Raising minimum age for seniors from 15 to 17?

TallyT · May 30, 2020

icestorm said:
It is funny to see how people advocating long careers immediately forget about this goal if price of this longevity is increasing number of spots per country.

Not forgetting anything of the sort, just pointing out that a solution which is simply not gonna happen is not a solution.

flanker said:
BTW there are many sports ruled by several strong countries, who have much more entries than 3.

Do said sports expect people to sit and watch for 7 or so hours at a stretch??? Maybe so (my brother will watch test cricket all day and a lot less happens in that) but I very much doubt the ISU and TV networks which pay for rights has faith that enough of us will. And then there's the IOC.

flanker · May 30, 2020

TallyT said:
Not forgetting anything of the sort, just pointing out that a solution which is simply not gonna happen is not a solution.

Do said sports expect people to sit and watch for 7 or so hours at a stretch??? Maybe so (my brother will watch test cricket all day and a lot less happens in that) but I very much doubt the ISU and TV networks which pay for rights has faith that enough of us will. And then there's the IOC.

E.g. 48 skaters is still doable, after all at junior worlds it is usual number of skaters. Of those 48 could be 6-8 skaters from the strongest country and still the diversity could be provided.

Skatesocs · May 30, 2020

Yeah I'm curious how many ISU are willing to allow? Again maybe different thread, but TallyT did show the numbers are increasing. Introducing a hard 48 for now should still be fine? Russia/Japan can get 4 spots each (assuming they win them). Probably it won't be possible beyond a point due to TV rights without doing something or the other (they chose to cut spots, I get it; perhaps a better solution than cutting short program time), but 48 could work?

icestorm · May 30, 2020

TallyT said:
Not forgetting anything of the sort, just pointing out that a solution which is simply not gonna happen is not a solution.

If solution not gonna happen, then ISU "small feds" doesn't really need a solution ( i. e. long careers).

TallyT · May 30, 2020

Skatesocs said:
Yeah I'm curious how many ISU are willing to allow? Again maybe different thread, but TallyT did show the numbers are increasing. Introducing a hard 48 for now should still be fine? Russia/Japan can get 4 spots each (assuming they win them). Probably it won't be possible beyond a point, but 48 could work?

7-odd hours, folks. Seven-odd hours. Even the Japanese might not sit still for that (unless the ISU find a way to bring Yuzuru into frame every half hour, poor man). I point out again, the cut in the men's free was because they are trying to reduce the length of the competitions.

Skatesocs · May 30, 2020

TallyT said:
7-odd hours, folks. Seven-odd hours. Even the Japanese might not sit still for that (unless the ISU find a way to bring Yuzuru into frame every half hour, poor man). I point out again, the cut in the men's free was because they are trying to reduce the length of the competitions.

No I saw that of course, I know they cut off LP times, and why. But still, your post did suggest they're increasing numbers, right? So how high are they willing to go? And if it becomes too high, will they cut off SP times?

flanker · May 30, 2020

Skatesocs said:
Yes, but for whatever reason we never see that... Which sports do you have in mind?

Skiing is typical example. And not just mass start disciplines, in ski jumping you can have more participants from one country than 3.

TallyT · May 30, 2020

Skatesocs said:
No I saw that of course, I know they cut off LP times, and why. But still, your post did suggest they're increasing numbers, right? So how high are they willing to go? And if it becomes too high, will they cut off SP times?

Heaven only knows, I'm sure the ISU don't :popcorn:

Skatesocs · May 30, 2020

Skatesocs said:
No I saw that of course, I know they cut off LP times, and why. But still, your post did suggest they're increasing numbers, right? So how high are they willing to go? And if it becomes too high, will they cut off SP times?

The counter to this I guess is that they seemingly increased TES mins mid season because there were too many groups in the ladies SP... Don't know if because of broadcasting or it's own financing, this is what happened. Still, why arbitrarily 40 last season was OK, and 48 can't be?

flanker said:
Skiing is typical example. And not just mass start disciplines, in ski jumping you can have more participants from one country than 3.

