2017-2018 State of Russian Ice Dance

[hanca]

Count me in also as one of those who thinks Katsalapov choked. As much as we saw that they started well, they again struggled with the knee lift. Then he stopped. The look of incredulousness and devastation on Vika's face was heartwrenching. If you've made it through five of the eight elements and only have one minute to go, why not give it a go? Or even try, he didn't even try. The olympics is not for another four years and he IS injury prone. How does she trust this guy going forwards? I don't know.
!!

Well, as much as I dislike Katsalapov, I think your post is being ridiculously biased. He was diagnosed with torn ligament. How do you expect him to finish the program? Even if it is ‘only’ three more elements, it includes lift...

 

[bramweld]

Well, as much as I dislike Katsalapov, I think your post is being ridiculously biased. He was diagnosed with torn ligament. How do you expect him to finish the program? Even if it is ‘only’ three more elements, it includes lift...

But the claim was he tore the ligament during the warm-up, during the stationary lift. If he did, how was he able to get through the first three minutes? And I am not even saying that he wasn't injured, but he could have taken a three minute timeout and then tried to skate, if even for the optics, but he didn't. That's my issue. With much less at stake we've seen Lipnitskaya and even Papadakis try. Too many times Katsalapov has just given up on elements, WC, EC, GP. Maybe this time he was really in a bad way, but the problem is that he's cried wolf too many times. I just don't believe the story they're telling us, not when you consider the body language of everyone in his camp on the night. But I think time will out either way.

 

[Anyasnake]

I think that there is something to be said indeed about the point of transitioning between junior and senior for Russian ID teams - and I do believe it has to do something with packaging and overall showcasing skills they obviously have, but in more 'senior', mature way. A lot of Russian junior teams have great skills, nice carriage and technicalities pretty much got together that seems to get lost in sight with wrong packaging. For example, I have had so far a great difficulty to appreciate Alla/Pavel's skills they have due to this mismatched, cookie-clutter programs of theirs; moreover - they highlighted them being out of synch performance and interpretation-wise in my opinion...

From my perspective, it's mostly about selling those skills, technical abilities in the most accessible/attractive way possible universally-wise. Sometimes I feel that there is some kind of lowplay/underestimation of packaging: choreography, music choice/cuts, costuming, attitude of all that in match to the team etc. regarding junior-to-senior teams - and to be honest, they probably need this kind of care the most in their first senior season to make that positive impact all-around, not only being good, solid technicians, but also exciting team to look at in a very common and plain sense.

I don't think it can be formulated in a better way. With L/D, it's a situation where packaging takes all its importance : He's tall, she's not, there is a visual factor even before the skating aspect and of course this difference cannot be underestimated - it is Ice Dance. Some teams manage to skate like that properly (first example : Coomes/Buckland).

They do have good skating skills : they got Rumba pattern level 4 several times (some top ID teams didn't), fast twizzles, good abilities. How do you sell it properly, then ? I'd like to know first who decides their music choices : them, or their coaches/choreographers ? For me, they skate through the music, not to the music - that's going to lowball you on the "IN" mark of PCS (especially if you have a theatrical FD).
Dancing-wise, Pavel has these great lines and arms and here, yes, there is a difference with Alla. However, if they were well-packaged it wouldn't show or at least, it would show that she is a good dancer (as of now I don't know).

I want to see what they'll have for next year, I hope a good surprise and something that shows off their connection more.

 

[coldblueeyes]

It's actually funny to me how Rumiantseva have problems with packaging if you compare what L/D and P/M have presented. As a whole, the two programs P/M have this year are very much them, a lot of attack and not too complicated, just enough to put them in a good light for the coming seasons, while L/D have been stepping back and back since last season. However, we do have to agree that P/M already had their year of mishaps, which I think it's kind of what's happening to L/D.

 

[hanca]

But the claim was he tore the ligament during the warm-up, during the stationary lift. If he did, how was he able to get through the first three minutes? And I am not even saying that he wasn't injured, but he could have taken a three minute timeout and then tried to skate, if even for the optics, but he didn't. That's my issue. With much less at stake we've seen Lipnitskaya and even Papadakis try. Too many times Katsalapov has just given up on elements, WC, EC, GP. Maybe this time he was really in a bad way, but the problem is that he's cried wolf too many times. I just don't believe the story they're telling us, not when you consider the body language of everyone in his camp on the night. But I think time will out either way.

No, he didn’t claim that he torn it during the warm up. He had some problems already before the competition, but he torn the ligament during the lift, the lift when he let go of her. It can easily happen if a girl, even as light as Sinitsina, puts her whole weight on him, that he can get injured. People can tear a ligament from one wrong step on a pavement, so why is it so hard to believe that his angle didn’t last after adding some 40-50 kilos? It was a bad luck, but as someone who torn my meniscus during skating and had to immediately stop, I can understand how easy it is to injure myself. One wrong step and it’s done. And meniscus is much smaller injury because it is not a ligament, it is only cartilage. He must have been in agony. But sure, how selfish of him not wanting to finish the program during which he would need to carry her!

