CoP scoring of jumps from 2010 Olympics

[ImaginaryPogue]

As his program was scored, the two URs + the fall destroyed his chances at gold. That's why he came third.

I thought the quad was ur'ed in real time on TV, but as you said, jumps that end poorly are more likely to be called ur'ed as opposed to landed ones regardless of the amount of in-air rotation.

 

[Olympia]

As I recall, Plushy front-loaded his jumps, which cost him points. Considering the narrow margin by which he lost, one additional triple toward the end of the program would have tipped the balance in his favor. I remember people commenting that unlike Lysacek, Plushenko didn't make the CoP system work for him as much as he could have.

 

[janetfan]

Evan did one more triple than Plushy and with his clearly better spins that was more than enough to negate ONE quad jump in the LP.

Tim Goebel did three quad jumps back in his 2002 LP and he should have won Silver, atleast according to Plushy's own standard that clearly states "quad jump beats anything." :think:

I think the the judges were right to give Plushy the Silver back in 2002 just like they were generous to give it to him again in 2010.

I must agree with Blades and if I was judging Dai would have won the OGM.

mathman may not like this, but Lori did NOT do the choreo for Plushy or Dai in 2010. She did do it for Evan just as she did it for Patrick this season.

Something smells rotten when a big time choreographer/COACH is also the one telling judges how to score the CoP. :disagree:

Wouldn't it be nice if the pitching coach for the Phillies was advising baseball umpires how to call balls and strikes

How about a World Cup with Brazilian referees determining which fouls deserve a yellow or red card. Heck, half of Holland's team would have been off the field by halftime if soccer was a sleasy as figure skating.

Somehow the "sport" of figure skating sees nothing wrong when Lori is coaching judges about how to score the CoP. Most other sports would see a MAJOR CONFLICT OF INTEREST.

Is it really possible that last season a certain choerographer never mentioned to judges that Evan has a "better CoP program" than Plushy :think:

Judges are human and so are choreographer/coaches and skaters.

The playing field hardly seems level to me. It is the difference between pageants and real sport.

 

[Blades of Passion]

I think Goebel did deserve Silver in 2002. He had more technical content than Plushy and even though his basic skating ability was lesser, his program was a far better one. That was Goebel's best performance and probably the first time he truly gave a commendable performance. He was too un-annointed for the judges to comprehend the value of what he did, though. Notice how at the World Championships a month later, with an Olympic medal in hand, Goebel's presentation marks suddenly jumped up significantly even though it was a lesser performance than at the Olympics.

Back to what you said about the North American commentary and Evan, that's so true. I AWAYS thought Takahashi and Kozuka deserved Gold and Silver, but the day of the Olympics I thought Evan (barely) deserved to beat Plushenko in that head-to-head. After Plushenko's artistically terrible SP, I was very much against him and bought into the idea that Lysacek was the "more well rounded skater". I didn't even really prefer Lysacek's LP, and saw the two of them as pretty much even in that segment of the competition, but thought Lysacek should have been ahead overall because of the SP.

Watching again shortly therefore, it become apparent just how empty Lysacek's performance was and that I let the North American commentary and my own dislike of Plushenko's SP cloud my objective judgement of Plushenko's LP. He was certainly better than Lysacek. Much was made of his frontloaded jumps and yet Plushenko's jump layout was more spread throughout the program than Lyscaek's. He may have opened with 4 jumping passes in a row rather than 3, but then after that the program was more dedicated to performing than jumping. Lysacek, on the other hand, did 5 jumping passes in a row right after the half-way mark and did not really perform, except for a few moments at the end of the program...but he didn't even finish in time with the music. Throughout the whole program Plushenko's interpretation was better as well. Look at how Lysacek's circular footwork had nothing to do with the music (which was Plushenko's problem in the SP, where his movements mostly had nothing to do with the music). That circular footwork sequence of Lysacek's, by the way, received a Level 4 call which was NOT deserved.

 

[Bluebonnet]

I think Goebel did deserve Silver in 2002. He had more technical content than Plushy and even though his basic skating ability was lesser, his program was a far better one. That was Goebel's best performance and probably the first time he truly gave a commendable performance. He was too un-annointed for the judges to comprehend the value of what he did, though. Notice how at the World Championships a month later, with an Olympic medal in hand, Goebel's presentation marks suddenly jumped up significantly even though it was a lesser performance than at the Olympics.

