Pairs... where do we go?

P44 said:

I don't think anyone has really noticed that the pair category is the least popular.
Even in Japan, where there are so many good skaters, there are few participants in pairs

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Japan has issues that many other countries don't - limited rink availability (this applies even to singles skating) and the fact that most males who take up figure skating are of small build (even among a generally short/slim population - I am only 5ft4in and many top male skaters are shorter than me!). There are taller/bigger Japanese men, but they are highly unlikely to take up figure skating. I've always wondered whether the federations should recruit taller boys from ice hockey clubs for pairs and ice dance. But boys often grow in their mid to late teens, so a tall 12-year-old may not grow up to be a tall 20-year-old, and obviously 20 is far too late to switch to pairs skating. This is one of the reasons why Japan has to resort to importing pairs and dance men from overseas.

Sai Bon said:

Japan has issues that many other countries don't - limited rink availability (this applies even to singles skating) and the fact that most males who take up figure skating are of small build (even among a generally short/slim population - I am only 5ft4in and many top male skaters are shorter than me!). There are taller/bigger Japanese men, but they are highly unlikely to take up figure skating. I've always wondered whether the federations should recruit taller boys from ice hockey clubs for pairs and ice dance. But boys often grow in their mid to late teens, so a tall 12-year-old may not grow up to be a tall 20-year-old, and obviously 20 is far too late to switch to pairs skating. This is one of the reasons why Japan has to resort to importing pairs and dance men from overseas.

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Matteo Guarise swithed from roller skating to ice when he was 20-something... Yes - he was a pair skater in roller skating but still roller skating is different from ice one...

Sai Bon said:

This is one of the reasons why Japan has to resort to importing pairs and dance men from overseas.

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I think adding to this, there would be difficulty in finding suitable coaches and obtaining funding for all the training costs.
It also seems quite difficult to get Japanese citizenship, say if you wanted to compete at the Olympics. (I believe Francis Boudreau-Audet helped to earn the Olympic pairs spot for Japan but ultimately could not take it up in PyeongChang.)

One thing I was wondering about is that the pairs tickets in this year's 4CC seem less expensive than the other events - is this because the event has a shorter duration?

Dreamer57 said:

It also seems quite difficult to get Japanese citizenship, say if you wanted to compete at the Olympics. (I believe Francis Boudreau-Audet helped to earn the Olympic pairs spot for Japan but ultimately could not take it up in PyeongChang.)

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Naturalization laws are certainly also a problem in terms of expanding or maintaining both pairs and ice dance in many countries, at least to the extent that the Olympics is the summit all teams hope to reach, and one of the theoretical benefits to skating for a smaller fed is easier access to that. Even the big federations regularly bring in outsiders (see, e.g., Canada's 2019 dance podium, where all three couples were 50% imported), but it's often especially difficult to find two strong, compatible talents from a small country or a country without a strong tradition in a given discipline.

I think it's possible to switch later from single skating (or roller skating) to pair skating, but of course it's more difficult and the skaters needs more time to reach the high-level. For example, Morgan Ciprès switched to pairs at 20, Vanessa James at 21, Matteo Guarise at 23, Valentina Marchei at 28... Compared to russians who switch to pairs in their sweet teenage, they begin with a handicap, but at the end it's possible...

CanadianSkaterGuy said:

I think lowering the base value of quads was a bad move. Pairs need to train safely obviously but they need to push the sport forwards. At least SBS jumps should be harder. Would love to see the next Olympic champs/top 3 have a quad in their arsenal and a SBS jump that's harder than a SBS triple salchow (which has been around for decades). I do find that skaters are getting more creative with their music selections so that's a positive, that warhorses are slowly dying (a bit).

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I disagree, respectfully. Case in point: Aljona Savchenko and Bruno Massot. I believe they've illustrated a way of moving the sport forward, even while paring back the difficult jumps. Aljona tried, with both Robin and Bruno, to include the throw 3Axel in programs. She kept getting injured, which meant no skating for weeks, which meant then, as she said, I think in a TSL interview, that she then had to work hard just to get a double back.

Finally, Aljona and Bruno took the throw 3Axel out in 2017-18 (at least from Skate America forward), and their free skate took a gigantic leap forward. So that everything they did, they did well. Every lift was beautiful, the SBS were exquisite because of their unison and matching technique, the lifts were innovative (my favorite was the Tilt-A-Whirl lift), Christopher Dean choreographed, so every turn and beautiful movement was emphasized and had its own "moment." They did all this without ever looking hurried or rushed. Their SBS spins were so exquisite that audiences spontaneously applauded. All of this took a huge amount of work (Aljona's short time of coaching K/K illustrates this) -- she and Bruno worked very, very hard to make every movement communicate even better to the audience, to refine the programs by looking at each other more, for instance. I remember Bruno saying that after the Olympics; I think it was in an IceNetwork interview.

