2015-16 Grand Prix Final Ladies Free Skate

[OniBan]

Turning an obscene amount on the ice...like 180 degrees before going airborn.

Everyone does it but some REALLY do it. I personally don't mind a body pre-rotation as long as the feet are reasonable. It's pre-rotation and under rotation on landing that makes me grit my teeth. :gaah:

aah, thanks for the clarification. Would you happen to know/ have any vids that can illustrate this in detail? Would really like to see what it looks like

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

aah, thanks for the clarification. Would you happen to know/ have any vids that can illustrate this in detail? Would really like to see what it looks like

Oh my....I do

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9c2cSxjB6v0

I've made a lot of jumpamatron videos.....just look at my youtube account No video more than Satoko from last year clearly shows a jump pre-rotated nearly 270 degrees and landed almost 180 degrees short. All in all she rotated about 360 degrees on the ice and got full credit in this particular event as being a full triple jump. Unfortunately the quaility is very low but the point is made I think. I don't always do jumpamatrons showing poor technique and most celebrate figure skating and show the parts of programs I really liked if you venture to my page and watch some of the other videos.

Here is a thread I started to focus on slow motion editing of jumps. The first post has a lot of skaters jumps edited to focus on their jump technique.
http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/sh...otion-Jump-Editing-(AKA-Sam-s-Jump-a-ma-tron)

 

[LiamForeman]

Stuck On You is a low key comedy classic! And FYI Streep was playing herself in a cameo role, so at least pick a bad film she was in for more than one scene.

I loved Stuck on You!! And I agree, Meryl didn't even take billing, she just did it for fun! I'd be hard pressed to come up with a movie where she wasn't fabulous. She-Devil is also a favorite of mine.

 

[OniBan]

Oh my....I do

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9c2cSxjB6v0

I've made a lot of jumpamatron videos.....just look at my youtube account No video more than Satoko from last year clearly shows a jump pre-rotated nearly 270 degrees and landed almost 180 degrees short. All in all she rotated about 360 degrees on the ice and got full credit in this particular event as being a full triple jump. Unfortunately the quaility is very low but the point is made I think. I don't always do jumpamatrons showing poor technique and most celebrate figure skating and show the parts of programs I really liked if you venture to my page and watch some of the other videos.

Here is a thread I started to focus on slow motion editing of jumps. The first post has a lot of skaters jumps edited to focus on their jump technique.
http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?56090-Jump-Analysis-Slo-mo-vids&highlight=

thanks so much for this! I understand that Satoko don't get as much GOE from her jumps compared to other girls, but I also will reserve judgment on some the harsh criticisms on her jumps here until I've actually understood what it looks like, as well as gain insight from the judging side (on how they perceive and judge such jumps). Some skaters rotate at the height of their jumps (thus giving the sense of 'slowing down' in mid air), and some rotate as soon as they are airborne to gain far more efficient rotations - and I can visualize how these are done. It's the 'pre-rotations' that I don't get, (because if they had done it before getting airborne, wouldn't the marks from their skates show on the ice at take-off, the way underrotations do?)
Will check out the videos - thanks again for making them! XD

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

thanks so much for this! I understand that Satoko don't get as much GOE from her jumps compared to other girls, but I also will reserve judgment on some the harsh criticisms on her jumps here until I've actually understood what it looks like, as well as gain insight from the judging side (on how they perceive and judge such jumps). Some skaters rotate at the height of their jumps (thus giving the sense of 'slowing down' in mid air), and some rotate as soon as they are airborne to gain far more efficient rotations - and I can visualize how these are done. It's the 'pre-rotations' that I don't get, (because if they had done it before getting airborne, wouldn't the marks from their skates show on the ice at take-off, the way underrotations do?)
Will check out the videos - thanks again for making them! XD

That makes sense. Make up your own mind. I just do the videos because they are fun to do and I hope what I provide gives people something to consider. Whether they agree with me or not is irrelevant.

 

[Shayuki]

On the topic of pre-rotation: Not like this is a surprise to anyone, but Miyahara pre-rotated all of her jumps that I checked by over 180 degrees.(Examples: one two three) I wouldn't be surprised if this is the case for almost all her other jumps, as well. I checked Medvedeva and Radionova for reference. Radionova actually seems to pre-rotate the least, while Medvedeva pre-rotates quite a bit as well(Not as much as Miyahara, however). Radionova's might not even be 90 degrees, pretty impressive.

 

[David21]

I don't understand all the criticism about Satoko's jumps being tiny. They are excellent. She is tiny so why is she supposed to jump as high as the bigger girls? They are high enough for her to finish her rotations and that's what matters.

Being tiny is not an excuse to have small jumps. Poor height should be deducted in the GOEs. That said, at least her jumps are less underotated than e.g. Asada's.

 

[Khoai]

Being tiny is not an excuse to have small jumps. Poor height should be deducted in the GOEs. That said, at least her jumps are less underotated than e.g. Asada's.

Miss Karen Chen is tiny and her jumps are huge. Don't forget Midori Ito as well.

 

[David21]

Now that we know Mao was really sick, and if it was anything like how Alex Shibutani described his own stomach flu, then it's kind of amazing that Mao did as well as she did.

Knowing this, I think that the outlook of Mao's near-future competitiveness is fairly bright. The only problem is that she only has 10 days to recover for Nationals, and that might not be enough time for her to get back into shape. I hope she'll just go for an easier layout at Nationls just so she can secure a spot for Worlds.

And people, let's just drink this in. She got her lutz ratified for the first time here!!! Here is a skater who, in her whole entire 10-year career, had never had a 'real' ratified, until at GPF this time!! That's amazing!! And she was sick when this happened, which makes it even more incredible.

Her salchow has been stable for a very long time now, and her triple-axel is better than ever, so we just now have to wait for the lutz to stabilize. The future is really bright!

To say that her "future is really bright" conidering she just finished last place at this competition is already very funny, but you're not even right about the lutz. Her fans have told me before that she got her "lutz" ratified, and the next competition with a better technical specialist, it was back to being a flutz again. Btw, the "lutz" at this comp was underrotated and two-footed so I also fail to see what was so great about this jump.

 

[Perdita]

Oh my....I do

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9c2cSxjB6v0

I've made a lot of jumpamatron videos.....just look at my youtube account No video more than Satoko from last year clearly shows a jump pre-rotated nearly 270 degrees and landed almost 180 degrees short. All in all she rotated about 360 degrees on the ice and got full credit in this particular event as being a full triple jump. Unfortunately the quaility is very low but the point is made I think. I don't always do jumpamatrons showing poor technique and most celebrate figure skating and show the parts of programs I really liked if you venture to my page and watch some of the other videos.

Here is a thread I started to focus on slow motion editing of jumps. The first post has a lot of skaters jumps edited to focus on their jump technique.
http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/sh...otion-Jump-Editing-(AKA-Sam-s-Jump-a-ma-tron)

Hi. While I do disagree with you about Satoko's jumping technique, I very much appreciate what you do. I really enjoy your channel actually. I'm curious to know how you count the revolutions. Do you think you can somehow show that in your videos? Or explain it here? Because I watch your video and see that Satoko pre-rotates just about a half of a revolution and lands within a quarter, which is allowed within the rule.

I'm not a skater myself, and I learnt how to count jumps mainly in a Japanese blog which is run by an actual skater: http://xn--u9j9ec8bq1cwg6dugrj8841avl4e.net/未分類/回転不足の定義/. In a blog post in which she explains the jump revolutions, she uses this diagram using 3A as an example (sorry it's in Japanese): http://i0.wp.com/xn--u9j9ec8bq1cwg6...2013/12/cf8253a8eec1c8088b10000063a772801.jpg
She explains that the take-off and the landing are counted separately, each in reference to the direction of the jump. In the diagram, the arrow on the left signifies the jump direction. The circle on the bottom signifies the first revolution, which green part is the half revolution allowed for the take-off for 3A. So, for non-axel jumps, it's the opposite - the while part is the allowed half part (she notes that the take-off is not examined strictly). Then, the circle on the top shows the last (third) revolution, the deeper green part for UR zone and the yellow green part for the safe zone (regardless of axel or not). She also carefully explains that the counting is not strictly based on the blade's angle, but it's rather a combination of examining the blade's angle, the body movement, the orbit curved on ice and the ice splash.

