2017 GP NHK Free Dance

[viennaskater]

So that was very Russian drama program circa 1998
Much better than yesterday but still dumb mistakes

Russian ice dance is stuck in a bygone-days rut.

 

[viennaskater]

You're loosing your nerves.

Losing

 

[NoNameFace]

in some ways, all the competition threads do this... during the thread, there are brief mentions of other contenders, especially those that haven't competed in the same events... for instance here, Shibs and P/C were mentioned because they haven't faced yet V/M.... and when the event has been done, people reflect about strengths and weaknesses of programs and teams... So I guess it's normal...

To get back on track : what made me the most sad is that Laurence and Nikolaj will stay home for these Olympics, with such a brilliant FD. I was also impressed by SinKats's FD... sure Rachmaninoff and old style of skating, but they performed it very well.... I am not sure they are Russian #3.

to Your later point - my sadness over Danes is on a high level, too. Such exqusite, cohesive, polished and sensual skating, programs are not going to Olympics, to the biggest stage where FS is shown for huge auditorium worldwide...Such athletes, doing an amazing, creative and spirited work should be able to resent their work as a result of 4 years of hard work and dedication put into all this stuff: technique, care taken over their shape, stamina, building connection...

about Victoria and Nikita - well, this old 'Russian drama' style paired with Rahmaninoff is totally not my cup of tea and seems to 'swallow' them too much at places, but no doubt they skated it very well today, with some actual spirit of which I'm glad. The most important thing for me is that both programs looked really well taken care of and executed with some focus, energy from both of them. It's pity that Russia has only 2 Ice Dance spots, but Nationals should be interesting nonetheless.

and I agree about Your initial remark, too - I think that at this point it's inevitable to avoid mentioning other top contenders in threads dedicated to the competition the did not participate, but some other top team was there. The main issue seems to be, for a change, setting a 'winning' and best standard of a material/performance through personally favoured programs, programs we identified with on individual level. For me, an excellence has many faces and dimensions, and there is nothing better that having a variety of excellence to respect, see and appreciate out there. What suits one team AND the concept tey are going for, won't fit another one with entire different material on their hands. Yet, we often keep on saying that we wish one team would have more of this or that in their programs, mentioning that another team has it already - but is it a fair thing to differentiate teams, their quality, potential, value of impact/material prepared through one subjective, selective factor we wish them to all have? It's totally good and understandable to have our own preferences towards material presented by teams, but they won't be made automatically into universal standard to measure them.

For me, what makes Gabriella/Guillaume's and Tessa/Scott's materials/programs successful and working well in competition surroundings is an incredible play on each team's respective strenghts, the level of 'personalization' put into concepts and design of them to reflect in the most effective way each team's aesthetic they are feeling comfortable with and their way of movement/expression. The core thing is that both FDs are based/built on entire different dynamics and different way of thinking about the final effect desired to put on ice - hence totally different 'tools' used to fulfill those 'challenges' made in terms of designing the choreography/content to call a vision/idea into flesh by teams. I understand that judges will gravitate towards one of those concepts more, having reflection in scores, at the same time appreciating and rewarding also another team, because of effectiveness and impact of their respective idea and execution of it - there's one team to win the whole thing, after all, but what is the point to see one team's quality fulfillment in programs through factors/influences appreciated, desired based in another team's material, I don't know. There are as many definitions of 'quality' material, 'great' vehicle and all things associated with it, as many teams competing and people watching them.

to be back a bit to Tessa and Scott...addressing opinion/impression of bad music cuts used - my personal impression is that this is an unpopular choice made about meshing those two songs, but looking broader, taking into consideration how dynamic of the choreography was designed and the way they are performing it, using more 'hard' and 'soft' pieces add to the dimension of the whole idea to tell the story to the music of 'Moulin Rouge', but not necessary the ML story in literal sense. The more I watch them performing it, the more it grows in terms of storytelling dimension, given also by those two pieces together: the dramatic and lyrical parts seem to narrate the story from multiple angles, to aim at different sensibilities, expressing their own ones in the process. And after all, the whole concept of 'Moulin Rouge' program is loud, bold, vivid and both songs used quite cover that image: vocals, climax building, drama in tango part. 'Tool' used matches the idea and fits the aesthetic I'd say.

