Partnership balance in pairs & dance teams

Occassionally, we hear about partnerships (mostly ice dance) where there is an imbalance in the skill level between partners. The couples that are most mentioned are N&K, G&G and C&S (althogh Galit has really improved a lot).
However having a female skater who is a better skater (as in the case of N&K and G&G) doesn't seem to affect their scores as much as it would if the stronger partner was the male (see C&S).
Is this because the judges probably pay more attention to the female skater,and therefore, are more likely to notice whether the female or the male skater is the stronger skater?


It also seems as if there isn't the same degree of partnership imbalance between pairs skaters as there are ice dancers.
The only skater that really stands out in my mind is Rodnina Ulanov/Zaitsev.
How balanced was the partnership between Mishkutenok & Dmitriev or Kazakova & Dmitriev?
Dmitriev was very much the star of the pair-but was he also the better skater?
How about Jamie & David? It seems, from what I've read, that David is a better skater than Jamie is.

Overall, what pairs & dance teams over the years do you think were the most balance?
On the flip side, what pair & dance teams were the most imbalanced?

I don't think David is a better skater than Jamie. He may be a more consistent jumper, but I think the charisma and performance level that Jamie adds to the pair completely cancels that out.

I think Scott Moir is a better skate than Tessa Virtue, but I can see her improving already, and I bet as she grows and matures (she's only 16!), they will be much more balanced.

I think Rena Inoue is a stronger skater than John Baldwin.

I think some of the most balanced teams are Belbin and Agosto, Marcoux and Buntin, and perhaps Dubreuil and Lauzon?

I always thought Ina/Zimmerman were an interesting mix because she seemed to have a complete upper hand in technical aspects/consistency and he had the charisma and carraige in spades.

Parchem seems to be noticibly stronger than his two last partners but I did think Stephanie had presentation to match him.

Sometimes I think Orscher is stronger than Lucash (in there Nat LP he seemed so rushed comparede to her.)

And of course, everyone's favorite whipping couple- Fuzar Poli (sp) and Margalio.

rob43 said:

I always thought Ina/Zimmerman were an interesting mix because she seemed to have a complete upper hand in technical aspects/consistency and he had the charisma and carraige in spades.

Parchem seems to be noticibly stronger than his two last partners but I did think Stephanie had presentation to match him.

Sometimes I think Orscher is stronger than Lucash (in there Nat LP he seemed so rushed comparede to her.)

And of course, everyone's favorite whipping couple- Fuzar Poli (sp) and Margalio.

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I completely agree with you on everything. With FP&M, I don't think it is as obvious as N&K and G&G for example, because while Maurizio is the weaker partner, he also has a great deal of charisma and dance ability as well.

the best ice dance teams

The best ice dance teams historically have had stronger male
skaters:

The most notable is Torvill and Dean. Christopher Dean lead that team
with superb, strong edges.

Klimova and Panamorenko - Panamorenko was far stronger, surer,
swifter and THERE.

Blumberg & Siebert - While Judy is an excellent skater, Michael
was one of the finest male ice dancers ever and maybe the finest at
the time he competed.

Hi, Kaesie, welcome to the forum. Thanks for contributing.

Mathman

lulu said:

Occassionally, we hear about partnerships (mostly ice dance) where there is an imbalance in the skill level between partners. The couples that are most mentioned are N&K, G&G and C&S (althogh Galit has really improved a lot).
However having a female skater who is a better skater (as in the case of N&K and G&G) doesn't seem to affect their scores as much as it would if the stronger partner was the male (see C&S).
Is this because the judges probably pay more attention to the female skater,and therefore, are more likely to notice whether the female or the male skater is the stronger skater?


It also seems as if there isn't the same degree of partnership imbalance between pairs skaters as there are ice dancers.
The only skater that really stands out in my mind is Rodnina Ulanov/Zaitsev.
How balanced was the partnership between Mishkutenok & Dmitriev or Kazakova & Dmitriev?
Dmitriev was very much the star of the pair-but was he also the better skater?
How about Jamie & David? It seems, from what I've read, that David is a better skater than Jamie is.

