South Korean federation's complaint to the ISU about judging

[[email protected]]

It was not a biathlete, it was the cross country skiier Larissa Lazutina.

The difference in this is it a controversy around the world, especialy the figure skating world, where the rest of the world just laughs at Russia when it comes to Plushenko and Lysacek.

You are right - it was about skiers. The issue was not that simple and obvious - the athletes even appealed to the European Human Rights Court - if it were just "corrupted russians were caught" I guess, we would have just tried to forget it as soon as possible. Of course, no one bothered to listen.
Let's forget about skiing - I just wanted to say that Olympic scandals are not about sports federations and their relative powers - it goes higher to the power of countries. And as I said, there is only one universal power - the USA.

As for "the rest of the world just laughs", I usually dismiss comments about "the rest of the world" because they are emphatic tools when someone wants to beef up her personal view. But this time OK, how about that: Elvis Stojko is part of Russia or the rest of the world? The question is because he did not laugh but wrote: "[T]he judges’ scoring probably killed figure skating because kids now are going to see this and say, 'Oh, I don’t need a quad. I can just do great footwork for presentation marks and do a couple of nice spins and make it to Olympic champion..." And even those who said that based on the rules Lysacek won fair, also said that it was a close call, and quads should have been graded higher because for example the difference between triple and double axel was bigger than between triple and quad toeloop. Does not sound like a laugh to me.

Ok, summing up. I am still hot on FS (god knows until when). And there is not much happening. Next Sunday I will go to the show in Moscow. And then another big pause. What is left is this running around the circles discussion. It is futile: no one will change her mind. And the protest will be declined not because it is Korean federation. Russian federation would hardly bother but even if it did the likelihood of the positive outcome would be minuscule. We just don't have a single case but the second gold medal in SLC when such protests resulted in something (in fact, it was a shame, imho).

 

[Ophelia]

I agree with your first point but not your second point. From what I remember, over 90% of those signatures were from South Korea, so it was mostly Koreans who were signing it. As for outcry, there are many reasons for a country to have no significant outcry, being "resigned to corruption" isn't the only one.

10% of 2m = 200,000 people who aren't Koreans signing the petition. That's quite alot of non-Koreans.

I also find it rude that people keep trivializing this petition because it's generated by South Korea. It doesn't make it any less valid than a petition started by another country.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

10% of 2m = 200,000 people who aren't Koreans signing the petition. That's quite alot of non-Koreans.

I also find it rude that people keep trivializing this petition because it's generated by South Korea. It doesn't make it any less valid than a petition started by another country.

Then maybe people should show the same respect to opinions from people like Tarasova for example. Kind of a double standard by some to criticize Tarasova for having an opinion. Is her opinion any less valid because she is Russian? How about people assuming that because certain judges are Russian they are guilty of fraudulent judging simply for being Russian. You see where this logic comes from right. In many ways directly from the petition itself.

 

[pangtongfan]

You are right - it was about skiers. The issue was not that simple and obvious - the athletes even appealed to the European Human Rights Court - if it were just "corrupted russians were caught" I guess, we would have just tried to forget it as soon as possible. Of course, no one bothered to listen.
Let's forget about skiing - I just wanted to say that Olympic scandals are not about sports federations and their relative powers - it goes higher to the power of countries. And as I said, there is only one universal power - the USA.

As for "the rest of the world just laughs", I usually dismiss comments about "the rest of the world" because they are emphatic tools when someone wants to beef up her personal view. But this time OK, how about that: Elvis Stojko is part of Russia or the rest of the world? The question is because he did not laugh but wrote: "[T]he judges’ scoring probably killed figure skating because kids now are going to see this and say, 'Oh, I don’t need a quad. I can just do great footwork for presentation marks and do a couple of nice spins and make it to Olympic champion..." And even those who said that based on the rules Lysacek won fair, also said that it was a close call, and quads should have been graded higher because for example the difference between triple and double axel was bigger than between triple and quad toeloop. Does not sound like a laugh to me.

Ok, summing up. I am still hot on FS (god knows until when). And there is not much happening. Next Sunday I will go to the show in Moscow. And then another big pause. What is left is this running around the circles discussion. It is futile: no one will change her mind. And the protest will be declined not because it is Korean federation. Russian federation would hardly bother but even if it did the likelihood of the positive outcome would be minuscule. We just don't have a single case but the second gold medal in SLC when such protests resulted in something (in fact, it was a shame, imho).

