2016 US Nationals Senior Ladies SP

[Ekm]

Why then are the US Ladies dominating everything in women's gymnastics? I imagine gymnastics is still popular in Russia but the US has so much depth that the second team could probably win a team medal at Worlds.

Honestly gymnastics (while still not great) offers a higher level of return on a family's investment than figure skating. Both are very expensive sports and if my child had a lot of potential in both at least there are college scholarships at the end of the gymnastics tunnel (if you reach the elite level or level 10). Likewise, hockey is an expensive sport, but there are a relatively high number of scholarships available for women's hockey compared to girls that play the sport. Tennis is another expensive one, but if you reach the higher levels of the sport you can make a solid (sometimes great) living.

The point is, if you are an American kid with a ton of athletic talent there are a lot of avenues you can pursue, and most of them make more financial sense than figure skating. And this is without discussing issues of home schooling, socialization with peers, and focus on education (I've seen several disturbing comments from Lipnitskaia on this topic).

 

[leafygreens]

Can someone explain me why America believes so much in Gracie Gold? I've never seen a clean short and a clean long program from her; okay she has great skating skills and artistry but this isn't enough anymore. She doesn't deserve second place after the short program.

Also respect for Polina, but i hope this won't be the numbers we will see at worlds: a 65-66 (steps sequence was pretty empty to me) would be more appropriate, but nonetheless great job there, this is definetely her chance to win Nationals.

Gracie had an amazing year when she won Junior championships, and was seen as the next big thing. I'm afraid that next-big-thing opinion has stuck with her even without those same results in seniors. Maybe people have hope she's still going to pull it out but we keep waiting and it doesn't happen.

 

[Ekm]

Did you watch Polina's skate? She looked clean as a whistle to me and I've been critical of her flip in the past.

No, I missed it, that's why I asked. I like Polina (and Hannah) a lot, so I was genuinely curious. I'm glad she was able to pull it off, and I hope the UR problems are gone for good!

 

[fruitbasket]

Gold's flip not marked for at least ! is a complete joke, it's IMO e and you don't need slow-mo to see that. Speaking of jokes, I really don't get why skaters like Nagasu and Pierce can skate good, clean programs that are technically as good or stronger than Gold's, but Gold while missing an entire jump pass potentially worth over 7 points is still ahead of them. If I'm a casual spectator I'm really going to get the impression that the wrong person won. If Polina didn't participate and the SP determined the final placings, Gold winning with a program like that is unfair to everyone.

agree with you.. i do not know giving gracie generous marks at us competition is good or bad. once gracie get into international competitions, judges will mark her points.

 

[Ekm]

Not sure about Mirai but in slow-mo Polina did rotate everything. Especially her opening combination which, while telegraphed was pretty. There was no question about that lutz-toe. Her flip was the best she's done it all season too. And yeah, Hanna only UR'ed and fell on her opening combo. Everything else was rotated which was a great job for her. :thumbsup:

Great for Polina! And I'm glad Hannah is making progress, she seemed so down at the GPs, she's a lovely skater and I hope she can pull everything together.

 

[Li'Kitsu]

@ Gracie's score... she should have been 5th, not 2th. It's not even just the 3Lz she popped into an invalid element... that 3F was at least a !, and while the 2A was clean, it's pretty small and eeked out and quality-wise probably the least impressive one we saw between the top scoring ladies. How does that beat ladies who manage to do at least all their jumping passes okay to good-ish? And yes she has great SS and the choreo is nice, but it's not as if she was having such a leg up on the other ladies in PE or IN (especially in IN, and when she skates like a deer in the headlights). It's not as if she was coming off a great showing at the GPF :noshake:

And while I'm not surprised Gracie is held up over Tyler or Mirai, I'm surprised to see her beat Ashley. It was pretty much the missing call on the flip that did it, but still.

 

[leafygreens]

The scores for 2-4th might as well be tied. Gracie isn't decisively beating anyone. The optics of having her in 2nd might look bad but, there's barely a .10th separating her between that and 4th.

 

[FlattFan]

Mentally unstable is a bit harsh don't you think? :think: I don't think she'll be going on some shooting rampage anytime soon

I think mentally weak fits better. Either way I completely agree with everything else you said

Haha, I don't mean she gonna go Timothy McVeil. I mean when she is physically on the ice, her mental state is unstable. Do you ever feel easy watching her? Imagine her mental state at that point.

 

[Lexiglass]

I agree with you about Gracie and Ashley hurting themselves, and I don't get angry, it is just frustrating because, combined, they could have had several world medals by now.

I have to agree to disagree with you about the placements. Other girls making the same errors would have paid more for them, in one way or another.

To be fair, Gracie, Tyler and Ashley are all essentially tied. Mirai was a touch underscored and should probably be essentially tied with those three as well. I certainly don't feel strongly that Gracie should be #2 and Ashley should be #4 - their scores were so close that those four could have ended up in any order and I would still think it was fair. I do think, however, that the scores are not outlandish. Actually looking at the protocols, I just don't see blatant mistaken scoring - with the caveat, again, that I have no opinion on edge calls because I honestly can't tell (I can sometimes see a blatantly wrong edge on a lutz, but have never been able to differentiate a flip from a lip except in super slow-mo). Gracie benefited from the rules of the SP here - she basically missed her single jump (which she's done twice already this season) and ended up downgrading her combo but adding in a difficult entry and placing it after the halfway mark, so she saved a few points there. The rest of her program was very good, and IMO, better than Mirai and Tyler. Maybe I would give Tyler some bonus PCS for actually skating clean, especially at such a fail-y event, but I don't see anything egregious about Tyler getting 7's and Gracie getting 8's. Ashley missed her combo but otherwise had a strong program - and rightly scored better on almost every component than Gracie. Certainly my gut reaction after seeing Gracie's program was "omg that's a disaster...wait she's in second?!" but when I looked at the breakdown of the scores (and saw how close everyone was), it makes sense IMO.