Back to what you said about the North American commentary and Evan, that's so true. I AWAYS thought Takahashi and Kozuka deserved Gold and Silver, but the day of the Olympics I thought Evan (barely) deserved to beat Plushenko in that head-to-head. After Plushenko's artistically terrible SP, I was very much against him and bought into the idea that Lysacek was the "more well rounded skater". I didn't even really prefer Lysacek's LP, and saw the two of them as pretty much even in that segment of the competition, but thought Lysacek should have been ahead overall because of the SP.

Watching again shortly therefore, it become apparent just how empty Lysacek's performance was and that I let the North American commentary and my own dislike of Plushenko's SP cloud my objective judgement of Plushenko's LP. He was certainly better than Lysacek. Much was made of his frontloaded jumps and yet Plushenko's jump layout was more spread throughout the program than Lyscaek's. He may have opened with 4 jumping passes in a row rather than 3, but then after that the program was more dedicated to performing than jumping. Lysacek, on the other hand, did 5 jumping passes in a row right after the half-way mark and did not really perform, except for a few moments at the end of the program...but he didn't even finish in time with the music. Throughout the whole program Plushenko's interpretation was better as well. Look at how Lysacek's circular footwork had nothing to do with the music (which was Plushenko's problem in the SP, where his movements mostly had nothing to do with the music). That circular footwork sequence of Lysacek's, by the way, received a Level 4 call which was NOT deserved.

Wow, the evidence of the axis of the earth's changing. BOP, this earthquake of yours must be making GS change axis.

May I question some of your takes on Goebel? I've rewatched both Plushenko and Goebel's 2002 Olympics LPs.

Plushenko:
4T + 3T + 3L (step-out)
4T
3A half loop 3F
3A
3Lz
2A
2S (by mistake. supposed to be 3S)

Goebel:
3Lz
4S + 3T
3A + 2T
4T
3A (step-out)
4S
3F
3L

Even though, Goebel has had one more quad than Plushenko. I don't see big differences between these two skaters jumps. As you said, Goebel's basic skating abilities was lesser. Most importantly, Goebel is far, far behind in artistic abilities compare to the two big giants of that era - Yagudin and Plushenko. Goebel was definitely not in the same league with those two. Heaven and earth. There was absolutely no way that with that robotic, dry skating of Goebel's in SP and LP, Goebel would be able to get silver, even though Plushenko was in 4th in SP. There was only one person who could be able to beat Plushenko. That was Takashi Honda. But he bombed in LP. I'm so glad that the podium order was it was! Otherwise, it would have left far more heartbreaks for so many than what 2010 Olympics had done.

 

[Tonichelle]

I, too, thought Tim deserved to be higher. I've never gotten Plushenko's "artistry". Plush should have been lower in the SP - or at least, that's how I felt at the time. I haven't watched those skates in eons.

 

[gmyers]

Joe - Takahashi fell on his quad attempt. Other than that his LP was pretty near flawless as I recall. He definitely nailed the showmanship part of the program, though. Definitely the most fun to watch.

Aside from the top three, I don't remember the competition. All I really remember is being floored at 11pm when it was announced that Plushenko was second. My jaw dropped. I still feel Evan skated for second believing it was Evgeny's to win. And I really believed that so long as Plushenko stayed on his feet he'd win. Knew the quad would keep Takahashi from first, I think the right folks made the podium... maybe not in the right order though...

Lysacek was not skating for second. He won worlds with that layout and jumps and every second was programmed to win and it did.

Evan did one more triple than Plushy and with his clearly better spins that was more than enough to negate ONE quad jump in the LP.

Tim Goebel did three quad jumps back in his 2002 LP and he should have won Silver, atleast according to Plushy's own standard that clearly states "quad jump beats anything." :think:

I think the the judges were right to give Plushy the Silver back in 2002 just like they were generous to give it to him again in 2010.