Overall, what pairs & dance teams over the years do you think were the most balance?
On the flip side, what pair & dance teams were the most imbalanced?

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I always think of Sale and Pelletier as being pretty evenly matched skill wise especailly towards the end of their eligible careers, the only problem earlier on was Jamie's inconsistent triple jumps and managing her nerves. I think david skated well when he was nervous and used the enegry well where as jamie used to fall to pieces under the pressure. But she learnt to deal with it.

Another pairs partnership where the female is a much stronger basic skater than the male, i think, is Obertas and Slavnov. I think her basic skating technique, straoking and lines are way better than his but he's worked hard to get his up to scratch but they're still, i think, unbalanced.

Ant

I think in pairs, the best skaters are usually the women b/c they are the ones who have to land the big elements.

Rena is a much better skater than John.
Orscher better than Lucash.


In ice dance: Ben is considerably better than Tanith. She might be able to keep up with him but she doesn't have the line or extension that he has.

Grushina is better than Goncharov.
Having watched the Lituanians, the man is much better than the woman.
Sergei used to be a whole lot better than Galit, but now they are almost equal.

David was a much better jumper than Jamie. Not only did she have problems with her 3T but with her 2A too. David was consistent and successful with all the triples, except the A. Back in the late 90's, he even almost qualified for World team in singles.

He also is an amazing pairs skater. His technique in the lift, twists and throws was close to perfect.

For D/L, I think Patrice is a better skater. Better edges, amazingly strong for lifts, better twizzles. MF is also more frequently having problems in the footwork.

With pairs, you can usually spot who is the stronger partner. But the thing is, in nearly every case, both partners bring something important to the partnership, or else they wouldn't be together.

Sale/Pelletier. David is definitely the stronger partner in this pair. Not only his jumps, but also his basic skating skills, seem stronger than Jamie's. When I saw them live in SOI, I was immediately struck by the smoothness and flow of his edges, and thought to myself, "He's better than her." However--that said--Jamie brings an incredible amount of charisma, audience appeal, and emotional depth to this team's skating. She is just as important a part of this team's success as David.

Meno/Sand. In this partnership, Jenni was always the stronger skater. She was much more solid with her jumps; also, she outshone Todd in charisma and presentation skills. Of course, together they had a lot of chemistry, due to their off-ice relationship. Also, Todd seemed to have solid partnering skills and a steady temperament, which helps in competition. But I do feel that Todd held this team back a bit. I've always felt that if Jenni had had a better partner, she could have become a world champion. (She came close anyhow with Todd, winning a world silver and two world bronzes.)

Mishkutenok/Dmitriev. In this pair, I would have to say Artur was stronger. However, it wasn't by much, because Natalia was an excellent skater, and in most ways matched and complemented Artur extremely well, especially early in their career. Both Natalia and Artur had very good basic skating skills. And both had excellent presentation skills. The two of them had different artistic styles: Natialia, cool and queenly; Artur, passionate and dramatic. But their styles complemented and meshed very well and therefore made them interesting to watch. In the end, though, Artur was a more reliable jumper, and overall his conditioning and weight remained under better control than Natalia's (although it wasn't a strong point for either of them).

Kazakova/Dmitriev. In this pair, Artur was much stronger in every way, except probably for conditioning. I'm sure Oksana had her strengths. But with this pair, the focus was always on Artur, rather than on the pair.

Pang/Tong. As commentators have pointed out, Tong is the stronger partner in this pair by far. Pang struggles to match him in all areas--presentation, skating skills, and jumping. When she *can* rise to his level, though, they are most enjoyable to watch.

These are just a couple examples; I could go on, it's a fascinating topic.

northguy said:

For D/L, I think Patrice is a better skater. Better edges, amazingly strong for lifts, better twizzles. MF is also more frequently having problems in the footwork.

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I think you're right re: technique. Presentation-wise, he is so unassuming on ice, and he presents her so well, that it's easy to forget him, except as a partner to her.

