South Korean federation's complaint to the ISU about judging

[Ophelia]

Brian Orser, Yuna's ex coach, said he only watched ladies event through TV so he couldn't say anything for sure about the scores. But he thought Caro should have been the winner overall. I see it's so subjective about this matter. But he also think Yuna and Caro should have been scored higher.

Whoa. I know David Wilson gave a statement, but when did Brian Orser speak out about the ladies' results?

 

[Meoima]

No, but the point stands that disagreeing with the Olympic results does not automatically make someone a Yuna uber.

I also disagree with the score at Olympic. I am just annoyed by some people who ask for justice only because of their idol. Having said that, I defend Yuna several times already. Sorry for misunderstanding you.

 

[[email protected]]

I think the only real outcome of this protest is to keep up the heat here for yet another hundred or thousand posts. Otherwise it would be dead by now. The true scandal would be if it had any impact whatsoever. Because there are no hard proofs of intentional wrongdoing and no violations of any codes.

The truly outstanding twist would be should Yuna decide to reemerge like Phoenix just before the Olympics. She will be only 27 then, why not? Then the question is what minimum tech difficulty will be enough to guarantee her gold? I think that unless key competitors start to fall, she will need at least 7 triples (I know that 8 is out of question right now but it may change or quads may appear) and a couple of powerful combos. I mean that Sochi routine will be not enough even in Korea.

 

[pangtongfan]

I think the only real outcome of this protest is to keep up the heat here for yet another hundred or thousand posts. Otherwise it would be dead by now. The true scandal would be if it had any impact whatsoever. Because there are no hard proofs of intentional wrongdoing and no violations of any codes.

The truly outstanding twist would be should Yuna decide to reemerge like Phoenix just before the Olympics. She will be only 27 then, why not? Then the question is what minimum tech difficulty will be enough to guarantee her gold? I think that unless key competitors start to fall, she will need at least 7 triples (I know that 8 is out of question right now but it may change or quads may appear) and a couple of powerful combos. I mean that Sochi routine will be not enough even in Korea.

I actually do agree a 2nd gold or any medal changes would be stupid. I never like that happening even in the case of the worst judging decisions. I hated Sale & Pelletier's 2nd time gold medal despite that on that particular night they were royally screwed (but nobody said a thing when B&S were royally screwed in favor of the often overrated and overmarked S&P atleast 3 times the 2 years before that, but that is another topic).
I think that should NEVER be the solution.

In this case I think the entire figure skating judging in Sochi though was a joke and obviously corrupted by outside influences. It goes far beyond Sotnikova vs Kim vs Kostner vs Asada, and in fact far beyond the ladies event. The other events were all terribly scored and gave the impression of being fixed. It was just fortunate the performances panned out in such a way there wasnt a majorly obviously wrong result as far as the medals like there was in the ladies before the ladies event. In fact I think it was a fluke and a huge unlikely stroke of luck that did not occur. A large investigation should be done in all that went on in Sochi, regarding the judging of all the events, right up to starting from the Team Event which despite the right medals being given out to each country, also had some very questionable, and at times downright blatantly wrong scoring across all the programs. Of course as the ISU are probably at the core of this corruption they would never do this. It would be like investigating themselves.

 

[cuon_alpinus]

So, it is ok up the pcs for Yuna, Mao and Joannie in just one season, but not for Adelina. Very convenient.

Let's just assume that it's okay for the scores to be inflated. But in Sochi, Yuna's scores weren't inflated like many other skaters. Don't you find this unfair?

Except Yu Na Kim was not overscored in Vancouver. And a clean Mao would not have deserved to beat Kim in Vancouver.

Yu Na has never won an event or medal in her whole career she didnt clearly deserve. While she has been blindly robed of atlast 2 world or olympic titles (or atleast was clearly better than the winner)- 2011 worlds and 2014 Olympics, and arguably (although not without dispute) robbed of another at the 2008 worlds. How can a skater who clearly should have 5 or 6 world or Olympic titles but only have 3, and blew the field away in all 3 she won indicating that is the only way the judges ever let her win, be an overmarked skater. If anything she is probably one of the most wuzrobbed by the judges skaters in history. Which is to be expected being a star from a puny skating country with no money, a tiny federation, and no political power at all. I am not even a Yu Na fan either, and unlike practically everyone else dont even consider her a top 5 skater all time (which many have gotten on me for) It clear the complete opposite is true, and as I said a skater coming from one of the skating poorest federations could ever possibly be anything but undervalued by judges. Anyone who follows the sport and actually knows it history would know this.