I must agree with Blades and if I was judging Dai would have won the OGM.

mathman may not like this, but Lori did NOT do the choreo for Plushy or Dai in 2010. She did do it for Evan just as she did it for Patrick this season.

Something smells rotten when a big time choreographer/COACH is also the one telling judges how to score the CoP. :disagree:

Wouldn't it be nice if the pitching coach for the Phillies was advising baseball umpires how to call balls and strikes

How about a World Cup with Brazilian referees determining which fouls deserve a yellow or red card. Heck, half of Holland's team would have been off the field by halftime if soccer was a sleasy as figure skating.

Somehow the "sport" of figure skating sees nothing wrong when Lori is coaching judges about how to score the CoP. Most other sports would see a MAJOR CONFLICT OF INTEREST.

Is it really possible that last season a certain choerographer never mentioned to judges that Evan has a "better CoP program" than Plushy :think:

Judges are human and so are choreographer/coaches and skaters.

The playing field hardly seems level to me. It is the difference between pageants and real sport.

One quad jump is not as good as one more triple jump? And it was not just a quad it was a quad/triple. It is something about the COP system in place in 2010 and the whole media hype that meant doing a quad/triple was not really something that was good or impressive or moved a skater to a different level like it did under 6.0 judging. Would Lysacek have had those spins if he tried a quad or a quad triple????

Otherwise I agree why is a choreographer working for skaters saying what is good choreo for the system. They should be totally retired or forced to.

About the Costas Lysacek interview the whole thing was just horrible and grotesque. Seeing someone not engage in the discussion like Lysacek was not engaging in it. You win an Olympic gold medal without a quad when the previous three did and it doesn't mean anything??

 

[Tonichelle]

Lysacek was not skating for second. He won worlds with that layout and jumps and every second was programmed to win and it did.

I wasn't talking content or layout, I'm talking about his performance... he seemed to be holding his passion back a bit...

 

[gmyers]

Cup of China, Skate America, GPF, Olympics - all seemed the same to me! Even at the end of the 2010 Olympics FS you had the exact same thing as 2009 worlds FS. Choreographed fist pumps while spinning.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Lysacek was not skating for second. He won worlds with that layout and jumps and every second was programmed to win and it did.

Lysacek won Worlds in a weak field and that wouldn't have happened in the first place if Joubert had delivered. It was never expected that Lysacek without a Quad could ever beat another top skater (especially Plushenko) if those competitors skated well and included a Quad. He did indeed skate for second, just focusing on the elements to ensure the technical points, rather than trying to put passion into the performance to make a case for why he deserved Gold. He knew that a clean performance would almost surely give him at least 2nd because Takahashi hadn't delivered a great LP all season and everyone else was too far behind after the SP.

Thus, Lysacek hedged his bets on Plushenko not delivering. Which he didn't, in comparison to his normal standard, but then Lysacek didn't deliver either. Luckily for Lysacek, he played the game just right and the judges went with it. Plushenko established himself as a deteriorated skater, outside of the jumps, after his SP and thus he no longer had any wiggle room for mistakes. Lysacek, as reigning World Champ and the GPF Champ of the season and superior to Plushenko in the non-jump areas in the SP, became the viable alternative. It's sad that the sport is judged SO much on momentum and reputation, though, because in the LP it was actually the reverse. Plushenko's performance was an improvement over the SP and Lysacek's was a withered one.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Oh, sorry, I missed this:

May I question some of your takes on Goebel? I've rewatched both Plushenko and Goebel's 2002 Olympics LPs.

Plushenko:
4T + 3T + 3L (step-out)
4T
3A half loop 3F
3A
3Lz
2A
2S (by mistake. supposed to be 3S)

Goebel:
3Lz
4S + 3T
3A + 2T
4T
3A (step-out)
4S
3F
3L

Even though, Goebel has had one more quad than Plushenko. I don't see big differences between these two skaters jumps. As you said, Goebel's basic skating abilities was lesser. Most importantly, Goebel is far, far behind in artistic abilities compare to the two big giants of that era - Yagudin and Plushenko. Goebel was definitely not in the same league with those two. Heaven and earth.

