2006/2007 Grand Prix

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Hockeyfan - You did a lot of work on this. Thank you. But why would Korpi (an example) receive two GPs. I only know her from Calgary where she skated well. I think she just missed top 10, but what else has she been in? I do have other skaters from your list which I would need a clearer explanation, but I'd appreciate an explanation of this one so I can then think of the others.

Joe

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

MM - I don't see how you can say the Host Country can select the three that they want? I think the ISU will give them the list of approved skaters who qualify for the GPs. Kwan will not be on that list.

We don't know anything about Sasha for next season yet, but she would qualify if she wants for SA. and the USFS may not want both Sasha and Kimmie in the same competition until Nats.

Now pray tell me, how do they pick skaters for only 1 GP? I think Jennie got one GP in COR last year. Did Russia send her an invite?

Joe

 

[hockeyfan228]

Hockeyfan - You did a lot of work on this. Thank you. But why would Korpi (an example) receive two GPs. I only know her from Calgary where she skated well. I think she just missed top 10, but what else has she been in? I do have other skaters from your list which I would need a clearer explanation, but I'd appreciate an explanation of this one so I can then think of the others.

Joe

All skaters in the top 12 are guaranteed 2 GPs. Korpi was 10th.

Where it gets a little complicated is how a skater/team in the top 12 is replaced. There's a hierarchy. What is a little strange is that the first replacement for Cohen, who was top six at Worlds, should she hold to not competing in GP -- and you never know, given the number of people who revoked their retirement announcement or possible kinda/sorta did -- are top six finishers at the Olympics who didn't compete at Worlds. Arakawa has announced her retirement, so that would mean Slutskaya, if she's interested. However, if all top six skaters at Worlds compete in GP, Slutskaya is not guaranteed a spot at all, and she wouldn't get to replace someone in 7-12 at Worlds who decided not to compete. (Of course, she'd get the spot(s), but wouldn't be guaranteed by the selection process.)

Then one spot is guaranteed to the top 24 ISU ranked skaters who don't already have two, to any skater not in the ISU top 24 who has a personal best for 2005-6 in the events that count, and to any junior skater who won a medal at Jr. Worlds or Jr. GPF and is moving to the senior ranks. (Unless they are pairs, and then they can compete in both.)

 

[Mathman]

Korpi got 10th at Worlds.

Rule 2.2 (a): "Skaters/couples who have placed 7 - 12 ... at the most recent World Championships will be guaranteed to be selected for two Grand Prix of Figure Skating events."

There seem to be a lot of rules about the draw for the "seeded" skaters (only 6 in each discipline). As for which particular events the other qualified skaters (such as Korpi) will be assigned, I presume the ISU will just assign them as they wish (?).

 

[Mathman]

MM - I don't see how you can say the Host Country can select the three that they want.

Well, it has always been that way, and in these new rules for 2006-2007 that Chuckm posted in the first post on this thread, there is nothing that changes this procedure.

I could be wrong, though. But Chuckm and Ptichka, who are experts on these things, have both agreed with this interpretation above (posts 13 and 14). So that gives me confidence that this is correct.

 

[hockeyfan228]

But Chuckm and Ptichka, who are experts on these things, have both agreed with this interpretation above (posts 13 and 14). So that gives me confidence that this is correct.

The pertinent paragraph, 2.2.d, is very clear:

A maximum of three (3) skaters/couples in each discipline from the host country may skate in the host country’s event. This includes skaters/couples selected according to category 2.1 and 2.2 above. If the country chooses to not exercise its option for the three (3) skaters/couples in any discipline from its own country, the remaining slot(s) must be filled from categories 2.2 a) and b) above.

There are no restrictions on the host countries' selections of their own skaters if they choose three, except for the limit of three (and the seed requirements -- i.e., not being able to choose Meissner and Cohen). If the host country chooses skaters from the host country who are guaranteed spots ("category 2.1 and 2.2 above") then they count toward the total of three. If they don't -- for example, USFS chooses Suguri (from 1-3), Asada (replacing Cohen) (from 4-6), Rochette (from 7-9) and Kostner (from 10-12), Liu, Sebestyen, and Leung from top 24 ISU ranked, and Karademir and Volchkova from the top 75 ISU rankings -- they could choose Stephanie Rosenthal, Megan Williams-Stewart, and Danielle Kahle as the US entries. Or if Kwan wanted to skate, they could choose Carter (if she's still skating) from the top 75 rankings, and choose Kwan as the 13th skater, with Rosenthal and Williams-Stewart filling out the roster.

If the host chooses less than three from its own country, only then must it choose from skaters who are guaranteed spots (except for Junior medallists). The US did this in 2005-6 for Skate America Men, where they chose Goebel and Lysacek and not a third US man.

The host nations choose the skaters who will appear in the events, not the ISU. The host chooses its three first. Then the 1-3 seeds that aren't chosen by their own host nation get chosen in succession by the other host nations. For example, if the US choses Meissner among its three, Russia chooses Sokolova (moves up because Cohen doesn't skate), and Japan chooses Suguri. Then France, China, and Canada would each in succession choose one of the three. (In what order, I don't know.) Same with 4-6: Japan chooses Asada. Then US, Canada, China, France and Russia choose from Nakano (2), Meier (2), and Asada (1). And 7-9 and 10-12. After that, the skates who are guaranteed one, etc.

What I've noticed in the past is that the Federations are sure to choose skates from other host nations to fill out their roster.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

HF - From what you just wrote. The power of the Host Country remains. They could select Kwan if they want to. Is that correct?

