South Korean federation's complaint to the ISU about judging

[pec0]

We read Japanese version of Korean major newpapers articles because they publish degital version on Internet. In thesedays Japanese people have got used to the peculiar pattern of thoughts in them. However I should not have post it if it does not deal with figure skating.

Judges can modify grade of execution using -3 to +3 for each element.
Regarding that, I read Korean paper in Internet reporting Asada's FS like this: "because Asada repeated error after error and lots of error, she could not exceed world record of Yuna Kim but weirdly won 1st place. On the other hand Pak So Yon of Korea executed her simple program beautifully and won 9th."
When I saw Asada's detailed result sheet, I understood what that Korean paper wanted to say.

 

[karne]

The main point I think here is that the 60 days have expired. Even if the argument was about the conflict of interest on the panel, the time has expired, because the judging panels were set after the Nebelhorn Trophy all the way back in September!

 

[gotoschool]

I don't

 

[gotoschool]

We read Japanese version of Korean major newpapers articles because they publish degital version on Internet. In thesedays Japanese people have got used to the peculiar pattern of thoughts in them. However I should not have post it if it does not deal with figure skating.

Judges can modify grade of execution using -3 to +3 for each element.
Regarding that, I read Korean paper in Internet reporting Asada's FS like this: "because Asada repeated error after error and lots of error, she could not exceed world record of Yuna Kim but weirdly won 1st place. On the other hand Pak So Yon of Korea executed her simple program beautifully and won 9th."
When I saw Asada's detailed result sheet, I understood what that Korean paper wanted to say.

In reference to the newspaper article you have quoted, I first want to say I agree that Park So Yon skated wonderfully and that she deserved a couple of more PCS points. In regards to the forum topic, I also believe the skaters at the Olympics, especially the top 6 from Yuna Kim (who should have gotten the gold) to Mao Asada (who was a strong contender for bronze), deserved to be re-scored with a more objective judging panel, via video tape if necessary. Though it may sound absurd, it would be more accurate than the results we presently have.
But, the idea of thinking the ISU will conduct some kind of objective inquiry into its own corruption is a little like letting a band of masked, anonymous bank robbers investigate suspects for its own bank heist: the only difference being that some of the judges are most probably innocent.

Back to the newspaper article and the malicious newspaper attack on Mao Asada. I don't know where you stand on the issue, but after the absurdity of Sochi, I decided that I would look at the performances themselves and be my own judge, instead of focusing on suspect result sheets. Many forum posters have criticized Asada's excessively harsh tech calls, and I certainly haven't found anyone who believes that Mao didn't deserve to win. So "the error after error" and "weirdly won 1st place" quotes from the newspaper are disingenuous insults to the high quality of her performances. Eurosport commentators commented on her "clean as a whistle" triple axel and clean opening triple triple; and Pluschenko (a Russian no less who genuinely respects great skating) complimented her by tweeting, " Congratulation to 3 times world champion Mao Asada 2 beautiful 3A, I am so proud of you."

On the contrary, it seems to me that the same thing happened to Asada in Japan as in Sochi. Mao was low-balled (in Sochi combination tech score and PCS and at Worlds only tech) in order to give Lipnitskaya a chance - though admittedly an extremely small one at Worlds- to catch her. The scheme worked at Sochi. Asada losing 11 points in tech deductions (from 76 to 65) for a generally clean LP compared to merely 4 points for Julia with a fall sounds, and more importantly looks, completely unreasonable based on the performances, especially since Asada received no tech deductions for her stellar SP and a new record of 72.6 PCS in her LP. So, are we to buy that she suddenly became an awful tech skater in two day's time with such a wonderful PCS score? Murakami and Suzuki were also hammered overly hard in Tech and PCS scores. Furthermore, the tech and judging panels for both events had no Japanese, Koreans or Chinese representatives, and three from former Soviet countries- Estonia, Lithuania and Ukraine, which have close ties to Russia, so this fact just makes Asada's victory all the more impressive.

In my opinion, the South Koreans, Japanese and Chinese should put their differences aside and work together in the ISU to form a stronger coalition that demands consistent and proportional representation on judging and tech panels. I believe South Korea has already taken the right first step by calling for only one of the former Soviet countries or Russia to be represented as judges or tech panel members for any given SP or LP. If these steps are not taken, the future will be bleak for a long time for any up and coming Asian skater. As it stands now with Kim retired, a slightly underscored Asada is the only Asian who can still battle her way for gold against an inflated Lipnitskaya, Sotnikova and potentially inflated Gold. But, even Mao is 50 / 50 on retirement.