The impressive thing about Goebel's jump layout is not just the 3 Quads, but how late in the program many of his jumping passes came. His second Triple Axel was 60% of the way through the program. His second Quad Salchow was 75% of the way through the program. He did a Triple Loop at the very end of his program, proceeded by a hydroblade. In comparison, Plushenko did all of his difficult jumping passes in the first 40% of the program. Goebel also only made 1 mistake in comparison to 2 from Plushenko.

I don't agree with Plushenko being superior on the second mark in this instance either. I think Plushenko's basic skating was better and I think in terms of raw performance ability he was better, but I feel that Goebel had a far better program. Goebel's movements reflected the nuances of the music better, there was more inbetween choreography, a better balance of elements throughout the performance, and the program as a whole called for a greater range of character and built to something more meaningful in the end. The whole was greater than the sum of the parts. In comparison, Plushenko's program was much more limited. He had wonderful dramatic posing, wonderful flow across the ice, and wonderful moments of explosive energy...but it didn't really come together. The best highlights were contained to the first half of the program only. If his footwork had been stronger then it would have been a somewhat different story but his footwork sequences were simplistic and lacked creativity.

Hence, I would have given Goebel a 5.9/5.8 and Plushenko a 5.8/5.8

 

[Olympia]

Lori Nichol choreography. The woman is a genius.

The only thing Tim always seemed to lack was good posture--his body just didn't work that way--and he gave even that his best effort. Maybe those narrow shoulders are what gave him such unearthly torque. He never even looked as if he was using any muscle power. He just hopped into the air and twirled like an electric drill.

 

[seniorita]

I, too, thought Tim deserved to be higher. I've never gotten Plushenko's "artistry". Plush should have been lower in the SP - or at least, that's how I felt at the time. I haven't watched those skates in eons.

if you get Lysacek's passion and artistry in that Lp, it is hard to get Evgeni's also For me it is bananas and watermelons. in Vancouver an almost Perfect Lysacek=60% detoriated old Plush + 1.2 points. Its all about maths

Blades what i liked in SLC is Plushenko's ultra speed and the come back from Sp, the risks he took for the axel combo and 4-3-3 and for a new program, it was first time ever skated and that in Olympics. After that he skated a great Carmen 724517817 times in Champions On Ice tour. Goebels was maybe the best I ve seen him, as Worlds 2003 also. But he is slow and has bad posture.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Lots of opining on Evgeni and Tim. IMO, I never thought either of them were the Ideal Figure Skater. Both of them were extraordinary jumpers. I picked Tim over Evgeni because his routine was better choreographed. Over and Out on this comparison.

 

[Bluebonnet]

To be honest if I had just won the gold medal in Olympics I would speak about flowers and bees to Mr Costas (does he have a greek root? his name is greek 100%) and let the silver and below competitors pulling their hair out

True. It was so easy to be generous and it's a common practice to go on high road after you won.

but I feel that Goebel had a far better program. Goebel's movements reflected the nuances of the music better, there was more inbetween choreography, a better balance of elements throughout the performance, and the program as a whole called for a greater range of character and built to something more meaningful in the end. The whole was greater than the sum of the parts. In comparison, Plushenko's program was much more limited. He had wonderful dramatic posing, wonderful flow across the ice, and wonderful moments of explosive energy...but it didn't really come together.

I feel like that you were portraying something else other than Goebel and Plushenko's 2002 Olympic LPs.:disapp:

I don't get it how Goebel's routine was better choreographed? To me, it was highly robotic and dull with rough connections between elements, and unexpressive arms and hands. Everytime when Goebel were preparing for a jump, his arms were dangling down like they were not his. Only Kevin Reynolds could be compared to Goebel. I'd take Lysacek's artistry and windmill arms anyday if I were to choose between Goebel and Lysacek.

 

[Tonichelle]

if you get Lysacek's passion and artistry in that Lp, it is hard to get Evgeni's also

I've never enjoyed a skater who stops and does a bunch of poses/footwork in one place... Plushenko did a lot of that back in the day. As does Elvis Stojko (who is the least creative skater out there, he makes Kevin Van Der Perren look like an artistic genius!). I've seen Evan skate in person several times. I don't prefer Evan 2010 to Evan 2005 or 2006 or even 2008... he did everything so frank carroll calculated. That formula finally paid off, but at what cost? Frank produces zombie skates, IMO. Yeah they're near perfect but they have no heart.