You have my words. I think the biggest flaw of Yuna Kim is that she's Korean LOL. If she was Russian, Japanese, or American... The rest is up to you.

 

[Ophelia]

I think the only real outcome of this protest is to keep up the heat here for yet another hundred or thousand posts. Otherwise it would be dead by now. The true scandal would be if it had any impact whatsoever. Because there are no hard proofs of intentional wrongdoing and no violations of any codes.

The truly outstanding twist would be should Yuna decide to reemerge like Phoenix just before the Olympics. She will be only 27 then, why not? Then the question is what minimum tech difficulty will be enough to guarantee her gold? I think that unless key competitors start to fall, she will need at least 7 triples (I know that 8 is out of question right now but it may change or quads may appear) and a couple of powerful combos. I mean that Sochi routine will be not enough even in Korea.

Or the impact of this protest is to make people think hard about the strengths and weaknesses of the current judging system, and to evaluate whether certain aspects should be changed (ex: anonymous judging).

Also, don't you launch a investigation when there is suspicion of wrongdoing in order to FIND evidence?

 

[[email protected]]

You have my words. I think the biggest flaw of Yuna Kim is that she's Korean LOL. If she was Russian, Japanese, or American... The rest is up to you.

Nation is not a good indicator. We believe that often Russia is treated unfairly in various sports. There was a doping scandal in SLC 2002. They found something in the blood of one of our biathlon skiers and announced that 5 minutes before the relay start. It was impossible to replace the skier and the whole team was disqualified although they knew doping test results well in advance. At the same time we have the whole Norvegian team who have had asthma or "asthma" for many years so that they consume some stuff all the time. We have Magdalena Noyner who retired in her prime (25 years old) winning all the starts just 2 years before Sochi, etc.

Well, the USA is the exception in terms of power. Not only does it control the doping thing. I mean it decides when and whom to announce. Everybody "knew" that Armstrong showed superhuman results winning one Tour de France after another. Especially after he overcame sort of a terminal illness. It took many years before he was revealed. How many "American heroes" have not been revealed yet? It could be only USA in SLC who simply took the gold medal from a Korean short-track skater (poor poor Korea) on a very dubious accusation. If the popularity of that guy had been at the similar level to Yuna's, the outcry would have been even greater than now. It was just the outrageous cynicism. But he was just another short-track skater and the power to deal with was the mighty USA not a 70-year old Lakernik.

I treat the long life of this particular topic as a forced entertainment during the off-season. There were scandals - there will be scandals. Very soon this particular one will die down together with multiple other old stories.

 

[Ophelia]

@samkrut: I don't understand what you're responding to. Cuon_alpinu's original post meant that if Yuna Kim was Russian, Japanese, or American, the level of outcry her skating federation would've raised would be much bigger than what we're seeing now, and there would be more outrage.

 

[Meoima]

@samkrut: I don't understand what you're responding to. Cuon_alpinu's original post meant that if Yuna Kim was Russian, Japanese, or American, the level of outcry her skating federation would've raised would be much bigger than what we're seeing now, and there would be more outrage.

Personally I don't think Asian feds have as much power as Russian, Canada or American fed. Daisuke lost the gold in 2012 to PChan who fell in the free yet I didn't see any outcry from JFS.
Then again, even Russian fed couldn't demand another gold for Plushy in 2010. :think:

 

[[email protected]]

@samkrut: I don't understand what you're responding to. Cuon_alpinu's original post meant that if Yuna Kim was Russian, Japanese, or American, the level of outcry her skating federation would've raised would be much bigger than what we're seeing now, and there would be more outrage.

