Novice Junior Senior Age Limits

CaroLiza_fan · Sep 19, 2015

A couple of days ago, I was watching the Lombardia Torphy Advanced Novice Ladies SP, and it turned out that it was the 15th birthday of one of the girls taking part.

As you can compete at Senior level at 15, this prompted me to ask what ages are eligible for Advanced Novice. Golden was as usual very efficient in providing a link to the relevant rules, and I summarised what it said as follows:

CaroLiza_fan said:
... So, if I am interpreting the whole of the first page right, to be a Novice, you have to be at least 10, but less than 15.

This age range is split in 2 at Basic level. But if you are good enough, you can go into Advanced level at any age within the Novice range. ...

Between us, we managed to answer my original question. But, it started me thinking further.

To compete at Junior level, you have to be at least 13, but less than 19. And to compete at Senior level, you have to be at least 15.

All these age ranges can be summarised as follows:

10 ≤ Basic Novice A > 13
13 ≤ Basic Novice B > 15
10 ≤ Advanced Novice > 15
13 ≤ Junior > 19
15 ≤ Senior

…on the previous 1st July.

So, given these age ranges, I was wondering:

Is it possible to skip levels?

For example, can you jump straight from Basic Novice A to Junior? Or from Basic Novice B to Senior? Or from Advanced Novice to Senior?

(I am assuming that Basic Novice B skaters can skip the Advanced Novice level and go straight to Juniors, otherwise they wouldn't be able to continue competing when they reach 15)

And, if it is possible to skip levels, can you think of anybody famous that has done it?

CaroLiza_fan

gkelly · Sep 19, 2015

CaroLiza_fan said:
So, given these age ranges, I was wondering:

Is it possible to skip levels?

Yes.

Keep in mind first that these age limits and the definitions of the novice levels apply to international competitions only.

National federations may adopt them for domestic competitions exactly as the ISU has defined them, or they may have different rules, and different names for the middle levels, within their own competitions.

The actual skating rules for novice competition may differ between countries as well. For example, last I knew the US and Canadian novice short program requirements were somewhat different from the ISU advanced novice requirements and also somewhat different from each other -- which gets a bit tricky when skaters cross the border to compete at club competitions.

And it's mostly skaters from small federations in Europe who compete internationally at novice level. Because there are a lot of different countries in Europe within relatively easy travel distance of each other, and many with small skating communities with only enough skaters to hold small competitions, if any, at each level, international competitions in Europe can serve a similar function that club competitions serve in Canada and the US. The ISU novice rules, designed to standardized rules for these lesser internationals and also to offer guidance to new federations looking to organize their domestic competition structure, are relatively new. More established federations in the 20th century had already developed their own rules for levels below junior. And those (such as the US and Canada) where the needs for domestic novice competition were different than the needs of smaller European federations chose not to change their domestic rules to match the ISU recommendations.

Also, skaters often compete at a different level domestically than they do internationally.

Most novices, even the promising ones, in the US, for example, never get an opportunity to compete internationally. When the US does send to novice international competitions, it's often skaters who distinguished themselves at US Nationals at the junior level but are too young for junior international competition.

I'm most familiar with the US system. There the competitive levels are Senior, Junior, Novice, Intermediate, Juvenile (and below that Prejuvenile, Preliminary, Prepreliminary, and No-Test). Of those, only Juvenile and Intermediate have age limits for domestic competitions. It's test level, not age, that determines what level you're allowed to compete within the US. You could have a senior who is 10 or a novice who is 34. Of course, they wouldn't be allowed to compete internationally at those levels, assuming they were good enough to be considered for international assignments.

For example, in 2013 Vincent Zhou won the US junior championship, but because he was only 12 at the time (and would not be 13 in time for the 2013-14 JGP season), he was sent to the Gardena Spring Trophy at the Advanced Novice level (which he won).

The US has often also sent skaters who competed at the senior level domestically to JGP, Junior Worlds, or other junior international competitions, either because they were too young for senior internationals or because the senior assignments were going to other skaters who were either older and/or higher ranked.