 

[Olympia]

You don't think Michelle shows heart? We'll have to disagree on that one.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I don't get it how Goebel's routine was better choreographed? To me, it was highly robotic and dull with rough connections between elements, and unexpressive arms and hands. Everytime when Goebel were preparing for a jump, his arms were dangling down like they were not his. Only Kevin Reynolds could be compared to Goebel. I'd take Lysacek's artistry and windmill arms anyday if I were to choose between Goebel and Lysacek.

I don't think his programme was ill constructed. The robot you've seen could be the skater and not the choreo. Not everyone skates an interesting choreographed program.

 

[gmyers]

Lysacek won Worlds in a weak field and that wouldn't have happened in the first place if Joubert had delivered. It was never expected that Lysacek without a Quad could ever beat another top skater (especially Plushenko) if those competitors skated well and included a Quad. He did indeed skate for second, just focusing on the elements to ensure the technical points, rather than trying to put passion into the performance to make a case for why he deserved Gold. He knew that a clean performance would almost surely give him at least 2nd because Takahashi hadn't delivered a great LP all season and everyone else was too far behind after the SP.

Thus, Lysacek hedged his bets on Plushenko not delivering. Which he didn't, in comparison to his normal standard, but then Lysacek didn't deliver either. Luckily for Lysacek, he played the game just right and the judges went with it. Plushenko established himself as a deteriorated skater, outside of the jumps, after his SP and thus he no longer had any wiggle room for mistakes. Lysacek, as reigning World Champ and the GPF Champ of the season and superior to Plushenko in the non-jump areas in the SP, became the viable alternative. It's sad that the sport is judged SO much on momentum and reputation, though, because in the LP it was actually the reverse. Plushenko's performance was an improvement over the SP and Lysacek's was a withered one.

World Champion Joubert was at 2009 worlds and it Chan had done really well at 4CC-it was a very tough competition. Just because Takahashi was out doesn't mean 2009 worlds was bad. No one was saying that Plushenko could land everything -which he did and not win! But all of that was wrong. Worlds 2008 and 2009 and the GPF in 2009 and 4CC in 2009 all were indicating that the programs that were winning were all triple programs with backloaded jumps and focus on fast spins and transitions. Only when Plushenko came back with his RELIABLE quad and 3A ability - reliable the key word- were all the performances that were winning tossed aside but what was winning won the Olympics in 2010. And I can't find anyone who thought that Plushenko could nail all his elements - which he did= and lose. Worlds 2009 was not weak at all. And its possible that had Plushenko or Takahashi been there they would have lost to Lysacek there too as they did in Vancouver with the exact same program- as Lysacek did not change anything about his program from 2008-2009 to 2009-2010 jump wise layout wise.

 

[janetfan]

World Champion Joubert was at 2009 worlds and it Chan had done really well at 4CC-it was a very tough competition. Just because Takahashi was out doesn't mean 2009 worlds was bad. No one was saying that Plushenko could land everything -which he did and not win! But all of that was wrong. Worlds 2008 and 2009 and the GPF in 2009 and 4CC in 2009 all were indicating that the programs that were winning were all triple programs with backloaded jumps and focus on fast spins and transitions. Only when Plushenko came back with his RELIABLE quad and 3A ability - reliable the key word- were all the performances that were winning tossed aside but what was winning won the Olympics in 2010. And I can't find anyone who thought that Plushenko could nail all his elements - which he did= and lose. Worlds 2009 was not weak at all. And its possible that had Plushenko or Takahashi been there they would have lost to Lysacek there too as they did in Vancouver with the exact same program- as Lysacek did not change anything about his program from 2008-2009 to 2009-2010 jump wise layout wise.

Why would Evan change? He won '09 Worlds, then the GPF and then the Olympic Gold Medal.
Anyone can get lucky once, but when you win three times in a row you are not lucky but the acknowledged King of your sport.

Evan is the current King of Men's figure skating. The CoP coronated King Evan and he will hold that title until 2014.

Enjoy, enjoy.