Entries for 2015 Cup of Austria

Totentanz · Aug 30, 2015

Layback11 said:
Okay, that's good I was going to say, if they're pretenders, who isn't?

My mistake. But obviously those whom I mentioned are the biggest contenders of JGP final. Not pretenders.

And I guess, that poster Dobrin Fan mentioned above is the reason why I did this mistake.

English is my foreign language but pretending something really sounds negative to me. Sorry for this innocent mistake of my confusion.

witcher · Aug 31, 2015

People of rotten, deteriorated west have neglected their own language and we, pretenders from healthy and vigorious east, are coming to save you. :laugh:

YesWay · Aug 31, 2015

golden411 said:
Very strongly disagree re the alleged similarity.
I am a native speaker of English, and my two cents are that the connotations of "pretender" and "contender" are not at all similar!!!

I am a native speaker of English too, and I equally strongly disagree with your assertion that they are "not at all" similar.
In this context, they are very similar.

The part you highlighted, in the "pretender" definition you chose, doesn't invalidate it in the context that people have been using it. Because obviously there will always be people who disagree with whether someone is a "contender" or not, especially in skating.

That part goes without saying, and indeed many other dictionaries do not even include "where others disagree" or somesuch, in their definition of the word:

Dictionary.com
2. an aspirant or claimant (often followed by to): a pretender to the throne.

Collins English Dictionary
2. a person who mounts a claim, as to a throne or title

Oxford dictionary
A person who claims or aspires to a title or position: the pretender to the throne

witcher said:
People of rotten, deteriorated west have neglected their own language and we, pretenders from healthy and vigorious east, are coming to save you.

Haha :-D Actually, I often meet people with English as a second langauge, who use it more "correctly" than native speakers. I imagine because they are taught "proper" English, they make efforts to use correct grammar and spelling, and learn wide-ranging vocabulary... and are not so exposed to the combination of slang, swear words and bad grammar so often used by native speakers...! The internet may be changing that though...

ice coverage · Aug 31, 2015

YesWay said:
I am a native speaker of English too, and I equally strongly disagree with your assertion that they are "not at all" similar.
In this context, they are very similar....

Continue to strongly disagree. Choosing one word versus the other makes a big difference in meaning.

The connotation of "Skater X is a pretender to the national title" is negative, along the lines of:

Although Skater X and/or some people believe she has a chance at the title, plenty of other people are dubious of her chances.

The connotation of "Skater X is a contender for the national title" is positive, along the lines of:

Skater X has a very realistic chance of winning the title.

contender
: a person who tries to win something in a contest; especially : a person who has a good chance of winning

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/contender

IMO, it is a disservice to non-native speakers of English to suggest that the two words are interchangeable.

For movie buffs

:

"I could 'a' been a contender" is Marlon Brando's classic line in On the Waterfront.
It would have made zero sense for his character to regretfully wail, "I could 'a' been a pretender." :laugh:

YesWay · Aug 31, 2015

golden411 said:
The connotation of "Skater X is a pretender to the national title" is negative, along the lines of:

Although Skater X and some people believe she has a chance at the title, plenty of other people are dubious of her chances.

You have simply created that, in a way that is intended to support your interpretation.

I can equally invent a different connotation that supports my interpretation, and is positive or neutral.
eg. "Skater X is a contender for the title, although not everyone is convinced."

You're free to choose whatever interpretation you like, but you need something stronger than the above if you want to impose it as the one true meaning. The fact that we are even having this discussion, says this is probably not possible... not to mention the various respectable dictionaries that do not even include the "where others disagree" clause in their definition of "pretender" (the clause that your argument hinges on).

Quite apart from that, I don't see how your interpretation of "pretender" is so different from "contender" that it warrants describing it vehemently as "not at all similar" or indeed "completely opposite". The way you have put it seems more similar, than disimilar to me. And using it in the context of figure skating, as in these forums... acknowledging a certain amount of disagreement and lack of consensus about whether particular skaters are contenders are not... seems entirely appropriate to me!