To put the ongoing Lipnitskaya inflation into perspective for Kim fans, Lipnitskaya’s score in the 2014 Worlds with a fall at 15 years old is the same as Kim’s world record score in the 2009 World Championships at 18 years old, 207 points!!!! In my opinion at Worlds, Mao wins by almost 10 points more, Lipnitskaya still deserved silver at a lower score, but it should have been a real battle between a less inflated Kostner, Anna and a slightly higher Suzuki for bronze- and Gold falling just slightly behind. Judging is better than Sochi, but the judging and tech composition still messes with the results.

 

[bara1968]

I laughed hard after I checked actual pts from Soyoun. There are more than 10 elements in lP yet she got 7 pts GOE in total

Meaning, less than 0.7 positive GOE for each element in average, while she was CLEAN. You call this fraud while she actually had gorgeous, effortless jumps?

She did not underrotate any of her jumps - so no UR
She does not have flutz or lip - so no edge call

If I judge her, I would give her more GOE and PCS she actually got! OMG OMG OMG!!

She's like 5th in TES with clean skate, I do not see any fraud here. Well, actually I think this whole Soyoun-Korea-Japan argument is total nonsense.

 

[seabm7]

The main point I think here is that the 60 days have expired. Even if the argument was about the conflict of interest on the panel, the time has expired, because the judging panels were set after the Nebelhorn Trophy all the way back in September!

That is not correct. IIRC, what was decided at that time was a pool of judges, not the actual panel. For example, the judge panel for the free program was decided by a selection process done after the short program.

 

[usethis2]

Why is Mao and Park are even in discussion here. lol. The two are not comparable in any sense of the world.

Actually, on a second thought, you could say What Mao is to Park is what Yuna is to Adelina. Then it makes sense to me but I am still not sure what their relevance is here. (?)

 

[OS]

Of all things, what kind of self defeating argument is it to start to complain about SoYoun's GOEs on this thread? Especially when PCS is traditionally more easy to hold someone up. The girl skated clean as a whistle in Japan in what by many considered as a great performance. If she is not Korean, will these complaint happen? It is really sad how nationalistic crap continue to disturb these boards with such utter nonsense.

Last worlds, 2013WC

http://www.isuresults.com/results/wc2014/wc2014_Ladies_FS_Scores.pdf

Zijun skated 7 triples, and she got a total of 127.54, edge call on her lutz, and she got 8.81 GOEs. Her PCS was 58.13. She ranked 4th in FS.
Liza skated 6 triples, negative GOEs on 2 elements, GOE 5.57. Her PCS was 57.24. She ranked 8th in FS.
Adelina skated 6 triples on her program, edge call on her 3Lz, < on both 3Ts, 3F+SEQ, < 2A. She still managed to get 2.94 points in GOEs. Her PCS was 60.63 She ranked 9th in FS.


This year 2014 WC
http://www.isuresults.com/results/wc2014/wc2014_Ladies_FS_Scores.pdf

SoYoun skated clean 6 triples consist of 3 lz, 2A3T, no negative GOEs except on -0.09 on her fly sit spin, A nice musical interpretation performance (I prefer the old version music), she received 7.49 GOEs, PCS 55.30. Total score of 119.39. Ranked 9th in the FS. 9th overall, same ranking as Adelina at her last worlds championship.
Yulia has been finally been called on her 2 x 3flutz, << on her 3S, and she received 6.66 in GOEs. Her PCS was 68.39, 13.09 more than SoYoun.
Anna had an edge call on her 3F, got 6.6 GOE. Her PCS was 64.05, 8.75 PCS than SoYoun.
Gracie (generic Frank US ladies champion choreography) had an edge call her on her 3F, << on 2A, landed 1A, -GOE on 3loop. Her still received 6.06 on her GOEs, Her PCS was 66.69, PCS 13.39 more than SoYoun.

Actually, I thought the ladies mark in all aspects were tightened after Kostner's FS, coincidence or intentional? Consider how human minds work, let's just leave it to that.
If anything I thought SoYoun was under marked, but that is fine. I rather have her working hard on getting these marks like how all skaters should rather than gifted based on federation politics.