And I gave you one example of our biathlon team in which 3 out 4 had no doping problems and we had a replacement. Yet due to a set up the team was disqualified. Yes, it was some fruitless noise for a day or two. We had Alexey Nemov who himself had to pacify a non Russian crowd who believed that an American gymnast just robbed him, etc. etc. We believe that the Pluschenko vs. Lysacek case was not less controversial than this one. You might give many reasons that they are very very different, but this is a battle of opinions. Russia was very depressed. Did we collect millions of signatures or pursue protests for months after Vancouver? No - people here are used to the fact that depending on the point of view life may seem very unfair. And it seems often very unfair to the Russians.

 

[Ophelia]

1) You're comparing apples to oranges. We're discussing skating federations here, and biathlons and gymnastics don't belong in the same category. Idk how those federations function, and which nations have strong federations and what not.

2) Russians might be accustomed to corruption and have resigned themselves to it, but that doesn't mean everyone else should should adopt the Russian attitude and sigh and move on when they feel something is unfair. Also, the petition had a significant number of signatures that didn't originate from South Korea.

 

[pangtongfan]

Nation is not a good indicator. We believe that often Russia is treated unfairly in various sports. There was a doping scandal in SLC 2002. They found something in the blood of one of our biathlon skiers and announced that 5 minutes before the relay start. It was impossible to replace the skier and the whole team was disqualified although they knew doping test results well in advance.

It was not a biathlete, it was the cross country skiier Larissa Lazutina. And given that one of her teammates who was also going to be on that relay, Olga Danilova, was also later found to have positive doping tests from those Games and had all her medals and results stripped (as were Lazutina's who was later round to be ineligible to even be at the Games as she had positive tests from a meet before the Games), it is a good thing the Russians could not ski. It is not even certain they had enough skiiers to have fielded a team that wouldnt have been disqualified after.

You cannot judge Neuner because she chooses to retire. Maybe she felt she had achieved all her goals and did not want to push for another 2 years just for the Olympics, especialy already having multiple olympic golds and medals from Vancouver. Not every athletes whole life plan revolves around the Olympics.

I do think Marit Bjoergen is an enormous doper, and worse than any Soviet skiier in history. Unfortunately or fortunately for her she must have the most genius doctors in the world as she has gotten away with it for years.

We believe that the Pluschenko vs. Lysacek case was not less controversial than this one.

Then all those of you who "think" that need to get off your crackpipe. I actually like Plushenko and am one of his biggest defenders on these boards, but he in no way deserved a gold medal for that weak and empty routine which was nothing but jumps, and even landed most of his jumps shakily and with low quality. Lysacek is one of the weakest Olympic champions in history, just like Sotnikova is, but unlike her he actually did earn it that night (or atleast above Plushenko). Plushenko was in fact grossly overscored, especialy in PCS, the same PCS as Lysacek for that empty transitionless and shaky program, no.

The difference in this is it a controversy around the world, especialy the figure skating world, where the rest of the world just laughs at Russia when it comes to Plushenko and Lysacek.

 

[cuon_alpinus]

Let me just pull up what Tarasova said about South Korea's complaint.

Russian news about KOC protest. They are saying that Adelina had only ONE mistake in her free skate. She did a mistake but the difficulty of her program was higher then from Korean skater. Also Tarasova (Coach): " Olympic games are free of manipulation, never had, never will have. And they (Koreans) better watch skate of their own skater which is definitely extraordinary athlete but on last Olympic games (2010) I thought she got too high scores compare to Mao Asada (PS She is Mao's choreographer). And by the second score Mao should been ahead of Yuna. It was impossible to compete. Adelina won so fair, over-jumped, her rotations were on different level. Adelina's win was pure." Then they are talking about Russian pair split. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbdjMdHnfVA -from fb

Her interview is absurd. She should compare their short program too. And I guess she can't even recognize what the under-rotation and wrong edges are.

And back in 2007, Tarasova highly complimented how good yuna is. Here is the link for those who can understand russian. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45sAYDVWvOw

She exalts every elements of her program. On her triple loop jump, she said "It's even hard for men to jump like that. I don't know how she could learn all that in Korea." "I guess a genius can be born anywhere." "She is the best and I like her 'Roxanne de Tango' the most." Then, the other commentator said that "the winner is going to be either Asada or Yuna."
Tara replied, "No, they are very different. It's difficult to compare. I still felt Yuna's program was shorter time. But Mao still did a very good job."