RobinA said:

The side by side jumps are already too hard. Pairs is a splatfest of same-looking programs full of hideous, how-hard-can-we-make-it lifts.

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There are still a number of how-hard-can-we-make-it lifts, but I think the number of hideous-looking ones is diminishing. In the higher ranks, I think pairs have been quietly changing this. This year, I've noticed a difference, which I love and applaud so much. Even some of the dreaded catch-foot variations in lifts are looking prettier to me. It may be that choreographers are subtly influencing this trend. Or maybe coaches, or the pairs themselves. Either way, I'm encouraged.

I don't think there are as many same-looking programs this year. Maybe because the music selections have been more varied. I also think pairs like Ashley Cain and Timothy Leduc are broadening the field. They're following their hearts and making the most of their lines, extension, unison and musicality, all their strengths. If people don't like to watch an unconventional pair like C/L, I can understand because I never warmed to Duhamel/Radford as pairs skaters, although I like them very much as people. But I absolutely love to watch C/L, they've become my favorites. Also, remember that James/Cipres also are a somewhat unconventional pair who have big-time come into their own in the last couple of years, especially this year IMO. And Vanessa pointed out just last week that their experience together over 8 years has gotten them to this.

Pairs are still my favorites; and as was pointed out upthread, the field was very crowded last year at Olympics and Worlds. 2018-19 pairs are just beginning their journey.

CanadianSkaterGuy said:

I think lowering the base value of quads was a bad move. Pairs need to train safely obviously but they need to push the sport forwards. At least SBS jumps should be harder. Would love to see the next Olympic champs/top 3 have a quad in their arsenal and a SBS jump that's harder than a SBS triple salchow (which has been around for decades). I do find that skaters are getting more creative with their music selections so that's a positive, that warhorses are slowly dying (a bit).

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SBS jumps are already getting harder. This seems to be the most likely direction of raising the technical difficulty of the sport. We have skaters with a triple flip which nobody seems to notice (Pavliuchenko/Khodykin) and Mishina/Galliamov about to go Senior with three triples in the free skate. Kostiukovich/Ialin also have three triples but they are a question mark because of Polina's age and puberty. If you look deeper in Russian juniors there are new pairs with both 3F and 3Lz. Not surprising considering the wealth of jump talent in ladies. It'll trickle down. And in Russian pairs these days you do not get anywhere if you splatfest. There are enough of those who don't.

vorravorra said:

SBS jumps are already getting harder. This seems to be the most likely direction of raising the technical difficulty of the sport. We have skaters with a triple flip which nobody seems to notice (Pavliuchenko/Khodykin) and Mishina/Galliamov about to go Senior with three triples in the free skate. Kostiukovich/Ialin also have three triples but they are a question mark because of Polina's age and puberty. If you look deeper in Russian juniors there are new pairs with both 3F and 3Lz. Not surprising considering the wealth of jump talent in ladies. It'll trickle down. And in Russian pairs these days you do not get anywhere if you splatfest. There are enough of those who don't.

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I didn't see a splatfest on US Nationals aswell... And in North America we have pairs who are trying 3-2-2 and 3-3-2 jump combos aswell...

Hevari said:

I didn't see a splatfest on US Nationals aswell... And in North America we have pairs who are trying 3-2-2 and 3-3-2 jump combos aswell...

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Isn't 3-2-2 standard already? 3-3-2 is an advancement, only Stolbova/Klimov managed it once. Current Russian Juniors seem to find Euler combos easier to do that 3-3-2.

vorravorra said:

Isn't 3-2-2 standard already? 3-3-2 is an advancement, only Stolbova/Klimov managed it once. Current Russian Juniors seem to find Euler combos easier to do that 3-3-2.

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i didn't see lots of pairs doing 3-2-2 combos until recent... Two-jump compos were "mainstream"

Hevari said:

Matteo Guarise switched from roller skating to ice when he was 20-something... Yes - he was a pair skater in roller skating but still roller skating is different from ice one...