then, the opinion that this is a 'Tessa only show' - I think that this is a program that takes full advantage of Tessa's performing abilities and character portraying and there's nothing wrong about that as the program was (probably) aimed to be very vivid and sound in expression as I opined above. But connecting this point with earlier one about music cuts - while they seem to add dimension into performance image, flow of it, the choreography and way Tessa and Scott express, interpret and execute movement seem to match that kind of dimension, too. I can say that I also pay a lot of attention to Tessa, watching this FD - she's a striking figure and her skill execution and performance-wise is there to play and engage, but the engagement is addressed also towards Scott who 'responds' for it in his own way of design the character, all making the 'dialogue of movement' out there. Tessa may be more noticed due to the way her movement is designed for the dance choreography-wise and how well she executes it, being so much into character telling the story, but I'd never underestimate the leading, 'framing' quality of a partner Scott is - for me, he balances out the loudness of Tessa's expression impact by going along with her in one speed, not necessarily same way of expression/emoting out. One of the smartest things for me in that dance is that the loud note and high impact of the performance are sourced equally from those bright pops of vivid expression and how the dance is led in general. The goal looks like to be giving out the power of both gesture and emotion, which they both are doing pretty well, just not all in the same time, hence Tessa could be the one more noticed.

overall impression of mine is that the effect of 'Moulin Rouge' FD is like the stage play in a form of it, but being 'more' at the same time in terms of substance. The design, music, vividness, movement, sharp gestures, the image of lifts, connection between elements, it all make up of some 'frame' and character, sets the tone, but the way they are performing it gives it a shape and more meaning, maybe not in sense of constantly touching or looking at each other all the time, but to fill the program with their presence in a purposeful way going more than physicality, I know, the loud concept of 'Moulin Rouge' could get ideas of 'body-to-body/face-to-face' expression, but the actual performance seem to be more focused on bringing more connection, emotion between them from being with each other together in that particular moment, in that particular performance to that music, telling that story. Sometimes, the most impactful feeling/impression is generated from smallest things, gestures and non-expected sources - for me, this FD reception is an example of that, to my personal surprise. And they seem to grow it, expand the power of the performance as a whole, to build it from contrast of expression than constant physicality.

but of course, these are mine and only mine impressions, not even stating that this FD is superior than anyone else - for me, it just stands out from different angles than other programs and I find them worth appreciating

 

[4everchan]

^^ i have not watched the movie and never intend to do so... not my thing... i don't have any issues with the two songs juxtaposition.... i think the "i love yous" are very scott and tessa... and yes.. i agree.. Scott is on fire.... his facial expressions, the sharpness of his movements... gosh... there is a world of evolution with the guy from yesterday and mini scott from 8 years ago..

 

[slider11]

The FDs commented by Charlie White on the Olympic channel are available here : https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCOyQtuMFNZ2GR4CyIWMn7iw/videos

Very good for those who wants to understand the scores better.

Interesting, too that Charlie mentions at the end that Cappellini and Lanote's was his favorite FD. You can admire difficult elements and sexy moves but which program makes you want to watch again and again. For me, it was C/L's. It needs work but what potential for being something really special!

 

[viennaskater]

SGabrielle looks cold, frigid.

Are you nuts? The couple are extremely sexy together and have a great rapport.

 

[Anyasnake]

Interesting, too that Charlie mentions at the end that Cappellini and Lanote's was his favorite FD. You can admire difficult elements and sexy moves but which program makes you want to watch again and again. For me, it was C/L's. It needs work but what potential for being something really special!

I know people always say they do the "same" thing, that's not entirely false (Well... Charlie Chaplin isn't la dolce vita, it's more of an interpretation thing), but they do it so well. However, I got emotional at the end when they run and then hug... That came out of nowhere. This might be their best FD ever.
They look like they aren't fully trained, they had time off because of injury. But if with a non-fully trained program I get like this, I'm going to cry my heart out for their grande finale in Milan. I sincerely hope that they'll skate last in the FD at that competition.

 

[4everchan]

Re your first point:actually you have made the complaint that you don't like a piece of music because it is not what you expect .To say that you exclusively object to a piece of much because you don't think it works isn't true. the fact that you have previously objected music edits on these terms is a solipsism.
Re the second: Exactly, Beethoven played around with architecture. The fact you think the architecture can be only understood in your specified, limited terms is a solipsism.
Re:the third: is it on record that Beethoven thought that what he had created was final and should not be played around with. I really don't think it is. Unless you can provide a direct attribution otherwise, all the bolded points are further examples of solipsism.

As for my point about describing Moonlight Sonata as Gothic, I believe you previously listed a number of horror films for which it had been used as a soundtrack...........

I tried in a brief method to share some insight with you, not to preach, not to educate you, simply to communicate how someone like me, and i am not alone, receives different choreographic and musical choices.