PS.

golden411 said:
IMO, it is a disservice to non-native speakers of English to suggest that the two words are interchangeable.

And IMO, it is a disservice to non-native speakers of English to suggest that the words are as different in meaning as you are making out, or that people have been using the "wrong" word in their posts. Because my view is, they have been using a perfectly appropriate word (and possibly more appropriate than "contender" if we accept that "pretender" acknowledges some disagreement or lack of consensus)

Oh, and where did I say they were "interchangeable"? I have only said they have similar meanings and that "pretender" has been used appropriately in these forums.

dorispulaski · Aug 31, 2015

No he hasn't. As a native speaker, I agree with him, and his example of the iconic Brando line is very apt.

No one would ever mourn at the end of his life, "I could have been a pretender."

So in American English, pretender has the connotation that the claim to the position is very debatable. And since Brando, if perhaps not before, contender always has the connotation that the person has a real shot at the title or position, and it is always used that way, especially in political discussions during primary season. You will hear discussions under the heading Is X a Contender or just a Pretender?

For all I know, however, the connotation may not be the same in British, Canadian, Australian or etc. English.

And that is one of the pitfalls of English, for sure:

Actual meanings; not just connotations, spellings, and pronounciations; differ from one English-speaking country to another.

YesWay · Aug 31, 2015

dorispulaski said:
No he hasn't. As a native speaker, I agree with him, and his example of the iconic Brando line is very apt.

No one would ever mourn at the end of his life, "I could have been a pretender."

The best argument for interpreting it that way... is one line... spoken in one Hollywood movie... by Terry the dockworker (played by Marlon Brando)...?

Seriously?

ice coverage · Aug 31, 2015

dorispulaski said:
... So in American English, pretender has the connotation that the claim to the position is very debatable. And since Brando, if perhaps not before, contender always has the connotation that the person has a real shot at the title or position, and it is always used that way, especially in political discussions during primary season. You will hear discussions under the heading Is X a Contender or just a Pretender?

For all I know, however, the connotation may not be the same in British, Canadian, Australian or etc. English.

And that is one of the pitfalls of English, for sure:

Actual meanings; not just connotations, spellings, and pronounciations; differ from one English-speaking country to another.

Thank you, Doris

.
I should have specified above that I am a native speaker of American English.
I agree :agree: with your point that not everything is the same among the various English-speaking countries.

YesWay said:
... Quite apart from that, I don't see how your interpretation of "pretender" is so different from "contender" that it warrants describing it vehemently as "not at all similar". The way you have put it seems more similar, than disimilar to me.

Big difference in nuance. I'll put it this way:

If I were Hubbell or Donohue or Polina Edmunds, I would be pleased to be labeled as a contender for the US national title.
It would indicate high expectations of me based on my track record.

In contrast:
If I were in their shoes, I would be miffed to be labeled as a pretender for the national title.
It would imply skepticism that I have a reasonable shot at winning.

NaVi · Aug 31, 2015

YesWay said:
The best argument for interpreting it that way... is one line... spoken in one Hollywood movie... by Terry the dockworker (played by Marlon Brando)...?

Seriously?

Please come up with one instance of "pretender" used by a native english speaker with a positive connotation.

YesWay · Aug 31, 2015

golden411 said:
If I were in their shoes, I would be miffed to be labeled as a pretender for the national title.
It would imply skepticism that I have a reasonable shot at winning.

Of course you'd be miffed, because of the way you interpret the word pretender.

I understand your interpretation, no need to put the same thing in different ways... how about you address some of the other stuff I have said instead:

YesWay said:
the various respectable dictionaries that do not even include the "where others disagree" clause in their definition of "pretender" (the clause that your argument hinges on).

