2016 Four Continents Ladies Free Skate

[Li'Kitsu]

Your point is valid and I agree with you. For various reasons (lack of power, not her natural direction), she can't vault herself up with the toepick alone so she makes up for it by rotating with a lot of speed so she can avoid underrotations as much as she can - because underrotations are actually punished by the ISU and the prerotations are not visible in real time like some people have started to claim. That said, even though Mao's take-off is much clearer and you can actually see her leg pushing her body up, her toepick is still turning around to almost 180 degrees. Maybe not 180 degress but it looks close, thus she is also prerotating. And probably a lot of other skaters (who knows how many have gotten away with prerotating/underrotating in the 6.0 era). So if the ISU will ever introduce punishments for prerotations (which means not rotating enough revolutions in the air), most of the ladies' protocols will have > or >> calls. The way I see it, the ISU probably considers that the jump revolution is not the total revolutions completed in the air, like Perdita noted.

Oh Satoko definitely isn't the only lady who pre-rotates her jumps too much... she has more trouble with it than most and I think because her jumps are small it's more obvious for most people, but she's definitely not the only one. There's also the problem that pre-rotation in itself is normal on all jumps up to a certain point, so we're stuck with the question 'how much pre-rotation is allowed and how much is too much?'.
Despite that, I'd still like the ISU to start looking at pre-rotation and deduct for it. Not because I want skaters to end up depressed and sad at their low scores, but because I'm sure if more incentive was there, a lot of skaters could fix it and simply have better jumps (even if it would take a while for that, of course).

 

[ioanna]

Oh Satoko definitely isn't the only lady who pre-rotates her jumps too much... she has more trouble with it than most and I think because her jumps are small it's more obvious for most people, but she's definitely not the only one. There's also the problem that pre-rotation in itself is normal on all jumps up to a certain point, so we're stuck with the question 'how much pre-rotation is allowed and how much is too much?'.
Despite that, I'd still like the ISU to start looking at pre-rotation and deduct for it. Not because I want skaters to end up depressed and sad at their low scores, but because I'm sure if more incentive was there, a lot of skaters could fix it and simply have better jumps (even if it would take a while for that, of course).

Maybe that is why the ISU only looks at take-off edges in slow motion, because they are simple to judge. So if they started checking prerotations for every single skater they'd also be stuck with the question "how much prerotation is allowed", precisely because prerotation is normal to a certain point, especially in 3-3 combinations; and skaters jump according to their center of gravity, power, strength, all of which are different for everyone. Underrotations are much more visible in real time. I'm not making excuses for Satoko but unless the prerotations are obvious in real time, they won't get punished with downgrades or -GOEs. In the end, most of the skaters' scores are inflated and most of the "top" skaters get questionable GOEs for questionable jumps, and the judges mark edge calls only when it's convenient so no, it's not unfair that Satoko is getting the scores she gets, the judging in general is unfair.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

I made a quick video showing jumps from 5 different skaters that focuses purely on rotations. What I did was stop the video on the last frame that the blade was visibly still on the ice and then played them all at 50 percent until I stopped it again when the first frame that the blade touches down became clear by my judgement. I also put every jump in real time at the end so that we can easily see how they look to the naked eye too. It isn't perfect by any means but I think the idea is still fairly clear and opens up room for discussion.

If anyone wants to join me in discussing and scoring these jumps meet me over in the Jumpamatron thread. Follow this link. http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/sh...p-a-ma-tron)&p=1380211&viewfull=1#post1380211

 

[luckyguy]

Your mom has wonderful taste Interspectator!

When she is in her zone, there is not a woman in the world today, who can compete with Kaetlyn's PCS. Combine this with her HUGE jumps and her ability to sell a performance and she is truly a rare find in this sport.

Thanks for your important statement. I am on your side, but the judges have another opinion. Miyahara obtained for her program components in the FS 7 points more than Osmond! Even Hongo obtained a slightly better PCS than Osmond!

 

[Meoima]

I made a quick video showing jumps from 5 different skaters that focuses purely on rotations. What I did was stop the video on the last frame that the blade was visibly still on the ice and then played them all at 50 percent until I stopped it again when the first frame that the blade touches down became clear by my judgement. I also put every jump in real time at the end so that we can easily see how they look to the naked eye too. It isn't perfect by any means but I think the idea is still fairly clear and opens up room for discussion.
If anyone wants to join me in discussing and scoring these jumps meet me over in the Jumpamatron thread. Follow this link. http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/sh...p-a-ma-tron)&p=1380211&viewfull=1#post1380211

Thank you, it's so clear the jump issue now, people have reason to complain especially after this video.
But why 1/3 of the video is black?

