2017 GP NHK Mens FS

[4everchan]

Giving penalties to elements that weren't breaking rules and not penalizing incorrect elements opens a whole new can of worms. That has implications for spins as well. Spin penalties, like zayak penalties, are given to the first spin that breaks the rule. Alaine Chartrand had 2 spins invalidated earlier in the GP series because she failed to follow the basic spin rules. Should she have gotten the two lower scoring spins invalidated or the last two (as those were the ones that broke the rules)? The zayak rule is already one of the most clear cut rules in skating.

clear cut doesn't mean it's necessarily good... but i will simply move along.. i have explained my points.. you have said that skaters are smart... yet, we keep finding examples of skaters "not being so smart" accordingly to your evaluation... i am suggesting a different rule, i like being creative like that and i am sure a lot of skaters would appreciate not having to worry about plan lmnopq if they mess up ONE jump.

 

[NAOTMAA]

sigh, all this talk about zayaking, self sabotage and plan Bs, or lack of, remind me of the Nobunari Oda days

 

[twirlingblades]

sigh, all this talk about zayaking, self sabotage and plan Bs, or lack of, remind me of the Nobunari Oda days

I was thinking of him too. I remember in 2013 skate canada, he violated the zayak rule in like the first minute or something. It was ridiculous. And he did it over and over.

 

[Blades of Passion]

:agree: I can't tell you how many times I had to think on my skates during a competition when a combo ended up as a lone jump and I had to figure out where I was going to do the jump or where I was going to tack it on to another jump to still receive the points I needed.

Missing a jump combo because of a lackluster first jump and needing to do the combo later has nothing to do with what is being talked about. Although, there are too many required combo jumps right now and everyone shouldn't be forced to do so many of those either.

It's not beneficial to skating for skaters to be punished because of phantom rules that make no sense and only exist because of red tape. Nobody deserves special credit for turning a planned jump into a 2Toe or 1Toe. If you believe that's somehow a good thing then I don't think you understand skating very well.

Again, skaters should be focusing on performing and skating. Perhaps you should have worked on that aspect more as a skater, since you are clearly not Michelle Kwan and had room to improve. That is what everyone should be focusing on - creating the best programs possible and doing the best technical content and skating and performances possible. Not patting yourself on the back for remembering to downgrade a jump into a double or single.

Also, on your other post, when I said "that's your opinion" I meant about your "skaters shouldn't be counting like that during their performance". That's an opinion.

It's an opinion nearly every competitor and audience member shares. Most competitors openly talked about this in the early years of CoP, how distracting and unnecessary some of the rules were and how it took away from the performance. The younger "robot" generation of skaters may be used it now, but skating is worse off because of it. They don't perform as well as the top skaters used to. The way they think through programs is very obvious and distracting, and it's part of why skating has failed to evolve and capture a bigger audience.

Like I just said, perhaps you should have been focusing on learning and perfecting the aspects of skating that actually matter, rather than spending your time obsessing about jump layouts in a notebook. You are the victim of a nonsensical rule that wasted your time.

 

[twirlingblades]

clear cut doesn't mean it's necessarily good... but i will simply move along.. i have explained my points.. you have said that skaters are smart... yet, we keep finding examples of skaters "not being so smart" accordingly to your evaluation... i am suggesting a different rule, i like being creative like that and i am sure a lot of skaters would appreciate not having to worry about plan lmnopq if they mess up ONE jump.

I would like to not have to care about the rules either, but here we are. And yeah, Keegan wasn't smart here, lol.

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

Missing a jump combo because of a lackluster first jump and needing to do the combo later has nothing to do with what is being talked about. Although, there are too many required combo jumps right now and everyone shouldn't be forced to do so many of those either.

It's not beneficial to skating for skaters to be punished because of phantom rules that make no sense and only exist because of red tape. Nobody deserves special credit for turning a planned jump into a 2Toe or 1Toe. If you believe that's somehow a good thing then I don't think you understand skating very well. Again, skaters should be focusing on performing and skating. Perhaps you should have worked on that aspect more as a skater, since you are clearly not Michelle Kwan and had room to improve. That is what everyone should be focusing on - creating the best programs possible and doing the best technical content and skating and performances possible. Not patting yourself on the back for remembering to downgrade a jump into a double or single.