 

[VIETgrlTerifa]

I thought Mirai's placement was fair honestly.

 

[NAOTMAA]

Haha, I don't mean she gonna go Timothy McVeil. I mean when she is physically on the ice, her mental state is unstable. Do you ever feel easy watching her? Imagine her mental state at that point.

Peggy Flemming once said of Sasha Cohen (I think 06 worlds??) that when watching her skate you were always waiting for that inevitable moment when she would make a mistake and break the spell she was casting. You knew it was coming and you were expecting it no matter how well she was skating up to that point. I feel the same with Gracie except worse cause her mistakes are always bigger and more often the Sasha's. So no I never get an easy feeling when watching her skate. I can't imagine what it's like to be an athlete who has mental toughness issues like that. It's got to be heartbreaking.

 

[narcissa]

Ashley won 4CC back in 2012 just so you know. And if it's Polina, Ashley and Gracie going to Worlds again Polina will finish lower between the 3 skaters like she has the last 2 years because the international judges know she's an inferior skater right now compared to those two.

Yeah you are right, I forgot. Ashley has an impressive resume and it just seems like she should be improving but she's not.

 

[jenaj]

The scores for 2-4th might as well be tied. Gracie isn't decisively beating anyone. The optics of having her in 2nd might look bad but, there's barely a .10th separating her between that and 4th.

I agree and agree also that under IJS, the placements after the short program are not that important. But I also think using ranked placements as was done under 6.0, was a more sensible way of scoring. This was especially true in the short program where failing to do a required element was often fatal. It made sense that a skater who popped a jump or fell should rank behind the skaters who performed their elements without mistakes. I guess the current rule that failing to perform a required element results in no points was supposed to up the ante on the short program a bit. But it doesn't do that if skaters who miss their elements still get high scores--high enough to rank second in Gracie's case.

 

[NAOTMAA]

Yeah you are right, I forgot. Ashley has an impressive resume and it just seems like she should be improving but she's not.

Ashley does indeed have an impressive resume but I'm not sure its the type that says, "give me the benefit of a doubt put me on the team anyway" over and over. She got it in 2014 and I think it was deserved but if it happens again......:think:

Ashley needs to thank her lucky stars that there things are bad and there are no real alternatives in the last years. At some point they will have to move on

 

[Lexiglass]

Can someone explain me why America believes so much in Gracie Gold? I've never seen a clean short and a clean long program from her; okay she has great skating skills and artistry but this isn't enough anymore. She doesn't deserve second place after the short program.

Also respect for Polina, but i hope this won't be the numbers we will see at worlds: a 65-66 (steps sequence was pretty empty to me) would be more appropriate, but nonetheless great job there, this is definetely her chance to win Nationals.

Gracie hasn't been able to get her head together and win the big international medals, but in the last three years she's finished 6th, 5th and 4th at worlds and 4th at the Olympics which is no small feat, and a better record than any other American lady. Those kinds of results (especially considering basically every one of those placements was a bit of a disappointment, except maybe the Olympics) are valuable to the USFSA if they want to keep three spots.

 

[tinlizzie]

I just re-watched Polina's SP and it truly is a gorgeous program from start to finish I think I was so shocked in the moment last night watching the SP's that I didn't appreciate how beautiful her skate was.

 

[Li'Kitsu]

The scores for 2-4th might as well be tied. Gracie isn't decisively beating anyone. The optics of having her in 2nd might look bad but, there's barely a .10th separating her between that and 4th.

True, but I don't think she should be nearly tied with the other ladies in any way either. She should be some points behind them.

 

[NAOTMAA]

Gracie hasn't been able to get her head together and win the big international medals, but in the last three years she's finished 6th, 5th and 4th at worlds and 4th at the Olympics which is no small feat, and a better record than any other American lady. Those kinds of results (especially considering basically every one of those placements was a bit of a disappointment, except maybe the Olympics) are valuable to the USFSA if they want to keep three spots.

I think the USFSA are pushing Gracie extremely hard and the international results show that despite her lackluster performances. I wouldn't be surprised if she's the only one their really pushing. At times I even think she may be getting a bigger push then even Michelle Kwan ever got :shocked: Without that pushing she would probably be finishing a little lower.

 

[tulosai]

I think the USFSA are pushing Gracie extremely hard and the international results show that despite her lackluster performances. I wouldn't be surprised if she's the only one their really pushing. At times I even think she may be getting a bigger push then even Michelle Kwan ever got :shocked: Without that pushing she would probably be finishing a little lower.

For sure they are pushing her. Normally I'd say the question is why, but the truth is it's obviously because even though she's a proven and complete headcase who has never once pulled it together and has only one gold medal at the international senior level even including nothing Senior B's where on paper she had literally no real competition (in full honesty, 2 golds if you count the 2015 TEB short program, which I don't think in this case should be counted since the whole point is she can't put both a SP and LP together which TEB does not disprove) they have no one better to push. I usually try to avoid being excessively negative about the state of US ladies, but the truth is the truth. Headcase Gold is the best the US has to offer right now.

 

[R.D.]

Headcase Gold is the best the US has to offer right now.

Sad, a bit blunt perhaps, but TRUE all the same.

If only Edmunds' competitive mindset could be imparted into her...(or even Wagner) we'd be in a much better spot.