Especially considering at the Sochi Olympics 2014

http://www.isuresults.com/results/owg2014/owg14_Ladies_FS_Scores.pdf

Adelina skated cheated 7 triples program with chronic flutz and her < 3T all over looked (appears on all her previous protocols), step out on her combination, unjustified rise in step sequence levels 4 (called level 2 and 3 all this season), she received massive 14.11 GOEs there. Her PCS was 74.41, an incredible 19.11 than SoYoun here. THESE they have no problems with.

Does having 1 less triple, not having home advantage, skating for a no powered federation justify these 30.56 score difference in their FS?
FYI, the BV of their LP is only 4.83 apart. The BV of their SP is exactly the same at 30.43 EVEN Adelina did the 3T3T vs SoYoun's 3S3T.

How disturbing. The mind boggles. Seems mathematically something is wrong.

 

[pec0]

I'm starting to wonder what is the meaning of each points, -3, -2, -1, 0, +1, +2, +3.
It occurs to me that if it is used like(hypothetically) rotation is cleared according to rule book and landing is not two footed then GOE is zero, if difficult entry such as less number of backcross to gain speed, then +1 etc. If such criteria exists so everyone understand reasoning of GOE and challengers will be rewarded but never discouraged by deduction, then maybe I can understand.
You are mentioning only 'clean' thing it is irrelevant or women's single category may well remove age condition and junior and senior can compete at the same event, no problem. Easier, lovelier, simpler is what you want, right?
Someone said EuroSports commentator said So Yon was parfect therefore she deserved top GOE? is irrelevant because since So yon did not skate at last , the commentator could not compare her execution with all the other ladies.

 

[OS]

I'm starting to wonder what is the meaning of each points, -3, -2, -1, 0, +1, +2, +3.
It occurs to me that if it is used like(hypothetically) rotation is cleared according to rule book and landing is not two footed then GOE is zero, if difficult entry such as less number of backcross to gain speed, then +1 etc. If such criteria exists so everyone understand reasoning of GOE and challengers will be rewarded but never discouraged by deduction, then maybe I can understand.
You are mentioning only 'clean' thing it is irrelevant or women's single category may well remove age condition and junior and senior can compete at the same event, no problem. Easier, lovelier, simpler is what you want, right?
Someone said EuroSports commentator said So Yon was parfect therefore she deserved top GOE? is irrelevant because since So yon did not skate at last , the commentator could not compare her execution with all the other ladies.

But the judges are forced to compare everyone else's execution to So Youn after. I thought So Youn's mark had a Yuna effect on the field wide score actually, like when Yuna had 69 for going clean in her SP at worlds last year (weird 3F e aside), and everyone's mark has been forced to be mark conservatively after her... except Kostner's PCS of course despite her massive 3/3 error! Ha! Just like I anticipated there are likely going to be an inflation in group 5 in the SP with a bunch of 70s in the short program considering Mao is to skate 1st and likely to do well skating at home. If Carolina, the first to skate in the final group of FS had skated much better, I bet we will see inflation for everyone instead of the conservative marking everyone got in an effort to ensure Caro still has a chance to podium on her final competition.

For me skating clean is really under marked in figure skating. Especially presentation should be important in this sport where it concerns aesthetics. Technically anything as complex and intricate with that much margins for error (precision, control, accuracy, difficulty etc) should really be better awarded. Even there's no such thing in the official rule that says there should be a clean bonus, but from my observation from marking in the past, judges do try to make up for it in PCS to their discretion.

 

[usethis2]

But the judges are forced to compare everyone else's execution after So Youn. I thought So Youn's mark had a Yuna effect on the field wide score actually, like when Yuna had 69 for going clean in her SP at worlds last year (weird 3F e aside), and everyone's mark has been forced to be mark conservatively after her... except Kostner's PCS of course despite her massive 3/3 error! Ha!

Which makes the judge swap after the SP in Sochi all the more "interesting." Yuna was grossly undermarked for her SP, then by way of convenient accident the next day judges from former Soviet Union replace 4 judges from the day before..

Stars align, indeed.. NOT

 

[Rubirosa]

That is not correct. IIRC, what was decided at that time was a pool of judges, not the actual panel. For example, the judge panel for the free program was decided by a selection process done after the short program.