It's an opinion nearly every competitor and audience member shares. Most competitors openly talked about this in the early years of CoP, how distracting and unnecessary some of the rules were and how it took away from the performance. The younger "robot" generation of skaters may be used it now, but skating is worse off because of it. They don't perform as well as the top skaters used to. The way they think through programs is very obvious and distracting, and it's part of why skating has failed to evolve and capture a bigger audience.

Like I just said, perhaps you should have been focusing on learning and perfecting the aspects of skating that actually matter, rather than spending your time obsessing about jump layouts in a notebook. You are the victim of a nonsensical rule that wasted your time.

No I was only an elite skater, but hey feel free to try and tell me how it's done again.

I wasn't focusing on the crap that you all like to jibber on about. I was just pointing out that many skaters have to think on their skates literally, and the ones that do that aren't obsessing over rulebook junk, oh well that's all I'm saying nothing more nothing less. YMMV.

 

[4everchan]

I was thinking of him too. I remember in 2013 skate canada, he violated the zayak rule in like the first minute or something. It was ridiculous. And he did it over and over.

well.. he is mostly famous for losing a world championship medal in 2011 over an extra triple toe

 

[NAOTMAA]

I was thinking of him too. I remember in 2013 skate canada, he violated the zayak rule in like the first minute or something. It was ridiculous. And he did it over and over.

He must have been a glutton for punishment because the amount of times he screwed himself over was astonishing

Even more crazy since he had a coach who at the time was considered very COP savvy. He lost out on big medals because of it too

 

[twirlingblades]

Missing a jump combo because of a lackluster first jump and needing to do the combo later has nothing to do with what is being talked about. Although, there are too many required combo jumps right now and everyone shouldn't be forced to do so many of those either.

It's not beneficial to skating for skaters to be punished because of phantom rules that make no sense and only exist because of red tape. Nobody deserves special credit for turning a planned jump into a 2Toe or 1Toe. If you believe that's somehow a good thing then I don't think you understand skating very well. Again, skaters should be focusing on performing and skating. Perhaps you should have worked on that aspect more as a skater, since you are clearly not Michelle Kwan and had room to improve. That is what everyone should be focusing on - creating the best programs possible and doing the best technical content and skating and performances possible. Not patting yourself on the back for remembering to downgrade a jump into a double or single.



It's an opinion nearly every competitor and audience member shares. Most competitors openly talked about this in the early years of CoP, how distracting and unnecessary some of the rules were and how it took away from the performance. The younger "robot" generation of skaters may be used it now, but skating is worse off because of it. They don't perform as well as the top skaters used to. The way they think through programs is very obvious and distracting, and it's part of why skating has failed to evolve and capture a bigger audience.

Like I just said, perhaps you should have been focusing on learning and perfecting the aspects of skating that actually matter, rather than spending your time obsessing about jump layouts in a notebook. You are the victim of a nonsensical rule that wasted your time.

I mean it wasn't really "obsessing". It really doesn't take that long, lol. Sorry, I'll let my coach (who was an olympian pre-CoP) tell me what to do. I don't know why learning the rules and learning how to perform have to be separate from one another. Like...... I guess I didn't spend hours and hours in edge classes, doing theater, going to ballet class, etc.... I just obsessed over jumps. Thanks for informing me.

However, this conversation is part of the bigger "artistry vs technical" argument that has been done to death. I have my own beef with the CoP and a lot of it needs to be revamped, I just don't think we should be giving points back to skater (through scratching a lower value jump than the incorrect jump) for messing up a very simple thing. If anything, the annoying and ever changing spin rules should be changed. I spent wayyyyy more time trying to plan out spins than I did jumps, especially since they changed the level rules every year.

I would also argue that this particular rule doesn't exist for no reason, there was actually a very specific reason that it was implemented in its original form.

 

[twirlingblades]

He must have been a glutton for punishment because the amount of times he screwed himself over was astonishing

Even more crazy since he had a coach who at the time was considered very COP savvy. He lost out on big medals because of it too

Yeah, I just..... don't understand. The self-shame of losing a medal by doing that ONCE would be enough for me to ensure that I never did it again, lol. Oh well.

 

[Blades of Passion]

I was just pointing out that many skaters have to think on their skates literally.

And I was pointing out that skaters shouldn't have to think on their skates about downgrading a jump to a double or single for no good reason. That's not what the sport should be about.

The ability to "think on your skates" is interesting in competitive skating when it results in a skater upgrading their planned content to make up for a previous mistake. In many ways the current rules have HURT this skill of "thinking on your skates", of being gutsy. Instead, the current application of the rule sometimes forces competitors to robotically do something that makes no sense.