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Nirti said:

I think it's possible to switch later from single skating (or roller skating) to pair skating, but of course it's more difficult and the skaters needs more time to reach the high-level. For example, Morgan Ciprès switched to pairs at 20, Vanessa James at 21, Matteo Guarise at 23, Valentina Marchei at 28... Compared to russians who switch to pairs in their sweet teenage, they begin with a handicap, but at the end it's possible...

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Just thought that here would be an appropriate place to post a follow up post to something I posted in the British thread a few days ago.

But first, here is the link to the post I was referring to:

https://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?75162&p=2394685&viewfull=1#post2394685

To summarise, Adam Jukes is an experienced Pairs skater who appeared on last week's episode of "Britain's Got Talent" doing a routine with his new partner, Rosie Axon, who had only been skating for 3 months. They did loads of Adagio moves, and got through to the next round.

The routine was done on roller skates. Adam's background is as a Pairs skater on ice, whereas Rosie's background is as an acrobat. I don't know if there are plans for her to progress onto the ice.

Rosie and Adam's audition was the final clip featured on Friday night's episode of "Gogglebox" (if you are unfamiliar with the show, it is basically recording people's reactions to things that were shown on TV during the week. For a more detailed description, see the Wikipedia page). And every single person was very impressed with what they were seeing.

Which begs the question - if the general public are so impressed with Pairs skating when they do see it, why is it by far the most obscure of the four "main" categories of figure skating amongst the general consciousness?

As I said, Rosie and Adam were doing Adagio moves in their audition. So, is this what makes the difference? Is "normal" Pairs skating just not exciting enough to grab the attention of the general public? Does it take doing even more dangerous moves to make it interesting to non-specialist fans?

As we specialist fans know, "normal" Pairs skating IS dangerous. Sorry for bringing up Ashley Cain's accident again, but because it was this season it is still fresh in our minds and so is a good way of making the point. We don't want to make it more dangerous for the skaters just for the sake of it.

So, I don't feel comfortable with the idea of a sport has to be perceived to be to be "dangerous" to make it interesting.

But, I do feel that something has to be done to change the general public's perception of Pairs skating. To make it as interesting and, as a result, as well known as the other "main" categories.

The question is... what?

CaroLiza_fan

CaroLiza_fan said:

Which begs the question - if the general public are so impressed with Pairs skating when they do see it, why is it by far the most obscure of the four "main" categories of figure skating amongst the general consciousness?

As I said, Rosie and Adam were doing Adagio moves in their audition. So, is this what makes the difference? Is "normal" Pairs skating just not exciting enough to grab the attention of the general public? Does it take doing even more dangerous moves to make it interesting to non-specialist fans?

As we specialist fans know, "normal" Pairs skating IS dangerous. Sorry for bringing up Ashley Cain's accident again, but because it was this season it is still fresh in our minds and so is a good way of making the point. We don't want to make it more dangerous for the skaters just for the sake of it.

So, I don't feel comfortable with the idea of a sport has to be perceived to be to be "dangerous" to make it interesting.

But, I do feel that something has to be done to change the general public's perception of Pairs skating. To make it as interesting and, as a result, as well known as the other "main" categories.

The question is... what?

CaroLiza_fan

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I think part of the problem with Pairs (and I say this even though it is my favourite of the 4 disciplines) is that most pair teams tend to do very similar elements in competition, often in a similar order, partly due to the downgrading of quad twists/throws and making the other throws more similar in value, which may make the discipline appear 'boring' to a casual viewer. I wonder if the changes to the lift rules/removal of one spin in the free skate were an attempt to make it appear more exciting? EG: look more dare-devil in the exits and entries of lifts, remove the repeat of the short program spin in the free, which may be seen as 'boring'. Plus, although many of the top teams have great on-ice chemistry and really achieve the 'two skating as one' idea, this can occasionally be lacking, making it perhaps look as though there are two singles skaters who happen to be on the ice at the same time. Personally, I enjoy seeing some of the more technical/less romantic chemistry-driven programs (eg: Duhamel/Radford's Muse), I can see why some viewers may not find it as appealing, especially in comparison to ice dance, where many of the programs have a clearer storyline/clearer emotional connection between the skaters.

Equally, many of the 'exciting'/adagio moves are only allowed appear in shows or exhibitions, and even then are not attempted by all teams (quite rightly, I would rather see a team performing safely than attempting a risky show move they are not comfortable with). I expect many casual viewers don't realise exhibitions exist (I certainly didn't until the 2014 Olympics) and shows are not televised/produced in all countries.

