Who does great spirals?

Amei said:

Not doing anything??? Ha! I want to see some of them holding their legs completely vertical and say that 'nothing is being done' - I'll even let them do it on solid ground.

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I don't know for sure what the reasoning of the iSU is, but maybe this is the point. Holding your leg up vertically or assuming a beautiful Arabesque position is basically a solid ground skill, rather than a skating skill?

Sam-Squantch said:

Maybe a skater could insert some coin noises into their program and time it up to a spiral in order to sound like Mario Bros. collecting a bunch of coins to fool the judges into thinking they are doing something of value.

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I once saw a feature where a young skater won a skating lesson from Michelle Kwan in some sort of contest or drawing. Michelle showed her a particular move and then said. "See? It looks like I am doing something, but actually all I am doing is moving my arms up and down!"

Well, at least with a spiral, they are showing their skating skills because they have to hold an edge while in a difficult body position.

What I absolutely abhor is when a program is full of mini-stops filled only with hip gyrating or blow kisses or what not, and that somehow translates into higher PCS. Then, I'm like

I mean, ask me to do a arabesque, and I couldn't do one on the ground, much less while skating on ice. But ask me to gyrate my hips, either on ground or while wearing skates, and I think I could manage that. Likewise with blowing kisses, winking, smiling, etc. Not that anyone would want to see that.

Mathman said:

You can't hold a spiral for any length of time any more, because you cannot allow all those seconds to go by during which you are not adding any points to your total.

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Mathman said:

I think that the ISU felt that a skater isn't really doing anything during a spiral. She is not jumping, she is not spinning, she is not moving her feet in steps and turns. Just gliding along looking pretty.

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Why do you think they felt that?

IIRC (but I would have to go search for the proposals), the published rationale given for removing the spiral sequence (and men's second step sequence) in the short program and replacing them with choreographed sequence in the free skate was to allow more time for choreography. Of various kinds, but initially women were required to include at least one spiral in their choreo sequence.

I.e., they did want skaters to show skills that were not jumps or spins or quick steps, specifically in ways that would enhance the program as a whole rather than check off boxes to earn points, such as holding spirals for just enough time to earn features rather than as dictated by the music.

Some skaters have chosen to use the ChSq more as a rest element, and to use the extra time in the short program for longer step sequences, longer spins, or longer jump setups -- to get higher levels or higher GOE on those elements. But that's not what the ISU said they wanted.

If used the way the ISU said they want, a good ChSq should earn high GOEs for good flow, energy, execution, speed, clarity and precision (of edges and positions), control and commitment of whole body, creativity, originality, effortlessness, reflecting the character of the program and/or enhancing the musical structure.

A skater who does those things well in the choreo sequence and as well as in the rest of the program should also earn more points for any or all of the program components aside from Transitions -- a good choreo sequence, including one that uses spirals, is a good opportunity to show off skating quality, body line, choreography, and musicality.

Outside of the ChSq, including in the short program, good spirals (or other field moves) can help the skater's all the program components especially Transitions.

IMO one skater who has made good use of the ChSq as intended is Samantha Cesario. Not so much for the spiral itself, but for the quality of the other elements in the sequence and for the way the whole sequence enhances the music and the theme of the program. And the judges agreed, giving her significantly higher scores for that element than the rest of the field at 4Continents.

AsadaFanBoy said:

Asada, Nagasu, Miyahara, Wagner

Jason Brown, Michael Christian Martinez

Czisny (yasss), Kwan, Bobek, Cohen, Kerrigan (for her time)

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I am so excited for Jason's new program because he has planned to include a ton of beautiful spirals. More than any skater male or female in recent years. Last year he planned to include a couple but then scrapped them. So glad they're back!!

Once again gkelly sees all.

Couldn't agree more on Samantha's ChSeq!! :yes:

Jason Brown, Sasha Cohen, Mao Asada, Alissa Czisny, Akiko Suzuki!

gkelly said:

Why do you think they felt that?

IIRC (but I would have to go search for the proposals), the published rationale given for removing the spiral sequence (and men's second step sequence) in the short program and replacing them with choreographed sequence in the free skate was to allow more time for choreography.

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OK, I will add choreography. By eliminating a long spiral sequence, that frees up more time for technical elements, footwork, and choreography. Still, if the big concern was mpre time for choreography they could have eliminated a jump or spin instead. IMHO what they didn;t want is for skaters just to hold an edge while looking at their watch, as in this Kristi Yamaguchi masterpiece. :yes:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmbLS7cAYrA&t=1m50s

Mathman said:

I don't know for sure what the reasoning of the iSU is, but maybe this is the point. Holding your leg up vertically or assuming a beautiful Arabesque position is basically a solid ground skill, rather than a skating skill?

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On solid ground doing an arabesque - you have to control your stomach and leg muscles, getting into, staying and exiting the position as well as maintain your focus to not fall..On ice you have to do all that as well as maintain your position while moving on ice, sometimes with changing your direction - the more beautiful spirals often include a change of direction.

If the logic for not having a spiral is that its more a solid ground skill and not a skating skill - then we should remove step-sequences and lifts because those are solid ground skills as well.

My point (with sarcasm) was that on the point that a spiral is 'not doing anything' is laughable and that most of the ISU decision-makers can't do a spiral position on ice or solid ground (where its easier to do it).

^ Well, I am probably wrong about all that. I don't really know why the iSU makes the decisions it makes.