I guess her inferiority started when Yuna started to get such a high attention over her in Vancouver Olympic.

 

[AliceInWonderland]

1) You're comparing apples to oranges. We're discussing skating federations here, and biathlons and gymnastics don't belong in the same category. Idk how those federations function, and which nations have strong federations and what not.

2) Russians might be accustomed to corruption and have resigned themselves to it, but that doesn't mean everyone else should should adopt the Russian attitude and sigh and move on when they feel something is unfair. Also, the petition had a significant number of signatures that didn't originate from South Korea.

I agree with your first point but not your second point. From what I remember, over 90% of those signatures were from South Korea, so it was mostly Koreans who were signing it. As for outcry, there are many reasons for a country to have no significant outcry, being "resigned to corruption" isn't the only one.

 

[AliceInWonderland]

Let me just pull up what Tarasova said about South Korea's complaint.

Russian news about KOC protest. They are saying that Adelina had only ONE mistake in her free skate. She did a mistake but the difficulty of her program was higher then from Korean skater. Also Tarasova (Coach): " Olympic games are free of manipulation, never had, never will have. And they (Koreans) better watch skate of their own skater which is definitely extraordinary athlete but on last Olympic games (2010) I thought she got too high scores compare to Mao Asada (PS She is Mao's choreographer). And by the second score Mao should been ahead of Yuna. It was impossible to compete. Adelina won so fair, over-jumped, her rotations were on different level. Adelina's win was pure." Then they are talking about Russian pair split. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbdjMdHnfVA -from fb

Her interview is absurd. She should compare their short program too. And I guess she can't even recognize what the under-rotation and wrong edges are.

And back in 2007, Tarasova highly complimented how good yuna is. Here is the link for those who can understand russian. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45sAYDVWvOw

She exalts every elements of her program. On her triple loop jump, she said "It's even hard for men to jump like that. I don't know how she could learn all that in Korea." "I guess a genius can be born anywhere." "She is the best and I like her 'Roxanne de Tango' the most." Then, the other commentator said that "the winner is going to be either Asada or Yuna."
Tara replied, "No, they are very different. It's difficult to compare. I still felt Yuna's program was shorter time. But Mao still did a very good job."

I guess her inferiority started when Yuna started to get such a high attention over her in Vancouver Olympic.

Tarasova is just fed up with the world these days it seems.

 

[ahy]

Let me just pull up what Tarasova said about South Korea's complaint.

Russian news about KOC protest. They are saying that Adelina had only ONE mistake in her free skate. She did a mistake but the difficulty of her program was higher then from Korean skater. Also Tarasova (Coach): " Olympic games are free of manipulation, never had, never will have. And they (Koreans) better watch skate of their own skater which is definitely extraordinary athlete but on last Olympic games (2010) I thought she got too high scores compare to Mao Asada (PS She is Mao's choreographer). And by the second score Mao should been ahead of Yuna. It was impossible to compete. Adelina won so fair, over-jumped, her rotations were on different level. Adelina's win was pure." Then they are talking about Russian pair split. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbdjMdHnfVA -from fb

Her interview is absurd. She should compare their short program too. And I guess she can't even recognize what the under-rotation and wrong edges are.

And back in 2007, Tarasova highly complimented how good yuna is. Here is the link for those who can understand russian. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45sAYDVWvOw

She exalts every elements of her program. On her triple loop jump, she said "It's even hard for men to jump like that. I don't know how she could learn all that in Korea." "I guess a genius can be born anywhere." "She is the best and I like her 'Roxanne de Tango' the most." Then, the other commentator said that "the winner is going to be either Asada or Yuna."
Tara replied, "No, they are very different. It's difficult to compare. I still felt Yuna's program was shorter time. But Mao still did a very good job."

I guess her inferiority started when Yuna started to get such a high attention over her in Vancouver Olympic.

I don't know why but im laughing so hard

 

[pangtongfan]

Tarasova is just fed up with the world these days it seems.

The world feels mutual towards Tarasova in return.

 

[Antilopa]

is it really funny? I think it's very rudely

 

[s_parks]

is it really funny? I think it's very rudely

sorrynotsorry

 

[Antilopa]

sorrynotsorry

:think: