2015 Cup of China Ladies Short Program

[nagoya]

Great post, but don't feed the trolls. Mao could land 8 clean triples and score 160 and the haters would still hate her(even more), try to bash her by nitpicking her jumps, write only negative criticism etc. Some people rarely post here, except to bash Mao(or other jpn skaters) when she competes. It's weird, but it's true. The bots are still alive, look at the number of thumbs down in her videos, even when she hits, for example, 268 thumbs down for that wonderful JO performance: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kj4EyYCKvJQ
Anyway, Asada isn't perfect, she has problems like any other skater, but it's not like she gets away with it. Actually the contrary. She has to fight for every jump, every goe and every program component everytime.

Perfect explanation bravo!!!

 

[Mathman]

You and the tech caller. Oh wait...

:agree:

 

[Perdita]

There was an exhausting discussion on how to count jump rotations in some other thread few weeks ago, and I don't want to go into that debate again, but for those who think that Mao's 3loop got UR because of the take off, you should check the rule. Take off and landing are counted separately and cheating the take off will be counted as downgrade, not underrotation. And it's so rare for judges to call out the take off since the rule is quite lenient on this. So, since Mao's jump got UR, it's not about the take off but solely about the landing.

 

[rain]

I think judging was quite good tonight.

Mao skated effortlessly. She has the best skating skill in the current field, no doubt. But she is not invulnerable especially to clean Liza.

I thought Mao was a clear cut above in terms of presentation. This program and music fit her floating skating style like a glove and a year off doing shows has dramatically improved her musical expression.

But she is vulnerable technically. In spite of the planned difficulty, executed fairly well here, she was barely ahead of Hongo on the technical mark.

 

[David21]

My analysis for anyone who is interested.

Here is mine for anyone who is interested.

3A: Full BV should be given and yes it is fully rotated. I personally would be a little disappointed in any positive GOE for this jump due to the scratchy landing that outweighed the positive attributes. I would expect a judge would score this 0 to -1 on GOE. She can do better so lets save the positive GOE for those jumps.

The axel was very slightly underrotated but probably not enough for a > or a minus GOE.

3f-3lo: I think the loop was borderline at best. If it was my call alone I'd give it a UR because of the loop probably being beyond borderline by but I would love to see some good positive GOE on it. Maybe a +2. The loop in real time looks great and is the best part of the jump.

A jump doesn't deserve positive GOE because it "looks great" in real time. The flip was about 1/4 ur'ed, the loop even more. 3F+3Lo> GOE -2 would be correct IMO. (She barely got GOE -1).

3Lze: This is a very obvious edge call. Ding the BV and leave the GOE around 0 to -1 again.

Lutz was about 1/4 ur'ed with edge call so I can't see how she could get anything higher than GOE -3 (she got only one -3 and even only two -2).

 

[Blades of Passion]

A jump doesn't deserve positive GOE because it "looks great" in real time.

Yes it does. That's exactly why a jump deserves GOE. :hslap:

 

[David21]

Yes it does. That's exactly why a jump deserves GOE. :hslap:

Wrong. There are specific rules which say why a jump deserves plus or minus GOE. A jump can "look great" in real time and still deserve -3 GOE when it took off from the wrong edge and was underrotated.

 

[theteez]

Except that she had a visible large hook on the landing and clearly landed short.

So all those judges along with with video replay must be blind / really have faulty eye sight/ not qualified in in their job etc. and I suppose you are the utmost expert, qualified accredited judge who is naturally way more superior in your 'calls' than any of said ISU judges?

 

[Blades of Passion]

Wrong.

Not wrong, a jump "looking good" in real time inherently means it is showing qualities of good flow, amplitude, air position, etc.

A jump can "look great" in real time and still deserve -3 GOE when it took off from the wrong edge and was underrotated.

Nah, that's incorrect usage of GOE. Which the scoring system itself does have in the rules right now, yes. But no jump that is otherwise clean should ever receive -3 GOE just because of edge and rotation problems. If it was underrotated so much, then it is already inherently receiving a base value deduction. Same for the edge if it was an "e".

 

[karne]

So all those judges along with with video replay must be blind / really have faulty eye sight/ not qualified in in their job etc. and I suppose you are the utmost expert, qualified accredited judge who is naturally way more superior in your 'calls' than any of said ISU judges?

Oh, for heaven's sake. No, it just means that the tech panel were more lenient than I expected them to be. Frankly, I was dreading the call being 3A< because of the endless whinging and moaning in here about EVIL RUSSIAN TECH CALLERS that would have ensued and the obvious EVIL PLOT to get Mao by calling her 3A<.

Frankly, I thought it was, but I'm not a judge nor a tech caller, and they had access to better angles and super slo-mos and even frame-by-frame, and I'm sure they looked at it. So they gave her the benefit of the doubt on this one. It happens.

 

[loopy]

Looking back at the video's I really like Courtney's hair color, it gives her a more elegant look. Her skate was very good and I think it is my favorite of her senior performances. I do wish he had good crystals all over her dress, it looks like some have no sparkle - I think that would up the wow factor of her costume. You can see a marked difference in the glitter of it compared to Zijun it makes C's dress look flat. I think Courtney deserves the bling to match her performance.

Zijun was beautiful, I love her arms and hands when she skates.

Elena looked very strong, I enjoyed her program too.

What a great competition!