Calling yourself a former elite skater and saying I am "jabbering about crap" and that nobody "can tell you how it's done" does not lend any credibility to your argument. Instead, it seems like you are in "agreement" with the CoP rule because it's something you did well, at the detriment of other qualities. My point stands for ANY skater in existence, that they could be a better skater if the rules were better, guiding them towards focusing on more important aspects. I skated too and was doing much of the high level technical content, training for many years and suffering serious injury. I would have loved to have better coaching when I was younger and to know more at a younger age.

I would also argue that this particular rule doesn't exist for no reason, there was actually a very specific reason that it was implemented in its original form.

It feels like you haven't bothered to listen. Again, the zayak rule was created in 1982. The point of the rule is limiting skaters from getting credit for doing too many jumps of the same type. It was never used punish jumps in chronological order when judging skating performance before CoP; performances were always given credit for the most difficult content the skater achieved anywhere in the program, as long as they met the requirements. The rule only acts as it does in CoP because of how the computer program was coded.

well.. Nobunari is mostly famous for losing a world championship medal in 2011 over an extra triple toe

2006 Worlds as well (for an extra 2Toe in combo). Poor Nobunari Oda, lost 2 World medals and 2 Grand Prix titles because that aspect of the zayak rule wasn't fixed in time. He also made the "mistake" at both 2007 Worlds and 2009 Worlds, although he didn't lose a medal because of it those times. LOL, now that I think about it, he actually zayaked in EVERY World Championship where he skated a Long Program. It might be kind of funny to scold him, but really nobody should ever have to deal with such a thing. He also technically lost a National Championship because of it, although he shouldn't have been scored over Takahashi at 2006 Nationals anyway.

 

[Jaana]

I think that every competitor was affected by Hanyu´s withdrawal more or less, because it gave an excellent chance for some skaters to place a bit higher than with Hanyu´s presence. I think what killed Brown was the fact that he was the last to skate and quite surprisingly both Voronov and Bychenko after a good sp, now did really well in the freeskate, too... And also Rippon had a good freeskate!

Did Brown´s team believe that by leaving the attempt of quad out he had more chances for a clean freeskate and could beat those who had skated behore him? In that case it sure turned out to be the wrong tactic, to play it safe.

I think also that it has not been a good tactic to play with the quad attempts in a competition in the way "now I try it and now I don´t try it"? It would have been better if he had tried to jump the quad in every sp and freeskate in previous season, that is the only way one can get the needed mileage. It would have been better to concentrate on the big picture = the Olympics and not mind the little picture = placements in previous season.

 

[Tolstoj]

It's actually very, very important for this rule to get fixed because it can have HUGE impacts for no reason at all. Turning a Quad jump into a Triple is literally the worst mistake Men can make in skating right now, because of how stupidly the rule is coded in the computer.

For example, look at Javier Fernandez's jump layout:

4Toe
4Sal+3Toe
3Axel+2Toe
4Sal
3Axel
3Lutz
3Loop
3Flip+1Loop+3Sal

If Fernandez turns his opening 4Toe into a 3Toe, then he gets 0 credit for his 3Axel later in the program, if he goes through and nails the rest of his planned content. If he had popped that opening 4Toe into a 2Toe instead, then he would be given credit for his 3Axel later in the program. How does that make ANY sense!?!? IT DOESN'T. He's losing over 11 points for a well-executed Triple Axel late in the program, because of doing a 3Toe at the start of his program instead of a 2Toe! It's absolutely ridiculous and stupid! Nobody should EVER be getting penalized like this because they turned a Quad into a Triple, rather than turning it into a Double. Seriously, anyone who tries to argue otherwise is the definition of ignorant and bull-headed.

Again the rule is not stupid, maybe Javi's layout isn't smart enough because it isn't forgiving of these kinds of mistakes.

He has 3 Sal and 3 Toe and 2 3A so of course the moment you pop a quad, you're screwed basically.

For instance that might be one of the reasons why Kolyada is doing a 4S (very unstable for him) as his second quad in the FS instead of repeating a 4T because the moment you're popping that 4T you're losing a lot of points in order to avoid the zayak violation.

 

[Mathman]

For instance that might be one of the reasons why Kolyada is doing a 4S (very unstable for him) as his second quad in the FS instead of repeating a 4T because the moment you're popping that 4T you're losing a lot of points in order to avoid the zayak violation.