 

[bramweld]

No, he didn’t claim that he torn it during the warm up. He had some problems already before the competition, but he torn the ligament during the lift, the lift when he let go of her. It can easily happen if a girl, even as light as Sinitsina, puts her whole weight on him, that he can get injured. People can tear a ligament from one wrong step on a pavement, so why is it so hard to believe that his angle didn’t last after adding some 40-50 kilos? It was a bad luck, but as someone who torn my meniscus during skating and had to immediately stop, I can understand how easy it is to injure myself. One wrong step and it’s done. And meniscus is much smaller injury because it is not a ligament, it is only cartilage. He must have been in agony. But sure, how selfish of him not wanting to finish the program during which he would need to carry her!

Well, that puts a new spin on things. If you're injured either you do one of two things;

1. You withdraw or
2. You conserve your energies rather than showing off during the warm up which is what aggravated things in the first place.

Further if that awkward knee lift has been a problem almost all season, why bother with it? It was very poorly executed by both which also again may have aggavated things.

Therefore, as I said before they are not a very smart team and they are poorly managed by Zhulin as well. Just saying it as it is. But I can also agree to disagree with you on this issue.

 

[Ares]

It's actually funny to me how Rumiantseva have problems with packaging if you compare what L/D and P/M have presented. As a whole, the two programs P/M have this year are very much them, a lot of attack and not too complicated, just enough to put them in a good light for the coming seasons, while L/D have been stepping back and back since last season. However, we do have to agree that P/M already had their year of mishaps, which I think it's kind of what's happening to L/D.

Loboda / Drozd somehow look much more juniorish than they did in their last junior season.

 

[Barb]

Loboda / Drozd somehow look much more juniorish than they did in their last junior season.

Agree, but the Parsons, who are junior world champions, are looking bad too. Both teams looked a lot better last season. Definitely programs did not help them.

 

[bramweld]

So much about ice dance is just your aesthetics, your physical form. Rachel has outgrown her brother and he struggles with his twizzles and they both struggle with the lifts so again it might be time to go the way of the Hubbells.

I think we've said all that needs to be said about Alla and Pavel.

 

[Anyasnake]

So much about ice dance is just your aesthetics, your physical form. Rachel has outgrown her brother and he struggles with his twizzles and they both struggle with the lifts so again it might be time to go the way of the Hubbells.

The Parsons don't seem to search themselves for an artistic side/path that they could go for (or just doing research on their own ?) like the Shibutanis do. In ID today, Shibs have shown that it's very possible to be brother/sister and develop an artistic aspect in your skating, I don't see why the Parsons can't do the same. They are World Junior champions, that's something.

 

[coldblueeyes]

Well, for all the rage that happened when the Parsons were better technically in the SD than B/S back in September, they surely only regressed since then. Alla and Pavel had a rough year all around, and even M/C didn't have the best senior debut. It's clear that the first year doesn't affect just the russian teams. Some teams do manage to bounce back, P/M being one of them, but we'll have to see how far they're going in the future.

 

[NoNameFace]

It's actually funny to me how Rumiantseva have problems with packaging if you compare what L/D and P/M have presented. As a whole, the two programs P/M have this year are very much them, a lot of attack and not too complicated, just enough to put them in a good light for the coming seasons, while L/D have been stepping back and back since last season. However, we do have to agree that P/M already had their year of mishaps, which I think it's kind of what's happening to L/D.

this, there is such a difference in packaging between Betina/Sergei and Alla/Pavel - while first are looking pretty much in synch with their material (attitude-wise, presentation and sourcing from their natural abilities, Betina's in particular for FD), second are over-dramatized, over-forced by material and then looking lost in between, whether to speed up or slow down, it's just too darn busy...

and good catch on Betina/Sergei's stuff being not 'too complicated', especially interpretation, presentation, arrangement-wise - their SD may seems simplistic, but it's solid and defends itself by good, engaged execution, FD may seem cliché due to 'Carmen' choice, but then cuts are looking quite interesting, program builds up nicely and foremost - Betina's natural performers abilities really excels there. It just takes a bit of thought to find 2-3 strong focus points in team and build stuff around that, not to throw a team inside of cookie-clutter convention thinking the more, the merrier...

 

[coldblueeyes]

this, there is such a difference in packaging between Betina/Sergei and Alla/Pavel - while first are looking pretty much in synch with their material (attitude-wise, presentation and sourcing from their natural abilities, Betina's in particular for FD), second are over-dramatized, over-forced by material and then looking lost in between, whether to speed up or slow down, it's just too darn busy...

and good catch on Betina/Sergei's stuff being not 'too complicated', especially interpretation, presentation, arrangement-wise - their SD may seems simplistic, but it's solid and defends itself by good, engaged execution, FD may seem cliché due to 'Carmen' choice, but then cuts are looking quite interesting, program builds up nicely and foremost - Betina's natural performers abilities really excels there. It just takes a bit of thought to find 2-3 strong focus points in team and build stuff around that, not to throw a team inside of cookie-clutter convention thinking the more, the merrier...