Michelle's spiral is still the most iconic move in figure skating and is still, hands down, my absolute favorite.https://youtu.be/WuHu9rwqdrw?t=145

Caroline Zhang had some awesome spirals in her early days. Gorgeous extension and line and I loved that backwards one-handed position she did: https://youtu.be/VuJlvuzAduI?t=153

Sasha had some wonderful spirals of course (as already mentioned in this thread) but my favorite was that forward skid move she did out of the fan spiral: https://youtu.be/w0WRxKfgAsI?t=193 Really great move that you don't see...I think Mao did it once but I can't recall when/where.

Adelina's unassisted spirals are beautiful (https://youtu.be/uzBRU71pIpw?t=21 https://youtu.be/YOJuO-TRk7A?t=139) and her Charlotte is lovely too (https://youtu.be/uzBRU71pIpw?t=36)

And Fleur Maxwell had gorgeous spirals (https://youtu.be/iHGJ7XB3Jxg?t=50), especially her Charlotte (https://youtu.be/iHGJ7XB3Jxg?t=128). I love how she lifts her upper body while in the extension.

I do miss spirals sometimes but, TBH, not too much. There were some truly clunky, awkward and downright ugly spirals we had to suffer through...and usually all in the name of getting a few extra points. I don't miss those at all. And the people who have nice spiral positions find ways to work them into the programs most of the time so it's not a total loss.

kwanatic said:

Michelle's spiral is still the most iconic move in figure skating and is still, hands down, my absolute favorite.https://youtu.be/WuHu9rwqdrw?t=145

Caroline Zhang had some awesome spirals in her early days. Gorgeous extension and line and I loved that backwards one-handed position she did: https://youtu.be/VuJlvuzAduI?t=153

Sasha had some wonderful spirals of course (as already mentioned in this thread) but my favorite was that forward skid move she did out of the fan spiral: https://youtu.be/w0WRxKfgAsI?t=193 Really great move that you don't see...I think Mao did it once but I can't recall when/where.

Adelina's unassisted spirals are beautiful (https://youtu.be/uzBRU71pIpw?t=21 https://youtu.be/YOJuO-TRk7A?t=139) and her Charlotte is lovely too (https://youtu.be/uzBRU71pIpw?t=36)

And Fleur Maxwell had gorgeous spirals (https://youtu.be/iHGJ7XB3Jxg?t=50), especially her Charlotte (https://youtu.be/iHGJ7XB3Jxg?t=128). I love how she lifts her upper body while in the extension.

I do miss spirals sometimes but, TBH, not too much. There were some truly clunky, awkward and downright ugly spirals we had to suffer through...and usually all in the name of getting a few extra points. I don't miss those at all. And the people who have nice spiral positions find ways to work them into the programs most of the time so it's not a total loss.

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I know what you mean. When I think of truly ugly spirals I think of Kim Yuna and Miki Ando.

:sarcasm:

hurrah said:

Well, at least with a spiral, they are showing their skating skills because they have to hold an edge while in a difficult body position.

What I absolutely abhor is when a program is full of mini-stops filled only with hip gyrating or blow kisses or what not, and that somehow translates into higher PCS. Then, I'm like

I mean, ask me to do a arabesque, and I couldn't do one on the ground, much less while skating on ice. But ask me to gyrate my hips, either on ground or while wearing skates, and I think I could manage that. Likewise with blowing kisses, winking, smiling, etc. Not that anyone would want to see that.

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I simply can't imagine who you are referring to with that sentiment about hip wiggling and kiss blowing

She doesn't hold them very long but I like Zi Jun's spiral

Mao Asada

I thought of her spirals as one of her trademarks, back when they were still required elements. They are not just beautiful with great extension - what sets her's apart is the stability of them - so rock-solid and dependable, it's like she's on rails.

One and only Sasha Cohen

From others: Julia, Mao Asada, Yu-Na Kim, Michelle Kwan. And I loved Satoko's spiral in her FP past season, it was right into the music with a very good position.

YesWay said:

Mao Asada

I thought of her spirals as one of her trademarks, back when they were still required elements. They are not just beautiful with great extension - what sets her's apart is the stability of them - so rock-solid and dependable, it's like she's on rails.

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Agreed. The ONLY time she bobbled slightly on a spiral was after her painful fall at the 2008 Worlds but even that she stabilised right away.

No one can touch Michelle's spirals as far as I'm concerned but Shizuka Arakawa's were very good, especially that fan spiral that she let go of for a few seconds.

Sahs Cohen for her positions or Michelle Kwan, they were just fantastic back in the day, I loved Michelle's Y-spiral and her arabesque

Under COP Mao Asada of course, while spirals were still scored I always wished she had done an arabesque as the unassisted position instead of the fan spiral, her fan spiral is great of course but her arabesque is just beautiful. In the Olympics season when Smile was her EX every time she did the arabesque spiral to the "I love you" in the lyrics I would smile like a cheesy idiot, great extension and back.

Also shout out to Shizuka Arakawa, her spirals were great too and her doing the Y-spiral without hands was just amazing, loved that

Unpopular opinion but I never liked Sasha's spirals. Hands down the best positions, but that never made up for those shallow edges.

Michelle Kwan is my absolute favorite. Positions, usage, edges--she's probably the only one who excels in every category. Her control (like out of this back charlotte) was amazing
Mao comes second mostly due to lacking ice coverage and speed. I disagree about her stability being the greatest (she tends to wobble because she decelerates) but her spirals are so pretty regardless.

Mirai has good spirals in terms of their position.