I don't mean that this blog is the authority, but it seems quite trustworthy and according to that, Satoko's jump looks ok to me. I would like to know the way you do as it may enlighten me - do you count them differently? If so, could you explain it?

 

[viennaskater]

Poor Mao. Poor Frank.

Why? It's not as though she hasn't had a successful career. And I'm sure Frank Carroll has plenty of bucks in his bank account and will never be short of skaters to train.

 

[viennaskater]

LOL - have to agree with German Eurosport about the tights! Medvedev's a beautiful skater, gorgeous dress -- and then she wears those hideous, orange tinged tights half over her boots completely spoiling the image.

It doesn't help that she has very spindly legs too. Not a good look.

 

[vilandra]

Mao Asada doesn't have to prove anything. Her name speaks for herself. "Winning is everything" doesn't apply to her.

The fact that she doesn't go back to her 13-14 SP layout means she wants MORE. She has already perfected the 3 triple SP with a WR. And now she wants that all 4 triple program which all jumps are ratified and have no edge call (yes, she's got the ratified lutz now).

Same for LP. She wants to repeat and perfect an 8 triple program. As for me, she has already perfected it in the Olympics. For sure that no ladies in the field right now can do what she did. I respect every decision of hers and hope for the best.

Congrats all the winners!!! Well deserved.

 

[fallingsk8er]

The PCS scores are being maxed out by influence of Russian and Japanese federations. They are working together as the most powerful bloc in figure skating politics now and they are being supported behind the scenes by the IOC.

With PCS maxed out the differences are minimal compared to TES and so technical score is really the only thing to decide the competition. In Ladies the Russian babies are not vulnerable there whereas they might be on PCS compared to more mature skaters like Gracie, Ashley, perhaps Yuna and Mao if they come back or stay around until 2018. The same thing is going on to support Hanyu in men's in case Chan decides to come back and challenge him.

This is all simply a case of Russian federation and Japanese federation teaming up together as a bloc and rigging the scoring system in their favor.

Expect more of the same. And yes I have inside information about this that will one day come to light.

So, the powerful federations must have also made Gracie 2 foot her 3-3 combo, pop her triple flip twice, step out of a triple lutz, and put both hands down on both her triple toe loops in the LP ?

 

[mustafakent]

On the topic of pre-rotation: Not like this is a surprise to anyone, but Miyahara pre-rotated all of her jumps that I checked by over 180 degrees.(Examples: one two three) I wouldn't be surprised if this is the case for almost all her other jumps, as well. I checked Medvedeva and Radionova for reference. Radionova actually seems to pre-rotate the least, while Medvedeva pre-rotates quite a bit as well(Not as much as Miyahara, however). Radionova's might not even be 90 degrees, pretty impressive.

Elena prerotates her toeloops more than a half tour and salchows almost/sometimes more than one tour.This is not good, unless you didn't count other skaters while you were comparing.

 

[jenaj]

Mao is 2 times world champion, not 3 times world champion. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6NjUBWuQBvw&spfreload=10

2008, 2010, 2014. Three times.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Elena prerotates her toeloops more than a half tour and salchows almost/sometimes more than one tour.This is not good, unless you didn't count other skaters while you were comparing.

Everyone pre-rotates Salchows......it's the nature of the jump. In many ways a Salchow is simply a back three turn into a double axel. When you look at pre rotation I think what needs to be judged is the blade and not the body. What should matter is how far the blade pre rotates and then look at if there is any under rotation. Just my opinion but if all of that adds up to less than 180 degrees then I say give the skater the benefit of the doubt. When I learned to do 720's on my snowboard the first thing people told me to do was to wind my body up prior to hitting the end of the jump and let my feet and board catch up to my shoulders after about a full turn around. It isn't that dissimilar with figure skating jumps. I've worked with a few skaters in the last year or two by making videos for them and the key to me seems to be in creating as much momentum going into the rotation before you actually leave the ice. Only a few skaters I know do triples though and that is a lot more energy and nobody I know can do delayed rotation except for maybe on an Axel.