Still, we don't want to create a situation where no skater will ever dare to attempt a quad toe for fear that he won't be able to skate his program afterward. I think that Blades of Passion has a point. Let the skaters skate. Then let the computer adjust the score to reflect whatever Zayak problems occurred.

 

[snowflake]

Let's see. First there's Uno who will almost certainly win regardless of how he actually skates. Then there's Fernandez who will get big marks no matter what he does too. He's also up against Bychenko and Samarin who are also bronze medallists from their first event and also looking to qualify. Then there's skaters like Ten and Ge who could pull an amazing performance out of nowhere and screw with the results too.

Oh, and then if the tech panel is a soft one, Zhou is brought into play.

Yeah, tell me all about how that ain't a hard field, especially looking at the one we just had.

All right then, we’ll see. Unexpected things can happen

Max means business this season… have faith :thumbsup:

 

[Tolstoj]

Still, we don't want to create a situation where no skater will ever dare to attempt a quad toe for fear that he won't be able to skate his program afterward. I think that Blades of Passion has a point. Let the skaters skate. Then let the computer adjust the score to reflect whatever Zayak problems occurred.

Wait but Kolyada has a 4T in the 2nd half.

The rule encourages skaters to bring variety on their programs instead of repeating the same jumps over and over.

Javi's program is borderline zayak violation with 3 Salchow (same as Daleman's FS with 2 3T and 2 2T) so in those cases, it's more skaters fault / risk.

He should go for the 4lo ditching one 4s, even though it's a more inconsistent jump.

To me when a skater doesn't have a plan b, it's his fault, not ISU's fault.

 

[twirlingblades]

Wait but Kolyada has a 4T in the 2nd half.

The rule encourages skaters to bring variety on their programs instead of repeating the same jumps over and over.

Javi's program is borderline zayak violation with 3 Salchow (same as Daleman's FS with 2 3T and 2 2T) so in those cases, it's more skaters fault / risk.

He should go for the 4lo ditching one 4s, even though it's a more inconsistent jump.

To me when a skater doesn't have a plan b, it's his fault, not ISU's fault.

I think it also encourages skaters to attempt repeats of jumps they can actually do. Javi can pull off that layout because he is solid in all those jumps. If a man is attempting, say, two 4F when they are not solid, he wouldn't do it if he isn't landing both of them the majority of the time (if a mistake leads to a zayak.) This going back to a planned fall on a quad- type issue. If people start attempting multiple high level jumps they can't do because they know the double toe (or whatever their lowest jump may be) is going to be scratched (not the quad) then that's and issue. Taking out the lowest level jump that was zayak'd is a slippery slope.

If they changed the rule I wouldn't be super upset or anything, I just think that it holds skaters accountable for the elements they are doing.

Like I said, it's unfortunate it happened to Keegan. I also think it's unfortunate that Alaine had 2 spins invalidated earlier this year, and that Leonova got -9 because she had 5 falls because of a terrible skate that was a fluke. Sometimes that stuff just happens.

In Oda's case, it was pure carelessness and disregard for the rules on his part. It wasn't a popped jump situation.

 

[mrrice]

I don't think Patrick has a major injury but I know what it is to wake up one morning not feeling your legs because you had a great workout the day before and you are no longer 20 years old

I hope he wins his 10th National title. That was his goal. I hope he has great Olympics. I never cared about medals when he returned... He never had anything to prove. All I wish for him, is that he gets a chance to say goodbye with a smile. Sochi didn't provide that and with all he has done for the sport, he deserves it.

Life will tell what will happen and I am at peace with any outcome.

Does anyone know what Patrick's current situation is? Is he on the ice, in the gym, or at home? Is he doing physical therapy? Is he happy and looking forward to Nationals? He's been on the GP for years and with his reputation he doesn't really need to be seen by judges before nationals. Most judges already know who he is and what he's capable of.

 

[TontoK]

To me when a skater doesn't have a plan b, it's his fault, not ISU's fault.

Exactly.

Since when should the rules allow a bail-out for skaters who fail to deliver their planned content?

The rule is clear. The skaters in question violated it.

And, there is ALWAYS a workaround to avoid repeated jumps, even if a skater only does a single.

 

[4everchan]

Does anyone know what Patrick's current situation is? Is he on the ice, in the gym, or at home? Is he doing physical therapy? Is he happy and looking forward to Nationals? He's been on the GP for years and with his reputation he doesn't really need to be seen by judges before nationals. Most judges already know who he is and what he's capable of.

come to the fan fest.... there are a few pages for you to catch up on