YesWay said:
how your interpretation of "pretender" is so different from "contender" that it warrants describing it vehemently as "not at all similar" or indeed "completely opposite"

NB. In order to be "not at all similar" or "completely opposite", saying that a skater pretends to the title would have to mean they have no chance at all

YesWay said:
using it in the context of figure skating, as in these forums... acknowledging a certain amount of disagreement and lack of consensus about whether particular skaters are contenders are not... seems entirely appropriate to me!

YesWay said:
Oh, and where did I say they were "interchangeable"? I have only said they have similar meanings and that "pretender" has been used appropriately in these forums.

sorenkay said:
Please come up with one instance of "pretender" used by a native english speaker with a positive connotation.

I already did.

shiroKJ · Aug 31, 2015

The English word pretenders.....while I've personally never heard it used in the context of "contender" in common english, I have definitely seen it used in *older* literary works as a positive connotation.

All connotative words heavily depend on the experience and history so there can be discrepancies. Many words in the english language has changed its common meaning over time so in many cases you really have to take the authors intentions and context into consideration. :think: Although it should be noted that words like "pretenders" will almost always be taken at value judgement (another example : "immature").

ice coverage · Aug 31, 2015

Totentanz said:
I'm afraid the competition here will bury the chance of qualifying to JGP final of some pretenders: Sakhanovich, Higuchi, Mihara or Tennell. ...

Totentanz said:
Oops! Yeah I meant contenders actually.

Totentanz said:
My mistake. But obviously those whom I mentioned are the biggest contenders of JGP final. Not pretenders.

And I guess, that poster Dobrin Fan mentioned above is the reason why I did this mistake.

English is my foreign language but pretending something really sounds negative to me. Sorry for this innocent mistake of my confusion.

YesWay said:
Actually it's a valid use of the word "pretender", whether English is your first language or not...!

Look it up in the dictionary - it has more than one meaning, one of which is very appropriate, and is similar to "contender"...

YesWay said:
I am a native speaker of English too, and I equally strongly disagree with your assertion that they are "not at all" similar.
In this context, they are very similar. ...

YesWay said:
... Quite apart from that, I don't see how your interpretation of "pretender" is so different from "contender" that it warrants describing it vehemently as "not at all similar" or indeed "completely opposite". The way you have put it seems more similar, than disimilar to me. And using it in the context of figure skating, as in these forums... acknowledging a certain amount of disagreement and lack of consensus about whether particular skaters are contenders are not... seems entirely appropriate to me! ...

PS.

And IMO, it is a disservice to non-native speakers of English to suggest that the words are as different in meaning as you are making out, or that people have been using the "wrong" word in their posts. Because my view is, they have been using a perfectly appropriate word (and possibly more appropriate than "contender" if we accept that "pretender" acknowledges some disagreement or lack of consensus)

Oh, and where did I say they were "interchangeable"? I have only said they have similar meanings and that "pretender" has been used appropriately in these forums.

(1) Totentanz her-/himself has said twice that s/he meant to say "contenders" -- as opposed to pretenders. And Totentanz has agreed that pretender has a different meaning.
In my first post in this thread, I already said that what happened with Totentanz was an innocent mistake. While reiterating that I am not criticizing Totentanz, I will note that s/he has conveyed that pretender was the wrong word for the concept that s/he had in mind.
(Again, it was an innocent mistake. And we all are humans, and we all make mistakes.)

(2) It is undeniable that you have strongly expressed your opinion that the words are "very similar" (the emphasis is yours, not mine).
To me, your posts were tantamount to suggesting that the words are interchangeable. But I never claimed that you used the word "interchangeable."

(3) I stand by my posts that for Americans, the two words have very different connotations.

