2016 NHK Trophy Men FS

[Rissa]

I'm afraid of Nathan becoming injured. The way he rushes into his jumps. The hips can only take s much.
I get the feeling Nathan is being pushed to hard by someone. Parents maybe.

You do realize that you're basically accusing Nathan's parents - who have already witnessed several Nathan's surgeries - of having their own son's health for nothing. I seriously doubt forum fans care more about his well-being than his parents.

If anyone's pushing Nathan to doing quads, that person is most likely Nathan himself.

 

[Violet Bliss]

Adding one extra quad to the FS and changing the layout from 5/3 to 4/4 is hardly a fast pace.

It must be easy for you but most people can't do it if their lives depend on it. Even most elite skaters can't do it, at least not easily and without spoiling the program.

 

[KwanIsALegend]

You do realize that you're basically accusing Nathan's parents - who have already witnessed several Nathan's surgeries - of having their own son's health for nothing. I seriously doubt forum fans care more about his well-being than his parents.

If anyone's pushing Nathan to doing quads, that person is most likely Nathan himself.

I am not accusing anyone.

 

[Rissa]

I am not accusing anyone.

Then re-word your post, because the way it is now you totally do.

 

[gmyers]

He didn't lose his 4T, he's done it quite a few times this season with a much higher success rate than last season (moreso than 3A, actually).

You are right. Here was the only competion he did no quad. I thought an UR quad toe happened but it was his second toe of a program. So his record for the season is zero in second quads. No toe, no salchow, no lutz. I wonder which one he will try at Russian nationals. He should only train one for the rest of the season.

 

[vorravorra]

It must be easy for you but most people can't do it if their lives depend on it. Even most elite skaters can't do it, at least not easily and without spoiling the program.

We are not talking about whether it is possible in principle, that depends on the skater, but about whether it is too fast. If one extra quad per season is too fast, what isn't - apart from not progressing at all? They have even decided against a second quad in the SP for now, so they are obviously not trying to rush it.

 

[gmyers]

We are not talking about whether it is possible in principle, that depends on the skater, but about whether it is too fast. If one extra quad per season is too fast, what isn't - apart from not progressing at all? They have even decided against a second quad in the SP for now, so they are obviously not trying to rush it.

But it isn't just one it's two. He's working on adding salchow and lutz in addition to all the other jumps and getting level 4 spins and steps which he's good at.

 

[chuckm]

You do realize that you're basically accusing Nathan's parents - who have already witnessed several Nathan's surgeries - of having their own son's health for nothing. I seriously doubt forum fans care more about his well-being than his parents.

If anyone's pushing Nathan to doing quads, that person is most likely Nathan himself.

ITA. It is NATHAN who is doing the pushing. Certainly not Rafael. And not Marina. Nathan went to Marina because he wants to maximize the difficulty, but at the same time, he doesn't want to lose artistry. I am amazed at how much the FS has improved since the first outing at Finlandia (where Nathan beat Chan, Kovtun and Kolyada), when it was a mess of jumps, falls and little else. Nathan still struggles a bit with the jumps, and there are a few awkward landings here and there, but overall, the FS is so much better than it was even two weeks ago, when he wasn't even going for the 3a.

 

[KwanIsALegend]

Nathans 4 lz was a planned fall. :scard7:

No, I don't really think that. I just remember a few people saying that about Adam.

 

[Mrs. P]

ITA. It is NATHAN who is doing the pushing. Certainly not Rafael. And not Marina. Nathan went to Marina because he wants to maximize the difficulty, but at the same time, he doesn't want to lose artistry. I am amazed at how much the FS has improved since the first outing at Finlandia (where Nathan beat Chan, Kovtun and Kolyada), when it was a mess of jumps, falls and little else. Nathan still struggles a bit with the jumps, and there are a few awkward landings here and there, but overall, the FS is so much better than it was even two weeks ago, when he wasn't even going for the 3a.

There still isn't very much choreography. He spends the first half just doing crossovers to one side of the rink to do all the jumps. I think what makes it less blatant is the fact he manages to do crossovers and the jumps to the beat of the music, so that's arguably an improvement.

 

[Violet Bliss]

We are not talking about whether it is possible in principle, that depends on the skater, but about whether it is too fast. If one extra quad per season is too fast, what isn't - apart from not progressing at all? They have even decided against a second quad in the SP for now, so they are obviously not trying to rush it.

Oh well, might as well add 2 quads per season and have a 8 quad LP in about 3 years' time. Take that, Jin Boyang, Nathan Chen, Yuzuru Hanyu and other slow pokes. Jason Brown, Adam Rippon, quit now.

 

[chuckm]

I feel bad for Kolyada. If he is being pushed by the Russian Fed to add difficulty to his programs right now because they want the medals and titles, that is an enormous amount of stress.