Competing at different levels in the same year, one domestically and one internationally, is a bit of a disadvantage because the skaters need two versions of their programs. But if it's a choice between that or not competing internationally at all, most are willing to adapt the programs.

And, if it is possible to skip levels, can you think of anybody famous that has done it?

I don't know offhand of someone who competed novice internationally one year and then senior internationally the next year without ever competing as a junior, although it's likely some exist.

As for skaters skipping levels domestically, one who comes to mind is Deanna Stellato, who won the US novice title in 1999 and then tested up to compete senior at 2000 Nationals. But internationally she competed junior that year (winning the JGP Final and taking silver at Jr. Worlds), so she didn't skip levels internationally.

Another from the same era was Nicole Watt of Canada. I understand that in the 1999 season she was competing at the Pre-Novice level (equivalent to Intermediate in the US and I guess to the Novice A/B international levels). Then, because she had started landing triples and because she expected that her skating career would be cut short by her juvenile arthritis, she moved up to Senior level for the 2000 season within Canada -- and ended up qualifying for Canadian Nationals and placing 4th. But her first international competitions were at Junior level.

So we can say that Stellato skipped Junior level within the US, and Watt skipped Novice and Junior levels within Canada. But neither of them skipped any levels internationally -- they started their international careers as juniors and then competed as seniors, and ended their careers not long after for health reasons.

CaroLiza_fan · Sep 19, 2015

gkelly said:
Yes.

Keep in mind first that these age limits and the definitions of the novice levels apply to international competitions only.

National federations may adopt them for domestic competitions exactly as the ISU has defined them, or they may have different rules, and different names for the middle levels, within their own competitions.

The actual skating rules for novice competition may differ between countries as well. For example, last I knew the US and Canadian novice short program requirements were somewhat different from the ISU advanced novice requirements and also somewhat different from each other -- which gets a bit tricky when skaters cross the border to compete at club competitions.

And it's mostly skaters from small federations in Europe who compete internationally at novice level. Because there are a lot of different countries in Europe within relatively easy travel distance of each other, and many with small skating communities with only enough skaters to hold small competitions, if any, at each level, international competitions in Europe can serve a similar function that club competitions serve in Canada and the US. The ISU novice rules, designed to standardized rules for these lesser internationals and also to offer guidance to new federations looking to organize their domestic competition structure, are relatively new. More established federations in the 20th century had already developed their own rules for levels below junior. And those (such as the US and Canada) where the needs for domestic novice competition were different than the needs of smaller European federations chose not to change their domestic rules to match the ISU recommendations.

Also, skaters often compete at a different level domestically than they do internationally.

Most novices, even the promising ones, in the US, for example, never get an opportunity to compete internationally. When the US does send to novice international competitions, it's often skaters who distinguished themselves at US Nationals at the junior level but are too young for junior international competition.

I'm most familiar with the US system. There the competitive levels are Senior, Junior, Novice, Intermediate, Juvenile (and below that Prejuvenile, Preliminary, Prepreliminary, and No-Test). Of those, only Juvenile and Intermediate have age limits for domestic competitions. It's test level, not age, that determines what level you're allowed to compete within the US. You could have a senior who is 10 or a novice who is 34. Of course, they wouldn't be allowed to compete internationally at those levels, assuming they were good enough to be considered for international assignments.

For example, in 2013 Vincent Zhou won the US junior championship, but because he was only 12 at the time (and would not be 13 in time for the 2013-14 JGP season), he was sent to the Gardena Spring Trophy at the Advanced Novice level (which he won).

The US has often also sent skaters who competed at the senior level domestically to JGP, Junior Worlds, or other junior international competitions, either because they were too young for senior internationals or because the senior assignments were going to other skaters who were either older and/or higher ranked.

Competing at different levels in the same year, one domestically and one internationally, is a bit of a disadvantage because the skaters need two versions of their programs. But if it's a choice between that or not competing internationally at all, most are willing to adapt the programs.

I don't know offhand of someone who competed novice internationally one year and then senior internationally the next year without ever competing as a junior, although it's likely some exist.