You say Koreans are against Russia on panel? That is what got known by drawing before LP: Russia will be on panel. Who should be on panel? Only Korea and USA? When did Koreans find out the list of ISU members, with Japan, Russia, and potentially judges from these countries? 60 days ago, really? You are talking about wife of president? When did they find out that she is the wife, 60 days ago? They themselves sent their official in Vacouver to be a judge. I know, know. Conflict of interest doesn't matter if it's in favor of Yuna.

There is no facts that Koreans found out 60 days ago. Events? Yes, there is one. Hugging. Are they going to file it? Good luck with that.

 

[pec0]

For me skating clean is really under marked in figure skating. Especially presentation should be important in this sport where it concerns aesthetics. Technically anything as complex and intricate with that much margins for error (precision, control, accuracy, difficulty etc) should really be better awarded. Even there's no such thing in the official rule that says there should be a clean bonus, but from my observation from marking in the past, judges do try to make up for it in PCS to their discretion.

Regarding aesthetics:
I think the recording broadcasted has big problem. If camera focus on aesthetics, it will show mainly face for GG, propotion as a whole for Kostner and Li, and Lip and so on.. This will never show the ice coverage, speed, difficulty precision, most important thing is foot. And technique should come before aesthetics because it is sports.
Or do you think senior men category should accept program including no jump but good dance just swinging arms nicely while back crossing and clean? Is that sports? And Koreans believe Kim is most beautiful now. Russians believe Sotnikova is. I think Kim's spin is ugly and Sotnikova's is much better. Figure skate is sports. World record should not be created by judge's likes and dislikes and no reason.
Regarding error, I think it should be judged equally for all contenders. I think specific skater(s) are passed under rotation and specific skater(s) are often wrongly URed. It is because judges enjoy status of anonymity.

 

[AliceInWonderland]

In reference to the newspaper article you have quoted, I first want to say I agree that Park So Yon skated wonderfully and that she deserved a couple of more PCS points. In regards to the forum topic, I also believe the skaters at the Olympics, especially the top 6 from Yuna Kim (who should have gotten the gold) to Mao Asada (who was a strong contender for bronze), deserved to be re-scored with a more objective judging panel, via video tape if necessary. Though it may sound absurd, it would be more accurate than the results we presently have.
But, the idea of thinking the ISU will conduct some kind of objective inquiry into its own corruption is a little like letting a band of masked, anonymous bank robbers investigate suspects for its own bank heist: the only difference being that some of the judges are most probably innocent.

Back to the newspaper article and the malicious newspaper attack on Mao Asada. I don't know where you stand on the issue, but after the absurdity of Sochi, I decided that I would look at the performances themselves and be my own judge, instead of focusing on suspect result sheets. Many forum posters have criticized Asada's excessively harsh tech calls, and I certainly haven't found anyone who believes that Mao didn't deserve to win. So "the error after error" and "weirdly won 1st place" quotes from the newspaper are disingenuous insults to the high quality of her performances. Eurosport commentators commented on her "clean as a whistle" triple axel and clean opening triple triple; and Pluschenko (a Russian no less who genuinely respects great skating) complimented her by tweeting, " Congratulation to 3 times world champion Mao Asada 2 beautiful 3A, I am so proud of you."

On the contrary, it seems to me that the same thing happened to Asada in Japan as in Sochi. Mao was low-balled (in Sochi combination tech score and PCS and at Worlds only tech) in order to give Lipnitskaya a chance - though admittedly an extremely small one at Worlds- to catch her. The scheme worked at Sochi. Asada losing 11 points in tech deductions (from 76 to 65) for a generally clean LP compared to merely 4 points for Julia with a fall sounds, and more importantly looks, completely unreasonable based on the performances, especially since Asada received no tech deductions for her stellar SP and a new record of 72.6 PCS in her LP. So, are we to buy that she suddenly became an awful tech skater in two day's time with such a wonderful PCS score? Murakami and Suzuki were also hammered overly hard in Tech and PCS scores. Furthermore, the tech and judging panels for both events had no Japanese, Koreans or Chinese representatives, and three from former Soviet countries- Estonia, Lithuania and Ukraine, which have close ties to Russia, so this fact just makes Asada's victory all the more impressive.

In my opinion, the South Koreans, Japanese and Chinese should put their differences aside and work together in the ISU to form a stronger coalition that demands consistent and proportional representation on judging and tech panels. I believe South Korea has already taken the right first step by calling for only one of the former Soviet countries or Russia to be represented as judges or tech panel members for any given SP or LP. If these steps are not taken, the future will be bleak for a long time for any up and coming Asian skater. As it stands now with Kim retired, a slightly underscored Asada is the only Asian who can still battle her way for gold against an inflated Lipnitskaya, Sotnikova and potentially inflated Gold. But, even Mao is 50 / 50 on retirement.

