how cute Dai was meeting, and being star struck by, Kumakawa. He said he almost fell in love! Maybe now he knows how his fans feel about him!

 

[Layfan]

Daisuke usually seems to be able to get himself together even after falling on the quad and deliver the rest of the program well. He gets the audience going and makes them forget about the fall. So from the perspective, I've always thought, yeah, go for it. It seems to give him confidence just to try it.

 

[mot]

Hi genki,

I am also an ex-pat, living on the other side of the Atlantic from you. I am always very envious that figure skating receives much more media coverage over on your side than here in the UK, which is a real pity considering the long successful history of figure skating in this country, and also a big contribution it had on the sport - well, up until a few decades ago. My love affair with figure skating started with T&D.

I would love Daisuke to try something like Bachelorette again - it was the programme which took my fascination with him to another level, as a skater who has something terribly unique. Never seen anything like it performed by a male single skater before or since.

SkateFiguring, perhaps I am going off the topic too much, but I thought I'd better clarify further...

I suspect Daisuke and Mao could somehow get away with their not-always-successful pursuit for the quad and the triple axel, as they still managed to get the results. Miki on the other hand suffered a massive media bashing when her failed attempt on the quad sal costed her higher placement at the Torino Olympics. (Poor soul - the media still wants to know the season after the season whether she would try the quad sal again though. Here goes again, the country's fascination with rotations!) At the same Olympics, Shizuka did not put in her triple-triple combination, which she was capable of, in her gold-medal-winning performance and was never really criticised for it - everyone was congratulatory on her beautiful, flawless performance and the GOLD MEDAL! (I must add here that it was very wise of her not to attempt it just for the sake of it, because it was clear in her own mind that her goal was to win the gold so that she could be on the advantageous starting point for her career as a pro skater, which she much preferred to be than a competitive one. And I LOVE and praise her to bits for it.)

Sad to admit, but if Daisuke had sunk again down in the 8th because of his failed quad attempt in 2010, like he did in 2006, I cannot tell whether his 'personal' attitude would have been equally praised or not. (Yes, 'he was the MAN!' was the sentiment widely shared by the Japanese population after the Vancouver Olys - because he won the bronze despite the failed quad, I believe.) I mean his decision to pursue the quad was, I presume, culturally-based / influenced as I have written previously, but whether it was socially accepted / praised or not could have been depending on the result. As a fan, I am glad he delivered the result.

 

[dlgpffps]

I want to see a podium with Patrick, Daisuke and Kozuka, all three clean (order doesn't really matter, but it would be nice to see a Japanese man crowned on home turf). I'd like to see Daisuke land that quad of his. I wouldn't mind if he won without it, but it would be a victorious (and vindicating) moment for him and his home fans if he won gold WITH that elusive quad. I'd also love to see Patrick replicate his AMAZING Nationals performance!

I'm not sure if Michael Brezina's going to be in this competition, but if he is I want him to be fantabulous. In my little world, he's already been crowned as a Sochi favorite because he combines clean and gorgeous jumps with personality on ice. I am in love with his toe jumps.

 

[treeloving]

DearMot,

I'm not Japanese so there would be no way I know about Japan more than you. But if the concern about quad is personal thing or media thing, could you pleae kindly explain why it seems that many top Japan skates put the difficult jump as their priority. For example, beside Dai, I remember Miki wanted to do do 3-3 at world 2009 but Morozov doesn't her to do it and told her to focus on performance instead. After she got bronze I remember Miki said something about how she use to only concern on jump or something like that.

This case seems to be the same with Yuzuru as it seems that he put quad as his priority and when the media did a documentary about him, they seems to choose the theme "quad"(but this may be just the work of media right?). Anyway, from his interview this season it seems that he focus a lot on quad. Also, top five men from Japan now attemp Quad.

Moreover, we often hear story on Mao and her 3A.

I know that every skaters like to have difficult content if they can do it as it will be their adventage but it seems for Japanese skater to attemp difficult jump,even they are not sure they can do it 100% or not, is very important thing.

By my experience associate with Japanese, compare to lazy person like me, they are very hard working toward their goal, determinded, and try to do the best they can. It may be a bit stereotype but can this help explain their concentate on the jump. I'm not trying to say it is a good thing or bad thing but it just my curiosity to learn more about different culture.

Sorry to be out of topic on what do you want to see at world.