Stojko is an incredibly bitter man these days, who feels his "legacy" in skating (which these days boils down to nothing besides his making the quadruple jump a prominent part of the sport, and not his new form of what defined artistry in mens skating complete with two foot skating, long poses, and a bunch of recycled martial art programs) is not properly respected. That is why he would rather see the Olympic gold to an empty program with no choreography, transitions, performance, and even poorly done jumps that night over a well rounded program that had 8 very well done triples (well other than 1 of the triple axels), very good spins and footwork, and was a complete whole. Heavens knows I am not a Lysacek fan, and my posting history proves that I am in fact a fan (not an uber, but a supporter) of Plushenko and have defended him many times on this forum. However there is no way in hell Plushenko was robbed of the OGM in 2010. He was in fact way overscored and lucky to even win silver. His PCS in the LP were a complete sham, they should have been as low or lower than the short program since the program was almost as bad and empty, but the skating was far worse. If anyone was robbed it was Takahashi, who blew both Lysacek and Plushenko's skating out of the water apart form his opening quad miss, and some dubious (at best) calls on an < and a flutz call. If I were a judge I would have given Takahashi gold, Lysacek silver, and probably Plushenko 5th behind Lambiel and Weir. One poor program with a tiny little quad landed on the toe picks does not merit an OGM.

Of course Russians always think in figure skating they are the best. They even think Lobacheva & Averbuhk were robbed of the gold in 2002. They probably think Slutskaya was robbed of gold not only in 2002, but 1998 and 2006 as well. Meanwhile they think the golds of Berezhnaya & Sikharulidze, Sotnikova, and Grischuk & Platov in 1994 were in no way controversial anywhere but the US, Korea, and Britian. They really have convinced themselves of that, which is a special skill itself. I couldnt master that level of self delusion as the Russians have practiced if I tried.

 

[Ophelia]

Then maybe people should show the same respect to opinions from people like Tarasova for example. Kind of a double standard by some to criticize Tarasova for having an opinion. Is her opinion any less valid because she is Russian? How about people assuming that because certain judges are Russian they are guilty of fraudulent judging simply for being Russian. You see where this logic comes from right. In many ways directly from the petition itself.

People aren't disrespecting Tarasova's opinion bc she's Russian. They're laughing at what she says bc some of her statements are ludicrous, such as 1) her explanation of Sotnikova's program theme, and 2) the fact that the Olympic Games have always been free of corruption.

 

[[email protected]]

Of course Russians always think in figure skating they are the best. They even think Lobacheva & Averbuhk were robbed of the gold in 2002. They probably think Slutskaya was robbed of gold not only in 2002, but 1998 and 2006 as well. Meanwhile they think the golds of Berezhnaya & Sikharulidze, Sotnikova, and Grischuk & Platov in 1994 were in no way controversial anywhere but the US, Korea, and Britian. They really have convinced themselves of that, which is a special skill itself. I couldnt master that level of self delusion as the Russians have practiced if I tried.

It's getting unnecessarily heated so that, I guess, it's time to check out. One thing about the list, though. Not speaking about "the Russians" or "the rest of the world" I personally do not think that Slutskaia was robbed in 2006. She would have if she had not fallen and was deprived of OGM. But she fell. As for Grischuk&Platov, I was depressed then because I liked Torvill&Dean much better. There were some explanations like "too slow". But T&D were simply majestic. Other golds mentioned are fine with me and let "the rest of the world" keep agitating itself.

 

[Ladymadchan]

I don't think it's racist to talk about the Russians officials/judges systematically cheating.

1. 2014 Ladies event
2. 2002 Pairs
3. 1998 Ice Dancing (Yuri Balkov)
4. Article about how all of the Russian Judges were suspended in the 1970s/1980s.
5. Didn't the Russian Ice dancing teams win at every Olympics until the 2000s? Come on do you really think there wasn't cheating involved?

Is any other country reputed to have been involved in so many judging scandals at the Olympic level. Perhaps a number of other countries have cheated, but the Russian Skating Federation take it to another level and thus deserve the scrutiny.

 

[evangeline]

I don't think it's racist to talk about the Russians officials/judges systematically cheating.

1. 2014 Ladies event
2. 2002 Pairs
3. 1998 Ice Dancing (Yuri Balkov)
4. Article about how all of the Russian Judges were suspended in the 1970s/1980s.
5. Didn't the Russian Ice dancing teams win at every Olympics until the 2000s? Come on do you really think there wasn't cheating involved?

Is any other country reputed to have been involved in so many judging scandals at the Olympic level. Perhaps a number of other countries have cheated, but the Russian Skating Federation take it to another level and thus deserve the scrutiny.

Yuri Balkov is actually Ukrainian.

And actually, there was an academic study that analyzed judging patterns done a few years ago and according to that study, apparently the Canadian judges were the most nationalistic in their scoring.