Mikhail is 21 (22 in February). Learning two new quads is not impossible at his age, but let's face it: it is a lot easier at 17 (Nathan Chen's age).

Hanyu is about the same age as Kolyada, but he began working at perfecting the quad loop more than a year ago but didn't try it in competition until this season.

Kolyada is having to try the new jumps in competition when they are nowhere near competition ready. The result isn't helpful for Kolyada OR his federation.

 

[vorravorra]

Kolyada was able to do 4S before he was even injured so it's not really a new quad, but something seems not to have gone quite right with it. As for 4Lz, that one is new - maybe they are trying to figure out if it's a better bet than 4S after all. I doubt they plan to do both any time soon. We'll have to wait for what Mikhail and Chebotareva say after this competition.

 

[silverfoxes]

Is the Fed really "forcing" Mikhail to do these things? I've never heard of them forcing other skaters to attempt layouts more difficult than they could handle. Nobody forces Petrov to try even one quad, and they are both in the national team. What proof do we have of this, that doesn't come from FSO or gmyers?

 

[karne]

Nathans 4 lz was a planned fall. :scard7:

No, I don't really think that. I just remember a few people saying that about Adam.

Since Nathan has actually proven he can stand up on the thing AND rotate it in competition, it's not a planned fall, he just splattered it. Huge difference.

 

[MIM]

I blame Bychenko who could not keep me awake.. it was almost 4am... IN without any voice over didn't help...

Rewarched Bychnko:
He was not that bad! Popped to a 3t3T (yes, the technical mark in the left corner confused me, too) His 4T is not huge, but has good distance-very solid and handy jump, IMO. Pause, so does the music and vocal enters the music and he is doing STSQc, which was better to watch than it was in his SP. 3A turn-out 2T turn-out, but he came back with big solid flowy 3Lz.. There was a weeping choreo-his hands on his face while two foot gliding. Then a huge 3F1Lo 3S combo to the climax of the music. 2A Chsq. He was solid and the program has a nice balance. But less energy was spared for the presentation. I like his grand program (i.e. les miz @ the European championships) and think that he is conditioning and building up momentum to peak at the later competition.

Kolyada
4Lz attempt!!!! and fall, 4T fall, nice 3A, little tight on 3T in a 3Lz3T combo. I like his 3Lz, which is a good foundation for his 4Lz. Cute character playing during the STSQ with speed and clean edge work (lv4,+1.0 GOE). Little mime and small spread eagle after solid Sspin. 1A pop!!! He was not super expressive, but after this point no face what so ever. Being a serious young man and disappointed with the technical mistakes, he showed the disappointment in the program and at the KnC. The supportive Japanese crowd could not lighten up his mood. Hope he does not take it TOO seriously. He has one of the best clean edge work in t the field. His program, with quirkiness, felt like a long choreo sequence entire time, which is VERY difficult to do.

Balde
4Tfall 3A tight but I liked the choreography to the delicate rhythm after. And the STSQ. Was he this good!!?? Heavy and smooth!! Technically rough skating. No jump was done without mistakes. But his spins were decent -not super fast but centered with solid position, capturing the emotion of the music. The timing of the combination spin (camel to sit to scratch position) was superb! I don't know too much about his story for this skating . But I respect this intensity and solemnity that I seldom see in skating performance.

Nam
4S clean! His gliding and skating reminds me his junior years. Light and soft stroking.
a long setup for 3A, 1A(pop) stands out. Slow STSQ. Another long set up to 3A3T(<), good he adds a 3T and did not zayak!!! Nice 2F2T2Lo, He recovered spped a little in the mid STSQ, but still slow. If he intended something like Misha's swanlake effect, he better improve his overall speed. His slow is too slow, and fast is still not fast enough.
A 3F2T after the slow STSQ and setup was so deflating. I really think he has to re-strategize his plan.

Tanaka
Huge 4S, nice save on second 4S (almost hand down)+2T. huge 3A(free leg touch down?) Good edges and character playing, engaging with big home crowds in a STSQ, lengthy 3F3T, nice 3A2t2lo,,, he is unstoppable!!! It was a performance of the night (before Yuzu).

Yuzu
1. He landed 4Lo
2. He landed amazing (3) quads, AGAIN.
3. His program did NOT suffer from 4 quad attempts!!!!