I was met with a closed door and to perhaps open it, I would need to go further in music history, music architecture, performance practice, make you read Beethoven's own letters, teach harmony and counterpoint and more over style... this forum is not the place to do so, and I would certainly not volunteer to provide this service for free.

 

[Anyasnake]

and I would certainly not volunteer to provide this service for free.

I'm sorry I just cracked up at this
I don't know why, I might be tired from this weekend of skating during the night... But thank you for the laugh ! I think I need some sleep...
I blame it on the time difference

 

[GGFan]

The FDs commented by Charlie White on the Olympic channel are available here : https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCOyQtuMFNZ2GR4CyIWMn7iw/videos

Very good for those who wants to understand the scores better.

I'm glad Charlie talked about how H/D could improve their interpretation: https://youtu.be/7O_vsGgjuhQ?t=5m49s

I think all of the elements of the program are there and I love the music, but I think the interpretation as sexy/romantic with Madison smiling during parts of it doesn't quite fit. They are missing the tragic/dangerous part of the song (and the singer's badass voice interpreting it). As the singer/songwriter said, the song is "about being with someone who’s the last person on earth you should be with. But there’s something attractive and addictive about being with a dangerous man."

When she sings "If I die I don't care I'm in love" it makes no sense for Madison to smile. Charlie says that he wants it to be more raw and I agree. There's still another dimension they can hit by the Olympics to make it truly transcendent.

 

[icetigger]

I tried in a brief method to share some insight with you, not to preach, not to educate you, simply to communicate how someone like me, and i am not alone, receives different choreographic and musical choices.

I was met with a closed door and to perhaps open it, I would need to go further in music history, music architecture, performance practice, make you read Beethoven's own letters, teach harmony and counterpoint and more over style... this forum is not the place to do so, and I would certainly not volunteer to provide this service for free.

Thanks for that! I understand you fully now; and also why you write on this forum so much!

 

[GGFan]

I think Liz Punsalan made a good and plain point in that Skatin Lesson video on 2015 Worlds. She didn't think the French had the best skate in Shanghai but that the French showed abandon and freedom that people miss about "old skating", before the IJS turned it into somewhat of a collection of big elements.

H/D's FD this season achieves the blurring of technical requirements and freedom of dancing too, earthly and passionate, as compared to the French's ethereal and transcendent.

I have to agree about the freedom and abandon that P/C achieve. But I think all of the Gadbois teams have some issues with their free dances this year (and I'm being nitpicky here--they are all amazing teams that I love):

V/M: the music is beneath them. There is no way they should be dancing to Ewan McGregor and Nicole Kidman. Their voices worked for the movie, but it leaves something to be desired for legends of the sport.

P/C: ethereal abandon isn't the only thing that's going on in that sonata. It's not just a romantic (little r) piece. There is a storminess is the presto, which is one of the things I love the most. There's a feeling of disappointment, and love gone wrong, perhaps the journey into deafness that they miss out on altogether. The music doesn't just speed up. There are layers. I think their interpretation of Build a Home was brilliant, here there is something missing.

H/D: if you're going to use lyrics then you have to listen to them. That program is not just about sexiness, she is potentially in a very dangerous situation. If it was instrumental I wouldn't mind, but the lyrics are quite loud and clear.

Having said all of that, the Olympics will likely be decided on levels and twizzles.

 

[Purv]

P/C: ethereal abandon isn't the only thing that's going on in that sonata. It's not just a romantic (little r) piece. There is a storminess is the presto, which is one of the things I love the most. There's a feeling of disappointment, and love gone wrong, perhaps the journey into deafness that they miss out on altogether. The music doesn't just speed up. There are layers. I think their interpretation of Build a Home was brilliant, here there is something missing.

The main thing is that in the second part of the program ,music is super fast. Very fast piano music, and it is very hard to translate into the ice through movements of the body. Even V/M wouldnt do it just like that I said once that they would have to be freaking Michael Flatley

 

[ancientpeas]

^^ i have not watched the movie and never intend to do so... not my thing... i don't have any issues with the two songs juxtaposition.... i think the "i love yous" are very scott and tessa... and yes.. i agree.. Scott is on fire.... his facial expressions, the sharpness of his movements... gosh... there is a world of evolution with the guy from yesterday and mini scott from 8 years ago..

If you get a chance watch Strictly Ballroom. I think you'll get a kick out of it and the male lead is yummy.

 

[ancientpeas]

I thought V/M looked just a little tight here. They skated with more abandon at Skate Canada. I want to see abandon again at the Olympics. I think when they get comfortable hitting the levels it will come. I think hitting the levels is what they're focused on right now.