I think Rumiantseva wanted to package both teams around the same mold - kind of? - but it's not working for Alla and Pavel, even last year their FD was quite, hum, literal in some parts and I didn't like that. They were fantastic with Giselle, though, and they should probably go that route, something a little bit lighter, sweeter. I don't mind sweetness every now and then, especially if you see that a team can't do sexy and brash that well - or not even that, but try to find something more subtle perhaps. Alla is a bit bland, not in a totally bad way, so maybe explore that.

 

[Ares]

The Parsons don't seem to search themselves for an artistic side/path that they could go for (or just doing research on their own ?) like the Shibutanis do. In ID today, Shibs have shown that it's very possible to be brother/sister and develop an artistic aspect in your skating, I don't see why the Parsons can't do the same. They are World Junior champions, that's something.

Yes, but I think that the primary problem of Parsons' is their physical incompatibility that stands out more now than in the past. Rachel overwhelms him. It's a different problem than that of Alla / Pavel.

 

[Giselle]

I think that people have forgotten how hard it is for teams to transition from junior to senior - unless you have a truly exceptional team like V/M, it's super hard and was very rare before 2010 for a team to go senior and straight away start medaling on the GP or hit top 10 at Worlds. You see it with the Parsons and M/C and L/D this year, even though in juniors they were getting very high marks - there is so much more expected of you, particularly in presentation, in seniors.

Timing is also crucial IMO. If you look at a few teams who were Junior Worlds champions in the Olympic year (so moved to seniors during the post-olympic season when there are retirements) you have :
- 2002 : Belbin & Agosto
- 2006 : Virtue & Moir
- 2010 : Ilinykh & Katsalapov

All 3 managed to be contenders and medal at the next olympics!
Of course in 2014 it's Hawayek & Baker who won and it's unlikely that they will be medal contenders in 2018 but there were 4 top US Ice dance teams in 2014 and only 1 (Davis & White) retired so they've been stuck as the 4th US team for a while. But they made an impact in their first senior season winning a GP medal.

Pre-olympic season is probably the worst moment to move to seniors IMO.

 

[hanca]

Well, that puts a new spin on things. If you're injured either you do one of two things;

1. You withdraw or
2. You conserve your energies rather than showing off during the warm up which is what aggravated things in the first place.

Further if that awkward knee lift has been a problem almost all season, why bother with it? It was very poorly executed by both which also again may have aggavated things.

Therefore, as I said before they are not a very smart team and they are poorly managed by Zhulin as well. Just saying it as it is. But I can also agree to disagree with you on this issue.

Well, I don’t blame them that they tried to compete and qualify to the Olympics. Anyone would do the same, including you. Unfortunately they didn’t have a crystal ball so they couldn’t foresee that his ligament would get torn, so eventually they were forced to withdraw, but they couldn’t have known that before the competition. And your point about showing off - they weren’t trying to show off, they were warming up, which includes running through their elements to get the feel of the ice. That’s what the warm up is for. There is no point of conserving energies when they are supposed to warm up. It would be ridiculous to try to compete without a warm up. The warm up is there for a reason!

Jeez, I never thought I will be speaking up for Katsalapov. He is a jerk and I dislike him as a person, but what some posters here are saying is completely ridiculous! I am not sure if those posters realise that elite skaters get often injured. The question is only how serious the injury is and whether they can manage to compete with it. Why would anyone blame Katsalapov that he wanted to try to compete even when he had some health problems, when it was a competition which decides about Olympics? On this occasion it didn’t pay off, during the skate he got injured even more and had to withdraw anyway, but I don’t blame him for trying.

 

[coldblueeyes]

When people don't know whether they criticize Nikita for giving up or not giving up. :confused2:

 

[Barb]

Nikita giving up their partnership with Elena I., he giving up in several competitions after a fall or a big mistake, this one is the most famous https://youtu.be/tX3NfFUNU24?t=153 but it is not the only one, he usually does it. So, he created his own fame, I understand why some people suspect that maybe he did not fight enough.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Nikita giving up their partnership with Elena I., he giving up in several competitions after a fall or a big mistake, this one is the most famous https://youtu.be/tX3NfFUNU24?t=153 but it is not the only one, he usually does it. So, he created his own fame, I understand why some people suspect that maybe he did not fight enough.

Lol...if there was ever a time to boo at a figure skating event that was it!!

 

[hanca]

When people don't know whether they criticize Nikita for giving up or not giving up. :confused2:

Nikita has given up many times. But this year’s Russian nationals I would give him the benefit of doubts. If he is injured, there is nothing he could do.