(4) I will stop hijacking the thread now.

noidont · Aug 31, 2015

Pretender as in pre-tender, naturally means someone who was or was supposed to be (most likely) the king or some such thing and now has to strive for it again. It could be said, say, that Mirai Nagasu is a pretender of an Olympic spot, which would be correct, despite the undertone most likely not obvious to casual user of the English language....Con-tender, on the other hand, alludes to something "together", as in a lot of people are "contending"(striving together) for the same spot. The reason the word "pretend" means what it means today is probably because most "pretenders" never claimed the thing they claimed they were supposed to have...

I myself am not a native speaker of English, but I would assume people who tend to confuse these two words are native speakers of latin-based languages. Pretender as a verb does have firm meanings of "claim" in those languages (as claim something wrongfully taken away), which is distinctively different from the English meaning of the word "pretend".

dorispulaski · Aug 31, 2015

http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/american-thesaurus/pretender

American Thesaurus

American English: pretender
A pretender to a position is someone who claims the right to that position, and whose claim is disputed by others. pretenders...a pretender to the throne.

It is interesting that the Oxford based thesaurus (I.E. British) has the more neutral interpretation.

Compare contender

noun
= competitor, rival, candidate, applicant, hopeful, vier, contestant, aspirant • Her trainer said yesterday that she would be a strong contender for a place in the British team

In American boxing parlance, in a championship fight, there is the reigning champion, and the challenger who is referred to as a Contender, which is what the Brando character is referring to.

Note the usage of both contender and pretender in the following

http://www.contendersboxing.com/boxing/

Why a real boxing workout? (And not some pretender in Spandex at the Y): 1. Fitness: At Contenders, you can’t fake a jump rope, a heavy bag, or a speed bag. You WILL get in shape. 2. Stress Relief: There is no better way to rid yourself of this killer than physical exertion like only boxing provides. 3. Self Defense: When you complete the program, good luck to the person who tries to test you! 4. 1-on-1 Training: This is not a class, we believe that 1-on-1 training is the best way you can learn this sport.
Q. Do you have to get hit? A. Certainly not. The running, equipment, weight room, focus mitts, and the double end (and other bags) are more than enough to keep you occupied. But, if you are interested in sparring, or taking boxing even further, there are amateurs, pros, trainers, and even business men and women who are more than happy to oblige. Q. Are there shower facilities and clean towels? A. Absolutely. • All experience levels welcome. • Ages 10 & up

Another example of Contender used positively
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/06/sports/jimmy-bivins-top-boxing-contender-dies-at-92.html?_r=0

And of Pretender used Negatively

"Ernest Hemingway: Literary Giant and Boxing Pretender"
http://www.thesweetscience.com/arti...hemingway-literary-giant-and-boxing-pretender

And in American Politics

http://www.nj.com/opinion/index.ssf/2015/07/during_phony_war_of_primaries_pretenders_pander_to.html

During 'phony war' of primaries, pretenders pander to far-out fringes of Democratic, Republican parties

In American usage, a synonym for pretender these days would be "poseur," not contender.

The real contenders and most likely general election opponents, Democrat Hillary Clinton (almost surely) and Republican Jeb Bush (probably) have stayed mostly in the wings. The stage at the moment belongs to the pretenders, Democratic Sen. Bernie Sanders and Rick Santorum, Chris Christie and Donald Whatzisname among the Republicans.

Back to entries...I can always be distracted by bright, shiny things, like discussions about word meanings.

:hijacked:

witcher · Sep 1, 2015

"Contender" reminds me "container". :laugh:

NMURA · Sep 1, 2015

Sakhanovich is moved out of Austria. She says in Poland.

In this case, Mihara should be there as planned.

RemyRose · Sep 1, 2015

NMURA said:
Sakhanovich is moved out of Austria.

Yes!

sunnystars · Sep 2, 2015

does anyone know who's replacing Serafima here?

RemyRose · Sep 2, 2015

sunny_stars said:
does anyone know who's replacing Serafima here?

Pervushkina

invisiblespiral · Sep 2, 2015

DobrinFan said:
Pervushkina

Why is Pervushkina here?

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