So can you answer all the other questions that popped up here? Broadcasting time for skiing competitions, small feds in it, etc?

Mawwerg · May 30, 2020

ancientpeas said:
This will kill small feds. If their only chance is to go to the Olympics once every four years the drop off rate will be huge.

Are Europeans and Four Continents outside of small feds interest? Probably then it can be Worlds every two years, Olympics and for the last year of the quad it can be some happy small feds party.

flanker · May 30, 2020

Skatesocs said:
So can you answer all the other questions that popped up here? Broadcasting time for skiing competitions, small feds in it, etc?

I don't have an answer for any question in the world, regardless the question is legitimate or not

Some of them, perhaps. And of course I'm aware that we don't live in a perfect world and no realistrically possible solution will be completely satisfying for everyone. My starting points are:

1. Top competitions should provide enough entries for the best skaters in the world. There are sports where it works. Remember that e.g. in ski jumping it is not only about how long the jump is, the jumper receives points for the style as well.

2. There are several solutions how to fulfill this, at least partially:
- One possibility is world standings - let's say first 10/15/20 skaters in the world standings should have free entry to the worlds regardless the nationality, the rest of the spots would be filled by nationality according to previous results.
- other possibility would be transforming the GP series into qualification for worlds/europeans/4CC - more competitions with more participants, e.g. some CS competitions would be transformed into the part of GP or rather worlds qualification, according to the results they would qualify for the worlds similarly to how skaters are qualified for the GPF.
- or medalists from the last worlds would have free entry and the rest would be qualified by the current system. This could be the least problematic variant to organize, so why not to start with that.

Skatesocs · May 30, 2020

flanker said:
I don't have an answer for any question in the world, regardless the question is legitimate or not Some of them, perhaps. And of course I'm aware that we don't live in a perfect world and no realistrically possible solution will be completely satisfying for everyone. My starting points are:

1. Top competitions should provide enough entries for the best skaters in the world. There are sports where it works. Remember that e.g. in ski jumping it is not only about how long the jump is, the jumper receives points for the style as well.

2. There are several solutions how to fulfill this, at least partially:
- One possibility is world standings - let's say first 10/15/20 skaters in the world standings should have free entry to the worlds regardless the nationality, the rest of the spots would be filled by nationality according to previous results.
- other possibility would be transforming the GP series into qualification for worlds/europeans/4CC - more competitions with more participants, e.g. some CS competitions would be transformed into the part of GP or rather worlds qualification, according to the results they would qualify for the worlds similarly to how skaters are qualified for the GPF.
- or medalists from the last worlds would have free entry and the rest would be qualified by the current system. This could be the least problematic variant to organize, so why not to start with that.

Thanks. I actually do like the idea of GP qualifications. Some feds already have this as a soft requirement for their skaters, but of course you are talking about the field as a whole being held to the standard of GP qualifications.

I think it can be even better if the field were whittled down further by using Europeans/4CCs in that case.

Jeanie19 · May 30, 2020

Why can't the GPF be 12 spots? I would love it. And it would be great to see. It's not just about the ladies field. The grand prix has some luck involved, easy and hard assignments. It would level the field and be more fair. And the twelfth entry could still win at the GPF.

Please explain why it can't be 10 or 12 spots, 2 flights. Really I think it would be the most exciting event.

Skatesocs · May 30, 2020

Jeanie19 said:
Why can't the GPF be 12 spots? I would love it. And it would be great to see. It's not just about the ladies field. The grand prix has some luck involved, easy and hard assignments. It would level the field and be more fair. And the twelfth entry could still win at the GPF.

Please explain why it can't be 10 or 12 spots, 2 flights. Really I think it would be the most exciting event.

To be honest, if it did happen we can be ready for even more manipulation :laugh:

I probably want it to happen just so I can see what new bs will emerge.