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Thank you, it's so clear the jump issue now, people have reason to complain especially after this video.
But why 1/3 of the video is black?

When I rendered it I left the loop set point at the 7 min mark or something like that by accident. :

 

[chuckm]

Agreed. I had to think about that when that "Gracie is the most naturally gifted lady in this field" discussion happened in the SP thread. Honestly, I really don't see how Gracie is supposed to be superior to Kaetlyn as a skater. The only areas where Gracie is better are SS and spins. But IMO Kaetlyn has better jumps: great ice coverage, better transitions before the jumps, better flow with the music and most of all way better running edges coming out of the jumps, posture and extension on the landing and therefor better flow throughout. She also has more transitions in her programs, and even more importantly better transitions that actually do something for the music and choreography. She's at least equal to Gracie in CH and then definitely beats her in PE and IN. There's also the fact that Kaetlyn's lutz has improved to a point where it's actually cleaner regarding the take-off edge than Gracie's flip.
To put it short: I'd flat out say that clean Kaetlyn could/should beat a clean Gracie

What Gracie does have over Kaetlyn is less time out of competitions due to injuries which allowed her to cement herself as one of the leading ladies, which Kaetlyn couldn't do. Add a nice Frank Carroll bonus PCS boost to that and IMO it's clear why Gracie (unfairly) beats Kaetlyn in PCS.

Also, people need to stop bringing up Gracie "doesn't like 4CC" as an excuse for her skates here. If she doesn't like 4CC, then she doesn't need to go.

If Kaetlyn has such great flow coming out of jumps, then why has she fallen coming out of jumps so often this season?
And she has received frequent edge calls on the lutz so that problem has not been resolved:

Nebelhorn SP: 2f+3t<↓, 3z, 2a

SC SP: 3f+3t, 3z!, ↓fcsp (nc), 2a↓
SC FS: 3f↓, 2a↓, 3ze↓, 3lo↓, 3f+rep, 3s↓, 1a+2t

Nationals SP: 3f+2t, 3z!, 2a
Nationals FS: 3f, 2a+3t, 3ze, 3s, 2f+2t, 3s+rep, 2a+2t+1lo

4CC SP: 3f-to+2t, 3z!, 1a*↓
4CC FS: 3f+2t, 2a+2t, 3ze, 3lo, 3f, 3s+1t+2lo, 2a

"IMO Kaetlyn has better jumps" Not really--Kaetlyn has a tendency to turn triples into doubles and occasionally doubles into singles. That tends to hold her TES down, and limits her total score every time out.

Her intended jump layout for the FS is 3f+3t, 2a+3t, 3z, 3lo, 3f, 3s+2t+2lo, 2a but she not yet actually performed that layout. 4CC was a good attempt and was the best one so far this season. If she ever does execute it without flaws (clean lutz), she should be able to score well over 130 points.

Gracie skated a near-clean FS at Skate America and scored 137.41 for this layout: 3z+3t, 3lo, 2a, 2a+3t+2t, 3f+2t, 3z, 2s

 

[peg]

Maybe in the future when Kaetlyn has finished in the top 6 at Worlds 3 years in a row, she too will get very high PCS scores even when she skates off form (and fans of her rivals will grouse about it, no doubt).

The thing is that even when Kaetlyn falls, she gets right back into the performance.

And thanks for acknowledging that Gracie's PCS scores are based on reputation rather than what she puts out on the ice.

 

[julie17]

I am so gutted for Gracie. She is so due for a great performance. I feel very good for Marai ,, she deserved that. Yes peg, Kaetlyn gets up quick after her falls. Really quick.

 

[TwinnerA]

Thank you Li'Kitsu and well said, BTW.

I too hate hearing this excuse above...if Gracie loathes this competition sooo much, ...then stay home! I am sure that Courtney and countless others who's season have now ended, would have been thrilled to compete at such a well known international event!

Frank Carroll said that Gracie really wanted to go, which I believe. She just didn't skate well, that's all. However, I would be surprised if she ever went again.

 

[chuckm]

The thing is that even when Kaetlyn falls, she gets right back into the performance.

And thanks for acknowledging that Gracie's PCS scores are based on reputation rather than what she puts out on the ice.

Gracie's PCS scores are based on her Skating Skills, which are excellent.