A 4Lo!!!!!!!; A 4S with amazing flow; Biilleman Spin; STSQ, wearing his heart on his sleeve; Multiple 3 turns(?) to a 3F almost felt like a part of the STSQ; A 4S in the 2nd half, fall and zayak @ the highlight of the music (great timing though, his fall and the crowd's AWWWWW added even more spectacle to the performance);A CLEAN 4T; The usual 3A combos back to back; SSpin (honestly I don't like his free leg over his neck position, sorry being nitpicky, but I have to say it!); Finale CHSQ; A 3Lz as a simple extension of the CHSQ, AGAIN.:

Amazing performance. I admire his athletic abilities to land those jumps and his artistic passion to pack emotion and movement into 4+min performance. I thought 3 Quads were the Max. for a good balanced program and he just proved me wrong. The intensity throughout the program captures the essence of Hisaishi's music; it may sound like one tone, but, in fact, it constantly pours sounds and emotion 100% and more at some highlights. Just mesmerizing performance and program throughout.

There is no time wasted. Every movement is designed to do something. The program is so well packed that I would want a little breathing room to release and reflect. But if that is a (small) trade-off for a 4 quads program, I will take it.

Chen
beautiful beginning choreography and set up to a 4Lz (fall);a brief arm choreo to a 4F3T (wild free leg on 4F but,amazing); little arm choreo and steps to 4T(step out); little arm choreo (praying position?) to 4T2T (again, wild free leg but landed cleanly); Simple CHSQ to a soft female vocals and a set up for a 3A (forward landing); a 3Lo to the crescendo of the music ("baBam, baBam, baBam, bAAAAAAAAAAAAm"); recovering with 3F3T2T(clean, capitalizing his quick rotation) and a 3Lz(step-out) to lighter part of the music: A camel Spin with position changes when the "ba Bam, baBam, baBam, bAAAAAAAAAAAAm" comes back; Great effort on a STSQ to the climax of the music. Finish strong with spins. Love the ending spin and pose.

The ballet boy is back!! His FP is organized better this time. Big quads in the first half. Although the transitions from quad to quad are brief, especially after Yuzu skating, he did not totally abandon them. He maintained his stamina in the rather simple CHSQ to set up and land the 3A. His strong elements (tripples, spins, steps) are in the second half to the explosive music. The music is growing on me. After watching the competition, Polovtsian Dances keeps playing in my head over and over.

Congratulation all the medalists and

 

[Sandpiper]

Yuzuru's simply incredible. The perfect example of someone combining technical ability with that elusive x-factor/charisma/performance ability/whatever you want to call it. I think he's also gotten better at fighting for his landings, even the ones that don't take off perfectly (e.g. the quad loop... and I can't believe we can sit here and nitpick about any sort of quad loop at all!)

Impressed by Nathan (though watching it was quite a rollercoaster) and Keiji as well (just goes to show the depth of the Japanese men).

There still isn't very much choreography. He spends the first half just doing crossovers to one side of the rink to do all the jumps. I think what makes it less blatant is the fact he manages to do crossovers and the jumps to the beat of the music, so that's arguably an improvement.

True, but to be honest, I personally don't mind. The quads are exciting in and of themselves, and as you said, he did at least time things to the music. It would be rather unrealistic to expect ~4 quads with complex choreography, and rather boring if everyone had the same strategy. I'm okay with some skaters challenging more jumps and simplifying the transitions, while others do 1-2 quads with more complex transitions, ect. Not everyone can be Yuzuru and do both (and even he did have a fall ).

 

[Mrs. P]

True, but to be honest, I personally don't mind. The quads are exciting in and of themselves, and as you said, he did at least time things to the music. It would be rather unrealistic to expect ~4 quads with complex choreography, and rather boring if everyone had the same strategy. I'm okay with some skaters challenging more jumps and simplifying the transitions, while others do 1-2 quads with more complex transitions, ect. Not everyone can be Yuzuru and do both (and even he did have a fall ).

Yeah, total degustibus here. I did find as I was watching Nathan's skate that while I wasn't wild about the program, I do see how some people would be impressed by just all the quads.

I do think there is a happy medium between crossovers/perfunctory transitions/oodles of quads and intricate choreography/fewer quads. I think Boyang is truly trying to exhibit that happy medium, but obviously it's a strategy that's going to take some time to gel (just like it's taking Jason time for that quad to stick in his programs). I do still appreciate seeing programs and while Boyang has a ton of work to do, I do admire him for his efforts.

I just wrote a post in the men's thread about multiple strategies the U.S. men seem to be adopting.

 

[Interspectator]

http://figureskating-in-color.tumblr.com/post/153705672462/more
Getting a warm hug from Lambiel after doing a good skate -what could be better?
Lambiel, Tanaka and Hanyu and Deniss

 

[da96103]

Nathans 4 lz was a planned fall. :scard7:

No, I don't really think that. I just remember a few people saying that about Adam.

I don't think the 4Lz is a planned fall since he has already landed it 4 times this season (twice at Finlandia, twice at Trophee).

If you said 4S in the Trophee FS is a planned fall (which is not planned here), that would have been more believable.

If anything, Rafael convinced Nathan to drop the 5th quad in FS and to reinstall 3As in SP and FS.