Caroline Zhang Article

bekalc · Feb 15, 2009

Mathman said:
I think we are confusing two different questions.

1. Was U.S. Nationals fairly judged? And

2. Who should be on the Worlds team?

My opinion about question 1 is that Alissa was scored about six points too high in PCSs in the long program. Otherwise, I though the scoring was OK.

Take away those six points and Rachael is first overall with 173.78, Alissa is second with 172.06, and Caroline beats Alissa in the LP but ends up third overall with 171.08.

For question 2, I do not understand why people are feining surprise that the USFSA went with #1 and #2. They ALWAYS do that, barring extraordinary circumstance

Well I agree with that, but I might have given Zhang and Flatt a little extra to beat out Alissa just because I think Alissa was as bad as she was in the long. To be quite frank. The judges could have done that one. And I think it would have been the right decision to do so because of the fact that we are talking about World spots here.

But yeah, of course they are going to go with 1/2.

But I see that, but I was commenting towards the other person, who was all it's Caroline's fault, and I'm just saying No, Not really. Caroline did as much as she could at Nationals and it was the judges decision. You don't tell a skater that landed six triples that they didn't live up to the pressure.

herios · Feb 15, 2009

bekalc said:
Huh? How much more could Caroline have done? .

Skate better is her SP and take off from correct edge on her toe jumps for example... :biggrin:

bekalc · Feb 15, 2009

herios said:
Skate better is her SP and take off from correct edge on her toe jumps for example...

That wouldnt' have changed the results. And quite frankly neither Rachael, Caroline, or Alissa have perfect edges on their toe jumps. Caroline did very well and tried her very hardest. You cannot criticize her ability under pressure when the National Champion handled the pressure much, much worse.

Mathman · Feb 15, 2009

bekalc said:
...I might have given Zhang and Flatt a little extra to beat out Alissa just because I think Alissa was as bad as she was in the long. To be quite frank. The judges could have done that one...

I think that right there exposes the whole fallacy of the CoP. Supposedly, in this new system you get points for what you do according to some kind of schedule and guidelines.

Instead, what happens is just what you say you would have done: give Rachael and Caroline "a little extra" to make sure they beat out Alissa.

That's exactly what the judges did, only the other way around. They gave Alissa "a little extra" to make sure she beat out Flatt and Zhang.

feraina · Feb 15, 2009

Mathman said:
Take away those six points and Rachael is first overall with 173.78, Alissa is second with 172.06, and Caroline beats Alissa in the LP but ends up third overall with 171.08.

But then remember that Caroline was slapped with three ! calls on her flips in SP and LP (along with the edge call on her 3Z). Even if each of those only took away one point (in reality probably more), her total would've topped both Alissa & Rachael. Can anyone think of a single example of any skater under CoP who got edge calls on both flips and lutzes? What were the tech callers smoking? Caroline has never gotten ! or < on her flips from international tech panels. Frankly, it makes no sense that any skater would take off on an inside edge on the lutz and outside edge on the flip. If they had that ability, they could've altered the entry and not gotten edge calls on either.

bekalc · Feb 15, 2009

Mathman said:
I think that right there exposes the whole fallacy of the CoP. Supposedly, in this new system you get points for what you do according to some kind of schedule and guidelines.

Instead, what happens is just what you say you would have done: give Rachael and Caroline "a little extra" to make sure they beat out Alissa.

That's exactly what the judges did, only the other way around. They gave Alissa "a little extra" to make sure she beat out Flatt and Zhang.

Well I think Zhang was scored kind of stingly compared to Alissa and even Flatt. But yeah some of that does happen, and I don't have a huge issue with it. The difference though is that the holding up of Alissa wasn't exactly done based on her skating, but based on other qualities.. Whereas I would have wanted Zhang/Flatt to be ahead based on their skating.

And frankly Alissa wasn't overscored by a little bit. She was overscored by A LOT MORE.

Medusa · Feb 15, 2009

feraina said:
Can anyone think of a single example of any skater under CoP who got edge calls on both flips and lutzes?.

Nakano and Suzuki, as far as I know. It's not that impossible, if someone has a wobbly edge for this jump type in general. But since the Flip edge warning only happened to Zhang at Nationals and never at an international event - perhaps the edge-caller forgot his glasses....

demarinis5 · Feb 15, 2009

AwesomeIce said:
I think the article is ridiculously biased. Caroline DID NOT get screwed over at all this season, she DOES NOT deserve to be on the World team the season. I am so sick of people crying "wuzrobbed" just because their favorite didn't win. She has a lot that she needs to work on before she really looks like a senior lady.

People have a right to voice or post their opinion as much as you which you frequently do on this board (emphasis on caps to get your point across) )when it comes to Caroline. So what if people feel she wuz robbed if that is their opinion they certainly have a right to voice or post it. I think the real issue here is not that Caroline wuz robbed but that the scoring at Nationals was iffy.

Mathman · Feb 15, 2009

Big OT!

"Zhang (pronounced Jang)"

Why didn't I know that? I thought Zh was pronounced like the French J, or the z in "azure."