Also, I think that was not a good move to select only 2 men in 2005/06 Skate America. If the USFS had the power, why not let Scott Smith skate it? Seems they are not honing their skaters.

Joe

 

[hockeyfan228]

HF - From what you just wrote. The power of the Host Country remains. They could select Kwan if they want to. Is that correct?

The USFS could select Kwan either as one of the three "pick any US skater" or under the provision that allows former ISU Championship medallists to return to competition. In the first case, 12 slots could be filled. In the second case, 13 spots could be filled, with the USFS getting only two "pick anyone" spots in addition to Kwan. If the USFS did not choose Kwan among its SA choices, up to two other host nations could extend invitations under the former champions provision.

Also, I think that was not a good move to select only 2 men in 2005/06 Skate America. If the USFS had the power, why not let Scott Smith skate it? Seems they are not honing their skaters.

Joe

I agree. They sent Smith to Nebelhorn the month before SA, where he recorded a relatively monster score. If Nebelhorn had been among those events that counted toward calculating the personal best, Smith would be one of the alternates to replace a retiring 7-12 skater, and would be guaranteed at least one spot based on a top 24 PB.

And it's not as if a massive number of skaters from Nebelhorn, Nepala, etc. would flood the ranks of top 24 PB if they were included.

 

[chuckm]

HF -...I think that was not a good move to select only 2 men in 2005/06 Skate America. If the USFS had the power, why not let Scott Smith skate it? Seems they are not honing their skaters.

Joe

THREE men skated at 2005/2006 Skate America: Evan Lysacek, Tim Goebel and Dennis Phan. Dennis had won the 2004-2005 JGPF Championship, but was injured and had to withdraw from 2005 Nationals, so the US gave him a Skate America slot. He finished 7th, the same as Weir at SC and Savoie at CoC. Scott Smith was 9th at 2005 Nationals and did not get a GP slot; he was assigned to Nepela and won the gold medal.

 

[hockeyfan228]

Doh -- I'm an idiot.

The entries sorted him up top (for whatever reason), so that only Goebel and Lysacek are alphabetized under "USA."

Also, it's the 75 PB scores (not ISU rankings) from whom the remaining slots are filled after the guaranteed are chosen.

By skating at Nepala, no matter how well he did, Scott Smith does not qualify for a 75th PB, because that competition doesn't count towards PB calculation.

As a JGPF medallist, Phan would have qualified for a GP spot in another competition. Why would the USFS use a spot for an unknown (to the general public) skater who had other opportunities, instead of a fine skater who had none?

 

[Sylvia]

As a JGPF medallist, Phan would have qualified for a GP spot in another competition. Why would the USFS use a spot for an unknown (to the general public) skater who had other opportunities, instead of a fine skater who had none?

I think the JGPF/Jr. Worlds medalist criteria is new this year? Last year, Dennis Phan's ISU ranking at this time was #31 (mostly due to his JGPF win in Dec. 2004) and even though Phan withdrew from 2005 Nationals due to injury, Smith's 9th place finish at 2005 Nationals probably did not help his cause (since the USFSA's International Committee appears to weight most recent Nationals placements heavily when determining skater priority re. international assignments). Hopefully Scott Smith will somehow end up at one GP this fall at least.

 

[Mathman]

There are no restrictions on the host countries' selections of their own skaters if they choose three, except for the limit of three (and the seed requirements -- i.e., not being able to choose Meissner and Cohen)....

For example, if the US choses Meissner among its three,...

So are you saying that Skate America can choose Meissner OR Cohen, but not both, because they are both seeded in the top six?

 

[chuckm]

Theoretically, Meissner and Cohen shouldn't be chosen because both were in the top three seeded spots. Of the top 6 seeds, each host has to pick one seed from the top 3, and one seed from the bottom 3. However, last season, NHK chose Ando and Suguri, who had placed 5th and 6th at Worlds 2005, so I'm not sure that rule is followed scrupulously. It may be that the host picks take precedence.

 

[Mathman]

Thanks for all the help. I'm getting there, slowly but surely.

Now...about the "draw"...is it the skaters whose names are drawn, or is it the hosting federations.

That is, do they put the name "Kimmie Meissner" in the hat, and then whichever event draws her name gets her?

Or do they put "Trophee Eric Bompard" in the hat, and if they are drawn first then they get first pick?

 

[Theatregirl1122]

The pertinent paragraph, 2.2.d, is very clear:...

If they don't -- for example, USFS chooses Suguri (from 1-3), Asada (replacing Cohen) (from 4-6), Rochette (from 7-9) and Kostner (from 10-12), ...

Russia chooses Sokolova (moves up [into 1-3] because Cohen doesn't skate),...

Yes, after reading 2.2d I think it is quite clear.

So if Asada replaces Cohen in the top 6 (because of PB), Asada is considered seeded 4-6 (getting 2 GP at that point) and Sokolova is considered seeded 1-3 for selection purposes? I suppose that makes sense although I hadn't thought about it.

I'm glad I wasn't mis-remebering the rules about 1-3 not skating against each other and 4-6 not skating against each other. So this would mean that China, as a host country, will have to choose between Zhang and Zhang and Pang and Tong, correct?

I wonder what order the federations select skaters in. Thanks to everyone for the clarifications. The ISU is odd.

 

[hockeyfan228]

I'm glad I wasn't mis-remebering the rules about 1-3 not skating against each other and 4-6 not skating against each other. So this would mean that China, as a host country, will have to choose between Zhang and Zhang and Pang and Tong, correct?

I would have thought so, but as chuckm pointed out, Japan chose two Ladies from the 4-6 category last year, so the host nation may be able to choose any skater/team it wants, and bear the wrath of the others.