As for team gold, I think Russia is by far the favourite. They have the advantage in mens and ladies at this point; pairs is a bit of a toss-up and dance is in Canada's favour.

yeah.. I'd agree about the Russians and the team event. If Patrick doesn't round back into form we are not in a good place.

I hope that by the time they get to the GPF they will push the passion and the drama of the program even further.

 

[rain]

If you get a chance watch Strictly Ballroom. I think you'll get a kick out of it and the male lead is yummy.

I love Strictly Ballroom! So much fun.

The Canadian team really needs Patrick. Even at less than his best, Patrick is still by far the best man Canada has right now.

 

[WeakAnkles]

I'm glad Charlie talked about how H/D could improve their interpretation: https://youtu.be/7O_vsGgjuhQ?t=5m49s

I think all of the elements of the program are there and I love the music, but I think the interpretation as sexy/romantic with Madison smiling during parts of it doesn't quite fit. They are missing the tragic/dangerous part of the song (and the singer's badass voice interpreting it). As the singer/songwriter said, the song is "about being with someone who’s the last person on earth you should be with. But there’s something attractive and addictive about being with a dangerous man."

When she sings "If I die I don't care I'm in love" it makes no sense for Madison to smile. Charlie says that he wants it to be more raw and I agree. There's still another dimension they can hit by the Olympics to make it truly transcendent.

Charlie is spot on. And as you. It's a song about desperation and danger. And I'm not really getting that from them. They have insane chemistry, but they need to learn to modulate it so it fits the specifics of the specific program. They just fall back on sex, like they almost always do.

 

[GGFan]

The main thing is that in the second part of the program ,music is super fast. Very fast piano music, and it is very hard to translate into the ice through movements of the body. Even V/M wouldnt do it just like that I said once that they would have to be freaking Michael Flatley

It's not just that. It's also what I call their double edge sword: smoothness. They always have to round and polish everything off. That works with some music like at Worlds 2016, but not so much with this program. The only dissonance I get in the presto section is fast spins and gestures to accentuate the musical highlights. That's pretty but does not move beyond the surface of the music.

 

[ManyCairns]

But I think all of the Gadbois teams have some issues with their free dances this year (and I'm being nitpicky here--they are all amazing teams that I love):

V/M: the music is beneath them. There is no way they should be dancing to Ewan McGregor and Nicole Kidman. Their voices worked for the movie, but it leaves something to be desired for legends of the sport.


H/D: if you're going to use lyrics then you have to listen to them. That program is not just about sexiness, she is potentially in a very dangerous situation. If it was instrumental I wouldn't mind, but the lyrics are quite loud and clear.

Having said all of that, the Olympics will likely be decided on levels and twizzles.

Yes, yes, yes, to ALL of this, especially the part about liking (and in my case, considering myself a fan of) these teams -- not just one of them!

And also yes, I still do not like this FD for V/M even though they of course show their mastery and skill when they skate it. But it's beneath them for sure. I promise I won't keep saying it, but I still haven't warmed to it, unlike with, say, Carmen that I didn't like parts of at first, then grew to love by the end of the season. I still find Moulin Rouge, I don't know, an unworthy choice of program theme and music for legends like V/M.

H/D FD -- need to find some layers/nuances/light and shade somehow. Maybe P/C too, but I don't find Moonlight Sonata as lacking in nuance -- but maybe I need to re-watch it -- which I'm thrilled to do.

 

[GGFan]

Yes, yes, yes, to ALL of this, especially the part about liking (and in my case, considering myself a fan of) these teams -- not just one of them!

And also yes, I still do not like this FD for V/M even though they of course show their mastery and skill when they skate it. But it's beneath them for sure. I promise I won't keep saying it, but I still haven't warmed to it, unlike with, say, Carmen that I didn't like parts of at first, then grew to love by the end of the season. I still find Moulin Rouge, I don't know, an unworthy choice of program theme and music for legends like V/M.

H/D FD -- need to find some layers/nuances/light and shade somehow. Maybe P/C too, but I don't find Moonlight Sonata as lacking in nuance -- but maybe I need to re-watch it -- which I'm thrilled to do.

I think their skating and movements are very nuanced and world class. With interpretation I think they do sadness/sweetness extremely well but not drama, sexiness, passion, etc. That may just come with more years of experience. I think they've chosen a piece that at least for the second part requires more than sweetness/sadness. Either they need to acknowledge it in their interpretation or they should choreographically and I haven't seen either.