Jeanie19 · May 30, 2020

Skatesocs said:
To be honest, if it did happen we can be ready for even more manipulation I probably want it to happen just so I can see what new bs will emerge.

I don't care about the bs. I will just enjoy the competition.

Spirals for Miles · May 30, 2020

ancientpeas said:
I believe that the solution here is to change the GPF. I think it should be 12 skaters with no limit on country participation. There is no way, in my opinion, that the isu is going to change the format of the WC. Sure Russia might vote to change the numbers but no one else is going to. It's a dead in the water issue. Rather than complaining about the perceived unfairness (which as I have pointed out has been an issue for awhile) we need to look for a out of the box solution and the GPF seems to be the best solution.

Failing that maybe the Russians or Japanese can come up with some kind of made for TV event that has an invitational field. Heck if I had the money I'd do one for Pairs. It would mostly be Chinese and Russians with a handful of Canadians but it could be cool. The question is and always will be money.

I like this idea. But, I think that the number of GP spots would need to be expanded if we want to make the GPF the solution to the "highest SB competition needed problem." If skaters who would have otherwise qualified for the GP, by having a SB well within the top 24, can't get spots because there aren't enough for their country, there's still a problem, in my opinion.

Yes, Tarusina later was injured, and couldn't skate on the JGP and retired. But, we could have at least seen Gubanova on the GP this season, but did not.

el henry · May 30, 2020

I am loving the expanded GPF idea. Honestly, six skaters, in comparison to most of our comps, seems awfully short. And folks who feel as though they don't get enough of the best scoring skaters would get more. Win-win (And Jason would qualify :laugh:

) IMO, if there are skating shenanigans, there are just as many in qualifying for Worlds as qualifying for GPS, and in scoring them, so that's a wash.

Worlds is the Olympics in off-years, and in 40 years of watching skating, Worlds and Olympics have always meant to me, invite all the countries of the world. And I think a three person limit per country is a good one. I'm still cool with that

ancientpeas · May 30, 2020

How about this: Expand the GPF and give Korea and Italy an actual GP? 8 GP events then everyone gets a shot.

Hosting sites for WC are never going to go for a 7 hour FS. They will do what they did at the 2017 worlds where only 16 pairs made the free skate because they only want to do one ice resurface.

Also with a focus on the GP season that would help older skaters. Say you are a 20 year old Russian lady who places 5th at their nationals. You aren't going to Europeans or Worlds but you can make the GPF and place well and get some money and exposure. So you can take a bit more time off and maybe go to school or work more hours (to make money to continue skating) until you have to have ramp it back up in May. This gives your body more time to recover and injuries to heal.

Skatesocs · May 30, 2020

If we are sure hosting sites won't go for seven hours and therefore it's not a solution, how can one say the ISU would be fine with revamping an entire event and add more GPs and call that a solution instead? More GPs would mean there would need to be an entire rescheduling of the GP season... It's a more difficult answer to the question as opposed to simply adding an hour. All 6 participants get prize money at GPF, so I assume that's 24 more prizes they need?

I do not know why 48 isn't a good number. As mentioned, JWC uses it. And it just makes a nice symmetry in having half of them advance to the LP.

Pantsu · May 30, 2020

Personally i adore JGP series, so many competitors from all other the world. Such a pleasure to watch them, different schools, all kinds of skill level from the very top to beginners
And when i look at the senior GP, i don't understand what happened to all those juniors. Why can't they compete there. It doesn't make any sense
Aren't they supposed to promote the sport, where is the inclusion

Raising minimum age for seniors from 15 to 17?

TallyT

flanker

Skatesocs

icestorm

TallyT

Skatesocs

flanker

TallyT

Skatesocs

Mawwerg

flanker

Skatesocs

Jeanie19

Skatesocs

Jeanie19

Spirals for Miles

Anna Shcherbakova is my World Champion

el henry

Go have some cake. And come back with jollity.

ancientpeas

The Notorious SEW

Skatesocs

Pantsu

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