As for trying to make it more popular, I totally agree that branding pairs skating as 'dangerous' wouldn't do it any favors, although we know there are inherent risks involved.
I guess the first step would be perhaps to increase its visibility in shows (eg: US Stars on Ice has no Pairs team, Canadian SOI only has 1) which may make the skaters and discipline more popular/more of a household name and in turn encourage skating fans to follow the discipline more?
Another issue is that there are fewer pair teams, so some competitions don't have a pairs division, which closes off another route to its gaining popularity (eg: on the JGP last year not all events had a pair competition, so the audience didn't get to see any pairs).
Maybe younger skaters are not being encouraged to pursue pairs as much as the other disciplines? After all, it does require the skaters to both be good singles skaters (for jumps/spins) as well as having the right height ratio to be successful, as well as certain mindset to want to either be thrown across the ice/throw someone else across the ice!

Apologies for the long post. In summary, I really hope pairs does become more popular, it's always been my favourite discipline and I would love for more people to realise how awesome it is!

I don't know, but I've been wondering the same thing. Pairs is by far my favorite discipline, even at the junior levels. I do think the monotony of the same steps in the same order makes a difference. I really side-eye the poster who talked about how pairs people are too ugly for people to want to watch--pairs physiques is one of the reasons why I enjoy it more! I do think a lot of pairs lack the artistic refinement that we see in dance and even singles, which probably makes a difference as well.

And I have to admit, pairs is freakin' dangerous. No skating discipline is danger-free, but pairs has so many heart-stopping moments that it's on its own plane, I think. I've questioned watching myself, wondering if I should support it, but in the end I just adore pairs and so keep watching. But stuff like that might keep people away too. I know that if I were a parent of a skater I would probably not allow my child to try pairs, and I'm sure I can't be the only person who feels like that.

Oh, I love pairs because of how cool it is. I don’t watch ice dance, don’t get the attraction of it. Fingers crossed more pairs will enter the competitive pool in the coming years.

Princessroja said:

And I have to admit, pairs is freakin' dangerous. No skating discipline is danger-free, but pairs has so many heart-stopping moments that it's on its own plane, I think. I've questioned watching myself, wondering if I should support it, but in the end I just adore pairs and so keep watching. But stuff like that might keep people away too. I know that if I were a parent of a skater I would probably not allow my child to try pairs, and I'm sure I can't be the only person who feels like that.

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My mother refuses to watch pairs competition due to it. She is too afraid something happens during twists and lifts.

I think the reason there aren’t as many pairs is because it’s less popular within the figure skating sphere, not in the rest of the world. My friends, who don’t follow skating, all knew about pairs, but had never heard of ice dance and were frankly baffled by the idea of figure skating without jumps. Within the fs community, though, it is less followed and some people view it as just unsuccessful singles skaters.

maggieanne said:

Within the fs community, though, it is less followed and some people view it as just unsuccessful singles skaters.

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I don't know that it's so much the least "followed" in the sense of spectatorship, except insofar as that people within the FS community are more likely to follow elite skating in disciplines they have also trained in.

More that it's the discipline in which the fewest figure skaters have first-hand experience, because it's so hard to find appropriate partners and arrange training times, and it's also the most reliant on extreme size difference between partners. Some excellent skaters will never be able to try pairs because they just don't have the right body type.

And of course the danger factor also discourages skaters from attempting the discipline even if they are the right size and could find a potential partner nearby, and discourages rinks/skating clubs from allowing pair moves on general practice sessions.

I do find it strange that, in the USA at least, ice dance seems to have become the more popular discipline of the two. Ice dance is ballroom on ice, while pairs is, I suppose, acrobatic dancing on ice.

In other winter sports (snow-boarding, for instance) fans seem to gravitate to bigger and bigger feats of athletic derring-do. Not so in ice skating, it seems.

Mathman said:

I do find it strange that, in the USA at least, ice dance seems to have become the more popular discipline of the two. Ice dance is ballroom on ice, while pairs is, I suppose, acrobatic dancing on ice.

In other winter sports (snow-boardong, for instance) fans seem to gravitate to bigger and bigger feats of athletic derring-do. Not so in ice skating, it seems.

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It probably helps that ice dance is the most consistently successful discipline for the US.

believed said:

It probably helps that ice dance is the most consistently successful discipline for the US.

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True.

It will be interesting to see whether that factor will also carry over to singles. At the moment the U.S. has some outstanding men, while women are lagging behind a little. Maybe this will make men's skating more popular with the fans going forward.