And you are incorrect in saying that Russian ice dance teams won every single Olympics until the 2000s. Torvill/Dean won the Olympic games in 1984. And if you actually watch ice dance, it's clear the Soviet/Russian OGM teams deserved to win the gold every time except probably 1994, when Grishuk/Platov won their first OGM. I personally preferred Usova/Zhulin in 1994, but Usova/Zhulin were also Russians too. I don't believe that a single person would argue that legends like Pakhomova/Gorshkov and Klimova/Ponomorenko didn't deserve to win their OGMs. Heck, so many people hate Navka/Kostomarov in English-language figure skating forums online, but I don't think I've seen a single soul argue that they didn't deserve to win in 2006

 

[pangtongfan]

Beyond the farce of the ladies event in 2014 and pairs event in 2002, here are some other pieces of evidence why people are rightly skeptical of the Russians, their rampant cheating, and their honesty in the sport:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71j523P23Ig
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNslubT_jF4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlf1xDu7IZA

I wish I could find a video on the food taping incident at the 99 world pairs event, but I cant find it, but two judges were seen giving foot signals to each other just before Shen & Zhao's controversial marks which saw them lose to Berezhnaya & Sikharulidze who had earlier fallen and two footed another major element. One of the two being the Russian judge (isnt it always) and another ex Soviet judge of course, both who were suspended after Debbie Wilkes brought in the video evidence, and both whom had their suspensions reduced during the summer (again of course).

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

is it really funny? I think it's very rudely

While PTF gets very colorful at times...I usually always get a laugh out of it. Even when I dont agree. Guilty pleasure? Maybe. I'm sure worse has been said about Tarasova who I personally do hold respect for. Sorry to disappoint

 

[cuon_alpinus]

http://voices.yahoo.com/a-solution-sochi-scandal-12617116.html?cat=9

New opinion by Jesse Helms

"It is a time for USFSA (US Figure Skating Association) to take action to rescue ladies figure skating from the hand of thieves in the ISU."

"The ISU, disguised as a gatekeeper for fair judging, had introduced the COP system, but it turns out the mathematical system only became a fraudulent tool for the judges to arbitrarily manipulate the competition results."

"In Sochi, however, the ISU revealed its true colors, turning the judging system to create and anoint a new figure skating, a monstrous hybrid of Russian juniorism and systematic fraud."

"Sochi Scandal was a double edged crime: It's against the historic establishment of modern figure skating, and against the judging system itself; it denies its own value system within itself.

"As a result, the modern figure skating that had started with Janet Lynn ended in 2013 Worlds.

Since, the ISU created a new figure skating characterized by Julia Lipnitzskaia and culminated in Adelina Sotnikova in Sochi.

But we cannot recognize it as a legitimate figure skating, because it is not. It may be Cinquanta's figure skating, or Russian figure skating if you will.

Sochi Scandal is a crime in which Cinquanta and his corrupt judges hijacked the sport and ran off to Siberia to repaint it red.

Now, it's a time to expel those criminals and restore the sport. It's not an issue centering on Yuna Kim; it's our heritage in jeopardy."

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Jesse Helms... Meh.

 

[Ophelia]

The writing in that Yahoo article is terrible.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

I think this type of thinking can only lead to derail the process of fixing the judging flaws.

But we cannot recognize it as a legitimate figure skating, because it is not

Good comedy, yes! Good writing, no!

I have always said even my favorite has received generous scoring. That is fairly obvious but she took advantage and skated legitamitley better than her competition and earned her place among the elite in the world. To not give credit to the effort is just wrong.

 

[Meoima]

Yahoo article has reached a new level of shallowness .

 

[BusyMom]

Yahoo article has reached a new level of shallowness .

Actually, no, they are very famous for their shallowness.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

TITLE OF ARTICLE :

A Solution to the Sochi Scandal

Allow me to now quote all solutions given:

none

Please correct me if I am wrong.

Jesse Helms I know you're here at GS. Please de-lurk and personally respond

 

[cooper]

^it seems to me it's a personal piece written via yahoo or whatever.. so i don't know why people are taking that opinion piece seriously nor people complaining..

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Because that type of thinking is a problem for the sport as a whole. Some of us are willing to say it. Why put this crap out there is a better question IMO. It is possible some, especially low informed fans, may believe it. Some people don't even question "news" media like the wire

 

[cooper]

Because that type of thinking is a problem for the sport as a whole. Some of us are willing to say it. Why put this crap out there is a better question IMO. Some people especially low informed fans may believe it. Some people don't even question "news" media like the wire

i thought the wire just put their own article with their own interpretation of the rules... nbc did the same thing by just showing the opinions of their own panel without even explaining it further.. at least "the wire" wasn't lazy enough to make their own interpretation of the rules just like the ny times defending the result.. it's a matter of choices.. whether you believe it or not..