 

[mustafakent]

Everyone pre-rotates Salchows......it's the nature of the jump. In many ways a Salchow is simply a back three turn into a double axel. When you look at pre rotation I think what needs to be judged is the blade and not the body. What should matter is how far the blade pre rotates and then look at if there is any under rotation. Just my opinion but if all of that adds up to less than 180 degrees then I say give the skater the benefit of the doubt. When I learned to do 720's on my snowboard the first thing people told me to do was to wind my body up prior to hitting the end of the jump and let my feet and board catch up to my shoulders after about a full turn around. It isn't that dissimilar with figure skating jumps. I've worked with a few skaters in the last year or two by making videos for them and the key to me seems to be in creating as much momentum going into the rotation before you actually leave the ice. Only a few skaters I know do triples though and that is a lot more energy and nobody I know can do delayed rotation except for maybe on an Axel.

You really didn't need to write that much I just wanted to say that Elena is not the best jump rotator in the field.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

K

 

[OS]

Ladies Figure Skating in 2015 as a whole is > than ladies figure skating in 2010 in my less than humble opinion. I am obviously a Julia uber and think her best performance was at euros 2013....I see scores surpassing it that I don't think are anywhere near on the same level but so what....its just a score. Some moments just aren't measured in points. YMMV.

Teal Dear; I honestly think the judges are better at keeping up with what's difficult, complex, and even beautiful much better than nostalgic fans who can't let go of previous idoltry

As a long life pursuer, practitioner, educator, patron and philosopher of the arts, and avid advocator on the importance of quality, originality, creativity in everything we do, live by on defining and accrediting what it means being world's bests, and the nature of what is truly an 'elite'. I couldn't disagree with you more!!

I would vastly prefer anything original, innovative, provocative, influential that will inspire and be thought provoking vs another manufactured pop fizz with zero nutrients, full of excessive fats, artificial flavours and colouring.

Excessive convoluted movements that abandon the basic premise of original thoughtful actualization or interpretation with genuine musicality and understanding of 'movements should not be for movements sake'. Unable to convey basis premise that movements should be astute and intrinsic as whole, quantity over quality just for some extra points sake cheapen the integrity of the any genuine quality piece of work. Things like 4 tanos in one program should not not be considered as quality, nor artistic. Having 5 jumps back to back after half way points defies the purpose of good choreography and reduce it to no more than a number crunching routine. Repeated prerotated tick boxed little jumps gaining similar score to the biggest and best 3lz3t in the field shows how broken COP is, if it is to truly assess Olympic ethos (faster, bigger, higher, stronger) quality properly. The little difference between 3lz3t from Gracie/Anna vs Satoko for example should be a frigging scandal. Inconsistent judging, inflation that get ignored and accepted (out of convenience for some), and the repeated offending pre rotation that failed to get punished unlike the UR shows the system's flaws are easily exploited, ignored, and broken. Far from trustworthy nor accurate tool to appraise the performance strictly and properly, unlike pre 2010 when there are more strict and rigorous guidelines in GOEs, and that skaters have to earn their PCS through actual delivery, consistently and build their scores organically slowly, steadily instead of now artificially and bloated wildly.... no more than a posturing exercise by the power feds.

None of the skater except the veterans like Mao and Ashley, truly owns their performance since they earned the cred with their distinctive established signature style. It should be worth something than a mere imitation. You just to look at Evgenia's exhibition to see she is very green around ears and she is a well packed skater that lacks the gravitas that a Mao Asada or Ashley have in their elements. These things have traditionally mattered in PCS appraisal but are largely overlooked all of a sudden out of convenience than showing a true picture. It is hardly about idolisation but being able to distinguish truth from deception and fabrication. The skating is not better, nor are the programs, it is the judging standard suddenly have changed. The field did overall inflated, if you can't distinguished truth from deceits, then you either havn't watch the skating very long, or have very little care for genuine artistic credibility and quality actualization. Things I thought should matter in the marking of PCS but alas no more... Drowning gulp gulp Jaaaaaack and Tanoing all the way, and tiny microscopic hops are apparently the golden standard.

Whether you like it or not. Maturity, Risk taking, Quality, Originality, Musicality, Creativity, Sophistication, Grace, Elegance, Power, Speed, Astute expression/interpretation, Good solid techniques should all matter in this sport and be part of the PCS impressions. The fact they are often missing even among the top tiers today despite having MUCH HIGHER score shows there's something totally off.