I looked it up. I was dead wrong. According to this explanation, Zh is closest to "Ge" as in George, not the voiced sh sound in he middle of measure.

http://www.monash.edu.au/lls/China/teaching/names2.xml

I also noticed that Canadian announcers pronounce the "a" flatter and shorter (as in cat) than is the case of U.S. announcers ("a" as in father.)

We better get it straight before the Olympics, when she and Ashley Vog-nah go for gold! :biggrin:

Joesitz (RIP) · Feb 15, 2009

In school. speech class was "a" as in cat not as kait, not as kot but simple Cat.

The litany was cat, sandman, mandate, champion, national., landmass. The British english I believe uses 2 sounds for "a". Master (as we say it) and Closs (as they say it).

Anyway, Czisny won the US Nats and therefore a part of the World Team. I'm not sure if second place Nats is also included or it is just a choice of the USFS.

Good luck to both of them in LA. We want 13 points but I don't think they care. Theres is no pressure - just stage fright involved.

R.D. · Feb 15, 2009

Anyway, Czisny won the US Nats and therefore a part of the World Team. I'm not sure if second place Nats is also included or it is just a choice of the USFS.

Good luck to both of them in LA. We want 13 points but I don't think they care. Theres is no pressure - just stage fright involved.

I agree with the last part. But I think the 13 HAS to run through their mind at some point. Even Rachel herself mentioned it in some interview IIRC, right after Nationals.

I think only the Champion is guaranteed a World spot, and that ends this year. But it is a no-brainer to pick Flatt for the team over the other choices.

Joesitz (RIP) · Feb 15, 2009

Red Dog said:
I agree with the last part. But I think the 13 HAS to run through their mind at some point. Even Rachel herself mentioned it in some interview IIRC, right after Nationals.

How can you be so sure? Have you asked them? I was a competitor, and I know many competitors who just want to win or at least place. They are not interested in the glory of the Home Team. that's what teams sports are all about.

Don't forget if the USFS gets 13 and 3 skaters, that is one more skater bugging Czisny and Flatt. Why would they want that?

R.D. · Feb 15, 2009

Joesitz said:
How can you be so sure? Have you asked them? I was a competitor, and I know many competitors who just want to win or at least place. They are not interested in the glory of the Home Team. that's what teams sports are all about.

Well, it would all be speculation but I'm going by what Rachel said- I wish I could find the link but I forgot where it was.

I'm sure everyone is looking out for themselves in these competitions even though they're in "teams". The only way to make it a team event is to add up the scores from each team member, but even in that case, each skater still has to focus on her own performance.

Don't forget if the USFS gets 13 and 3 skaters, that is one more skater bugging Czisny and Flatt. Why would they want that?

who's to say Czisny and Flatt will be the US skaters to go to the Olympics though?

You can bet the OTHER US skaters will be cheering them on hard, because in a way it has implications on their fate next year. One more spot means one more of them gets to go.

Joesitz (RIP) · Feb 15, 2009

At the moment I am watching Golf, and that is a non-team Sport. True there are times when they arrange a team sport like in Britain.

Skating is also a non-team sport. If it were a team sport, we would be hearing at the arena or in the media, which team won the competition. There is never been an announcement to that affect at the competitions. The media may play up the Olympics but they measure gold medals in ALL winter sports.

If you really are interested in Figure Skating team sports, see if you can get a look at the Japan cheesefest after the Worlds. That is some sort of team sport, but I believe most fans will be talking about individual skating.

R.D. · Feb 15, 2009

Joesitz said:
If you really are interested in Figure Skating team sports, see if you can get a look at the Japan cheesefest after the Worlds. That is some sort of team sport, but I believe most fans will be talking about individual skating.

umm...not that interested, thanks

Mathman · Feb 15, 2009

Sure they want to get three spots for the Olympics. The spot they save may be their own!

flying camel · Feb 15, 2009

That is so true. I'm sure they will have that on their mines as well.

Tinymavy15 · Feb 15, 2009

Thanks for posting. Good article and I liked the video. Her jumps look so much bigger than they used to be and her speed has gotten so much better. I think she has maintained a great attitude about missing worlds, i would imagine that she would have been crushed.

R.D. · Feb 15, 2009

Mathman said:
Sure they want to get three spots for the Olympics. The spot they save may be their own!

Well said.

bekalc · Feb 15, 2009

Don't forget if the USFS gets 13 and 3 skaters, that is one more skater bugging Czisny and Flatt. Why would they want that?

Actually it's one LESS person bugging them, when it comes to making the Olympic team.

You realize Sarah Hughes placed third at 2002 Nationals, without 3 spots, she would not have been going to Salt Lake, and there would have been no Olympic Gold.

Caroline Zhang Article

bekalc

herios

bekalc

Mathman

feraina

bekalc

Medusa

demarinis5

Gold for the Winter Prince!

Mathman

Joesitz (RIP)

R.D.

Joesitz (RIP)

R.D.

Joesitz (RIP)

R.D.

Mathman

flying camel

Tinymavy15

Sinnerman for the win

R.D.

bekalc

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