 

[wusswuss]

Welcome to the club, exactly the same happens with russian skaters (check what people said about Eugenia and Liza in the respective GP threads) - and most likely all top skaters, please dont think it is exclusive of Mao or jpn skaters =). There are always people who whine about terrible jump technique, 20 rounds of puberty, awful programs, too many / not enough transitions, lame music choices, not enough speed and blablabla.

This

 

[gravy]

Oh, for heaven's sake. No, it just means that the tech panel were more lenient than I expected them to be. Frankly, I was dreading the call being 3A< because of the endless whinging and moaning in here about EVIL RUSSIAN TECH CALLERS that would have ensued and the obvious EVIL PLOT to get Mao by calling her 3A<.

Frankly, I thought it was, but I'm not a judge nor a tech caller, and they had access to better angles and super slo-mos and even frame-by-frame, and I'm sure they looked at it. So they gave her the benefit of the doubt on this one. It happens.

Another tirade only you seem to have about an imaginary war against those EVIL RUSSIAN TECH CALLERS who just want to tear down skaters. In multiple threads, on multiple boards. I commend you! Very impressive on your insistency to convince us about how much we hate Russia!

 

[Mathman]

Wrong. There are specific rules which say why a jump deserves plus or minus GOE. A jump can "look great" in real time and still deserve -3 GOE when it took off from the wrong edge and was underrotated.

Accually, the rules are pretty clear on this. The judges are required to compute the positive GOE features first. Let's say they give her bullet points for good height and distance, good flow throughout, element matched to the musical structure, preceding steps -- whatever. So she starts with +2 GOE before errors. Now she gets -2 for "e" and -1 for <. Total GOE = -1. Lots of ways this can turn out.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Accually, the rules are pretty clear on this. The judges are required to compute the positive GOE features first. Let's say they give her bullet points for good height and distance, good flow throughout, element matched to the musical structure, preceding steps -- whatever. So she starts with +2 GOE before errors. Now she gets -2 for "e" and -1 for <. Total GOE = -1. Lots of ways this can turn out.

Especially now that GOE isn't required to be negative any more on edge calls

 

[Art&Sport]

My impressions based on watching the event after the fact, but in skate order so that I did not know outcomes ahead of time and could compare scores in real time with my own judgments:

Mao Asada was on fire. She was sure to be ahead of this field, but I love how she did not hold back on any of her weapons.

Again PCS are just wrong, particularly in a couple of glaring instances. No way Pogo should be ahead of Radionova on PCS by any amount. Yes, Radionova had a number of errors for which she was dinged, but her overall skating has improved. Her arms are not frantic, and she is taking her time. I love her dress and her choreography.

Pogo OTOH has not significantly improved. Yes, Pogo is not quite as slow and labored, but she is still somewhat slow and labored, and above all sloppy. Yes Pogo is a very pretty lady, but she should NOT be receiving PCS points for looking pretty and being a Russian who can crank out jumps with poor form. Even the Brit Eurosport guys were going so overboard calling Pogo "phenomenal." :shocked: The only phenomenal thing about her is how her looks mesmerize some people into thinking she's a fabulous figure skater. Pogo lacks any true sense of the music, and her arms are too flappy, added to her labored unconvincing performances. I would have rated Pogo no higher than 57+ overall in sp.

Zijun Li is so lovely and should be receiving higher PCS! Rika Hongo is a very consistent, unperturbed skater, but her TES and PCS are over-rated. Nagai, Satoka, and Mao are the best IMHO of the current Japanese ladies.

Karen Chen and Hannah Miller are better presentation-wise than Pogo and Hongo. Courtney Hicks has come a long way, and she is looking good this season. She does need to focus on fixing her technique issues with her arms and body positions coming out of a jump, as the Eurosport guys mentioned she has a bad habit of opening out or leaning back too soon (that's one reason why she missed doing a triple and settled for a double on her second jump in her opening combination). It will be nice to see if Courtney can continue to improve and eventually add the 3-axel she has been training.

 

[Krunchii]

I don't know why people are talking about pre rotation on the 3Lo for Mao, I remember on another thread somewhere here we deduced that for the 3Lo it just comes with pre-rotation? Someone had a slow-mo of Liza doing a fantastic 3Lo and even she pre-rotates somewhat.

 

[mirai4life]

don't you need to pre rotate 3LO in order to launch yourself into the air anyway. it seems to be the nature of this jump, no?

 

[iskate]

Mao's lutz took off from the wrong edge and was about 1/4 underrotated. Should have been < and GOE -3 so if anything, she was overscored.

Ah, good point, I didn't take the underrotation into account (I still don't think it deserved < though. It was borderline, should have been reflected in the GOE though, as it probably was). I would probably say -2 then. Still don't think it deserves to get the same GOE as a fall would though (but I guess that's just a problem with IJS that kind of isn't a problem though. As it rewards correct technique as opposed to aesthetics. So I guess I don't really know where I stand).

 

[largeman]

Yes (to krunchii and mirai4life). And Mao's "normal" loop and salchow takeoff (actually, flip and (f)lutz too, for that matter) are no more than 180 degrees pre-rotated - meaning the foot may be almost facing the "forward direction" when the toe pick leaves the ice - which is acceptable. The rule book doesn't say this anywhwere. But it's the reality.

To my eyes Mao's loop in the SP yesterday had just a bit more pre-rotation than usual (looked over 180 degrees) so total rotation ends up more short than usual as well. But however you count it it was between 1/4 and 1/2 short. So I have no problem with the > call.

I also don't think Mao's loop was wrongly called UR in Sochi. But I've seen non-UR 3F3Lo combos in her practices videos. I'm hopeful that she'll eventually land a clean one in competition.