 

[Osmond4gold]

the thing is that even when kaetlyn falls, she gets right back into the performance.

And thanks for acknowledging that gracie's pcs scores are based on reputation rather than what she puts out on the ice.

Amen!!!

 

[Li'Kitsu]

...

Well, yeah, and that has nothing to do with what I meant. The comparison between the jumping quality was about their jumps when both ladies hit them - so that Kaetlyn made mistakes this season has little to do with it. It was in regards to the 'can good Kaetlyn compete with good Gracie' discussion. And I stand by that: if Kaetlyn lands her jumps, she has better quality to them than Gracie does.

And I never said Kaetlyn's lutz edge was clean - I said it is cleaner than Gracie's flip edge. On which Gracie regularly wasn't called this season, but which is a lip nevertheless

 

[Tutto]

=andyjo24;1379461]I have to agree that Yulia's jumps, despite being small themselves, are bigger than Satoko's.

As much as I love Satoko's pristine artistry, I find it hard to believe that her jumps are actually jumps. They're more like small hops (literally 2 inches above the ice). The fact that she is receiving +1, +2 GOE for her prerotated "jumps" over big jumpers like So Youn Park, Gracie Gold, and Mirai Nagasu is just absurd.

This just goes to show that jump distance, height, and quality do NOT matter at all. It is all about "appearing" to get the rotation on the jumps and landing them. There is no incentive for skaters to have good jump quality anymore...

According to Russian forum they are 'twizzles'

 

[Jammers]

Well, yeah, and that has nothing to do with what I meant. The comparison between the jumping quality was about their jumps when both ladies hit them - so that Kaetlyn made mistakes this season has little to do with it. It was in regards to the 'can good Kaetlyn compete with good Gracie' discussion. And I stand by that: if Kaetlyn lands her jumps, she has better quality to them than Gracie does.

And I never said Kaetlyn's lutz edge was clean - I said it is cleaner than Gracie's flip edge. On which Gracie regularly wasn't called this season, but which is a lip nevertheless

Kaetlyn like Courtney Hicks may have big jumps but she has no control over landing them just like with Hicks. They both go into them with way to much speed and don't set their jumps up so it's no surprise that even when they land the first jump in their 3-3 combo it's not a clean landing and makes the second jump harder then it should be. Karen Chen also needs to learn to control her speed going into her jumps especially the 3-3. Her skating is a bit frantic and she also needs more control.

 

[NAOTMAA]

According to Russian forum they are 'twizzles'

That's like the most perfect description of her "jumps" I have read

It's rather interesting that people are only now starting to talk about her "jumps" because last year and before the issue was ignored by fans. The few who mentioned it was told they were wrong. So what's the change?

 

[chuckm]

Kaetlyn like Courtney Hicks may have big jumps but she has no control over landing them just like with Hicks. They both go into them with way to much speed and don't set their jumps up so it's no surprise that even when they land the first jump in their 3-3 combo it's not a clean landing and makes the second jump harder then it should be. Karen Chen also needs to learn to control her speed going into her jumps especially the 3-3. Her skating is a bit frantic and she also needs more control.

This is why Kaetlyn so often turns 3f+3t into 3f+2t and 2a+3t into 2a+2t, or why she falls on the 2a in the SP. Gusto is great, but it has to be controlled.

 

[Tutto]

That's like the most perfect description of her "jumps" I have read

It's rather interesting that people are only now starting to talk about her "jumps" because last year and before the issue was ignored by fans. The few who mentioned it was told they were wrong. So what's the change?

Last season I think Satoko didn't get positive GOE on her jumps and got UR calls. Her silver at Worlds was depressing but as she got there mostly becouse of help of her competitors it was okay. The issue was not ignored by fans I remember some discussions last season too. Rather it is being ignored by the judges this season - that what's so shocking

 

[andyjo24]

I don't like both Gracie's and Kaetlyn's jumps. I don't like Gracie's because they're pretty small (believe it or not, they've become much smaller after moving to Frank) and the landings tend to be clunky. As for Kaetlyn, although her jumps have power, they tend to be very tilted in air position, which is not very pleasant to look at. The tilt doesn't help her consistency either at all.

 

[fallingsk8er]

That's like the most perfect description of her "jumps" I have read

It's rather interesting that people are only now starting to talk about her "jumps" because last year and before the issue was ignored by fans. The few who mentioned it was told they were wrong. So what's the change?

The change is that she is now consistently beating this forums favorites.