As for skaters skipping levels domestically, one who comes to mind is Deanna Stellato, who won the US novice title in 1999 and then tested up to compete senior at 2000 Nationals. But internationally she competed junior that year (winning the JGP Final and taking silver at Jr. Worlds), so she didn't skip levels internationally.

Another from the same era was Nicole Watt of Canada. I understand that in the 1999 season she was competing at the Pre-Novice level (equivalent to Intermediate in the US and I guess to the Novice A/B international levels). Then, because she had started landing triples and because she expected that her skating career would be cut short by her juvenile arthritis, she moved up to Senior level for the 2000 season within Canada -- and ended up qualifying for Canadian Nationals and placing 4th. But her first international competitions were at Junior level.

So we can say that Stellato skipped Junior level within the US, and Watt skipped Novice and Junior levels within Canada. But neither of them skipped any levels internationally -- they started their international careers as juniors and then competed as seniors, and ended their careers not long after for health reasons.

Thank you so, so much for your comprehensive reply, gkelly. :bow:

Apologies for not thanking you sooner. I decided to wait until after today's competitions were over before I read your answer, so that I could properly digest it. And I am so glad I did. It was fascinating to read! :agree:

I was very surprised that different federations are still using different rules. I thought everything would have been standardised with the ISU rules by now.

Yeah, having different rules would make it very complicated for skaters that have to cross borders just so that they can compete regularly. Hence, why I thought that the rules would be standardised by now.

I'll be honest with you, it is only since I started doing the detailed Fan Fests over the summer that I started to get a bit of an idea of the Novice levels. But, it was only when I read that document Golden linked to that I got a real understanding.

But, for any levels lower than that, I haven't a clue!

For a start, I think they are badly named. For example, you would think that "Intermediate" would come between "Junior" and "Senior". But it is actually below the Novice levels.

Reading through your list of the names of the levels used in America, they are actually quite sensible names (although, "Prepreliminary" is a very funny word!) Over here in Europe, we have "Chicks" and "Cubs". Like, how do these names relate to anything?! When I see the word "Chicks", I automatically think girls. And when I see word "Cubs", I automatically think boys. But, both these names are used for levels for both girls and boys. So, I'm lost.

Again, it was only when I started doing those detailed Fan Fests that I came across skaters competing in different levels internationally than they do domestically. But, I never understood the reasoning behind this.

Well, I suppose you could say that something similar happens in Russia, where we regularly see the Junior skaters competing in both Junior and Senior Nationals. But that is a different situation.

And funny you should bring up the complication of having to have 2 versions of your programmes if you are competing at 2 different levels in the same season. Because that is what I keep thinking about when I see these Russian Juniors competing in Senior Nationals. It must be very confusing trying to remember what to do and what not to do, especially if it is using the same music.

Aha! The American system being based on tests rather than age explains a lot. I can't remember who it was (I think it was actually somebody well known! :slink:

), but a couple of years ago I came across a guy in his 30's who was competing both as a singles skater and as part of a partnership, and he was competing at different levels in each (I think it was Senior in one, and Novice in the other. But which category was at each level, I can't remember!)

Finally, the 2 stories you used as examples at the end were very interesting, and were VERY effective at demonstrating pretty much everything you brought up earlier in the discussion!

I really enjoyed both the videos you linked to. Both girls were so impressive! If I had to pick a favourite, though, I think I would pick Watt. I just got more of a feeling for her programme than I did for Stellato's. Although, that may be because the Canadian commentators were talking a lot less than their American counterparts, and so you got to hear more of the music...

Such a shame they both ended up retiring through injuries so soon into their international careers. Because they were both clearly great talents.

So, as well as for your very informative answer to my question, thank you so much for bringing these 2 girls to my attention, gkelly! :bow:

CaroLiza_fan

Alex D · Oct 1, 2015

Very informative, thank you!

Novice Junior Senior Age Limits

CaroLiza_fan

MINIOL ALATMI REKRIS. EZETTIE LATUASV IVAKMHA.

gkelly

CaroLiza_fan

MINIOL ALATMI REKRIS. EZETTIE LATUASV IVAKMHA.

Alex D

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