I think some posters here have hit the nail on the head - we often notice presentation rather than actual technique. Take the example of Gordeeva & Grinkov. He was actually a better technician, with far fewer mistakes than Katya; however, because she was always the expressive part of the team, she was the one most viewers concentrated on and considered the stronger skater.

Ptichka said:

I think some posters here have hit the nail on the head - we often notice presentation rather than actual technique. Take the example of Gordeeva & Grinkov. He was actually a better technician, with far fewer mistakes than Katya; however, because she was always the expressive part of the team, she was the one most viewers concentrated on and considered the stronger skater.

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which according to many is how the partnership is supposed to be... the man "presents" the woman... didn't Katya even say that in her book? ( I could well be dreaming that too )

but I always watch the guy more than the girl... and I've always thought that David Pelletier was just as good if not better than Sergei Grinkov as far as pairs skating went...

rob43 said:

I
Parchem seems to be noticibly stronger than his two last partners but I did think Stephanie had presentation to match him.
.

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I guess I must be tired of reading how Aaron's partners aren't as good as he is. I think Steph had some problems with jumps and throws but as far as Marcy goes, she always lands her throws and at Skate America and at 4 Continents last week ahe landed beautiful triple toes in both short and long programs. Aaron doubled the triple toe in the long at Skate America and had to set down a lift at 4 Continents. I think this these two are very well matched...their programs are great this year and their line is beautiful. They are my favorite American team and I wish them the best of luck and fun times in Torino!!!

Eryia, thanks so much for your detailed & informative post.

eyria said:

Sale/Pelletier. David is definitely the stronger partner in this pair. Not only his jumps, but also his basic skating skills, seem stronger than Jamie's.

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I'd often thought that David's pairs skills & basic skills were better than Jamie's. No slight to Jamie, obviously she's talented, just not (IMHO) not to the same level that David is. She does, like you say, bring a lot of charisma to the team.

eyria said:

Mishkutenok/Dmitriev. In this pair, I would have to say Artur was stronger. However, it wasn't by much, because Natalia was an excellent skater, and in most ways matched and complemented Artur extremely well, especially early in their career. Both Natalia and Artur had very good basic skating skills. And both had excellent presentation skills.

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How do you think M&D's basic skills compared?
I think that as a team, their greatest basic skill was probably their speed.

ITA with you on their presentation skill. I know some people probably found their style a bit too untraditional, with Artur having such a huge role in the presentation of the programs, but that is exactly why I liked them so much.

eyria said:

Kazakova/Dmitriev. In this pair, Artur was much stronger in every way, except probably for conditioning.

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I think Oksana's biggest strength (besides improving so much since the beginning) was her great body line.

Pang/Tong. As commentators have pointed out, Tong is the stronger partner in this pair by far.

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Igor Moskvin once stated that he thought Tong was the best male skater of all the Chinese pair teams.

lulu said:

Igor Moskvin once stated that he thought Tong was the best male skater of all the Chinese pair teams.

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I think if he spent one summer training with Moskvina and got rid of that awful lurching kick in throws, he'd be the best of all male pairs skaters.

How about B&S? Does anyone think there is a big skill difference there?

I always thought Ilia Averbukh was much stronger than Irina Lobacheva. I agree with the poster who said Vanagas seems a bit stronger than Drobiaszko(sp?). I think his body line is better. I think A&P were well matched, as were K&O (even though she was much more noticeable). I also agree that Lauzon's basic skills and footwork are a little better than Dubreuil.

I've watch David Pelletier with Jamie and never saw him make a mistake or miss something, did you see him miss something???

There is a couple of cases of imbalance that I can think of in Canadian pairs. Annabelle Langlois is much better than Cody Hay right now, but at this point it is age and experience related. He will likely catch up.

Also I think that J.S. Fecteau is much better than his partner U. Wakamatsu. It could be the experience thing though as well, because I know he has been around for a while but I'm not sure how long she has been competing.

I just want to see a new ISU rule stating that the partners should not have more height difference than 6 inches.
Joe