To put the ongoing Lipnitskaya inflation into perspective for Kim fans, Lipnitskaya’s score in the 2014 Worlds with a fall at 15 years old is the same as Kim’s world record score in the 2009 World Championships at 18 years old, 207 points!!!! In my opinion at Worlds, Mao wins by almost 10 points more, Lipnitskaya still deserved silver at a lower score, but it should have been a real battle between a less inflated Kostner, Anna and a slightly higher Suzuki for bronze- and Gold falling just slightly behind. Judging is better than Sochi, but the judging and tech composition still messes with the results.

I think you need to take your own advice and go to school. Ex-Soviet countries? Seriously? Estonia is now an EU member and Ukraine and Russia aren't exactly besties either. As for Asians "putting apart their differences" and coming together to "battle unfairness", this is what I have to say to you: Do you know anything about history? Apparently not. China, Japan, and South Korea are 3 completely different countries with different cultures and different people. The worlds' judging was completely unbiased. The only debatable score was Caro's LP score. And even that wasn't very debatable. Yulia's score was 100% deserved, and of course it was simmilar to Kim's 2009 score! FS has progressed and changed since 2009 and the way scores are handed out has changed too.

 

[pec0]

In reference to the newspaper article you have quoted, I first want to say I agree that Park So Yon skated wonderfully and that she deserved a couple of more PCS points.

I'm not saying Pak So Yon 's skated bad. I doubt you watch performance of THE OTHER LADIES PERFORMANCE performance as carefully as Pak. And your 'clean' thing is less inportant than difficulty of elements shown by BV because it is sports. If program is easier, ending clean is easier. To weigh 'clean' higher than technical elements difficulty, the system should be changed so that all contenders skate the same program including the same elements and choreo.
Is it correct that 90% of words put in Korean newspaper articles on World 2014 are on Asada's home advantage and her hopeless habit of commiting errors which were obviously covered again by Japanese sponsors, 5% Pak, 5% Korean boy skater, 0% for the other participants? Are Korean TV network doing the same? And are they doing that for Sochi Olympic and Sotnikova?

 

[pec0]

Im sorry it was to gotoschool and not to Alice

 

[AliceInWonderland]

Im sorry it was to gotoschool and not to Alice

I was looking at that and scratching my head haha.

 

[jkun]

I think you need to take your own advice and go to school. Ex-Soviet countries? Seriously? Estonia is now an EU member and Ukraine and Russia aren't exactly besties either. As for Asians "putting apart their differences" and coming together to "battle unfairness", this is what I have to say to you: Do you know anything about history? Apparently not. China, Japan, and South Korea are 3 completely different countries with different cultures and different people. The worlds' judging was completely unbiased. The only debatable score was Caro's LP score. And even that wasn't very debatable. Yulia's score was 100% deserved, and of course it was simmilar to Kim's 2009 score! FS has progressed and changed since 2009 and the way scores are handed out has changed too.

The ways scores are handed out... GOE has gotten lower and there is no spiral sequence. Shouldn't that lower people's scores then? Also, what is the point of an "objective" numerical score, if scores are going to depend on the times or the mood. It's just a fact that there has been a meteoric rise in PCS and GOE (in terms of +1,+2,+3). In the last quad, +3s were VERY rare. Now +3s are EVERYWHERE and it is not because skaters are jumping a whole lot better.

 

[AliceInWonderland]

The ways scores are handed out... GOE has gotten lower and there is no spiral sequence. Shouldn't that lower people's scores then? Also, what is the point of an "objective" numerical score, if scores are going to depend on the times or the mood. It's just a fact that there has been a meteoric rise in PCS and GOE (in terms of +1,+2,+3). In the last quad, +3s were VERY rare. Now +3s are EVERYWHERE and it is not because skaters are jumping a whole lot better.

Look, I phrased that horribly, I'm sorry. I meant that Mao's world record was 100% deserved (compared to Yuna's 2010 SP), and based on Mao's scores, Yulia's were fair. The way PCS is scored has gone wack though, I agree on that point. However, at worlds, the judging was fair IMO.

 

[gotoschool]

h