2017 GP Rostelecom Cup Mens FS

[Mathman]

Judges need to stop using the GOE system to do what the old Artistic Impression marks used to do: Hold up certain skaters and keep down others.

I would like to put in a word of support for the old Artistic Impression score. First, as you say, that's just what the current system does anyway. Each skater gets an artistic impression score repeated three times in the last three program components. I think it would be more honest to admit this without apology. They could have an Artistic Impression score worth 25% of the total (and another 25% for blade work and in-betweens) and call it a day. Trying to distinguish among the three marks -- "gee, that skater had great choreography, but he can't interpret the music worth a darn" -- that just doesn't happen.

In fact, the whole idea of Program Components seems a little fishy to me. There is no place in the IJS for gestalt: "That was the greatest program I ever saw! 6.0, 6.0, 6.0!"

Is it wrong that I secretly want, if the element is so awful, for the GOE to push it into the negative scoring wise? ...

I agree. In terms of risk/reward, quads are all reward and no risk. I remember the famous time that Jeff Buttle threw in a quad fall just because that brought more points than a completed triple. I think what the fans want on the tech side is a "no guts, no glory" competition. If there is little risk, that diminishes the gutsiness of the performance, however competent.

 

[shine]

About the crying fan, first, to me personally, it's rather unsporting of anyone to cry during a great athlete's performance if one's favorite might be surpassed, a great skate is a great skate, regardless.

That said, it's nobody's business either, if this is what she is as a super fan and what she can't help doing. Unfortunately, the camera picks it up because it makes for good ratings.

My only objection would be how this affects both Nathan and Yuzu.

I actually felt the chill when Nathan skated, it felt very uncomfortable to me, and I wondered if Nathan had the werewithal to deliver? It'll take nerves of steel. In the end, it's good psychological training for Nathan.

I think Yuzu must feel really bad about this, knowing what type of person he is. So it isn't great for Yuzu either.

The only solution is to ban such footage, but the media loves drama and ratings, it's their nature, and in an unfortunate way, good for the sport because of the extra attention this garners.

So I don't know if it's a good or bad thing, in the end. :confused2:

What are you referring to here? Are you talking about the loud cheer that someone let out right after Nathan doubled the 2nd 4T attempt? I thought it could've really psyched him up.

 

[qwertyskates]

Allow me to post some of my favourite Kolyada skates. He is a consummate performer through and through, he's not just a technical wiz, textbook jumps but he has great expression and incredible energy. His footwork and transitions....wow...:shocked: :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QarO_so4LPU



As a little boy, always poor costumes and choreography but he puts in his ALL:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L1h-2Z-64q4

This version isn't too shabby either:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFACc3pG3F8

A more expressive legato, so he is versatile and is capable of a range of styles:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MKUh3dkuEgs

 

[qwertyskates]

What are you referring to here? Are you talking about the loud cheer that someone let out right after Nathan doubled the 2nd 4T attempt? I thought it could've really psyched him up.

No, I'm referring to the subdued audience response that greeted Nathan when he started, or at least the huge contrast between the applause for Yuzu and the cheers for Nathan.

 

[shine]

No, I'm referring to the subdued audience response that greeted Nathan when he started, or at least the huge contrast between the applause for Yuzu and the cheers for Nathan.

I actually didn't think it was subdued. It was no where near Yuzuru's considering 70% of the arena was filled by his fans, but it was pretty good from what I can hear from the broadcast. The cheer in the middle though, I thought was quite unsettling.

 

[padme21]

I love Nathan's SP however I wasn't completely sold on his FS but I did recognize the music. I later realized it was from the movie that I own and love "Mao's Last Dancer" about a ballet dancer from China. Given Nathan's history in doing ballet it seems fitting for him. I now have a new appreciation for his FS.

 

[qwertyskates]

I'm intrigued, I'm going to try to see this film, Mao's Last Dancer. Is it available online?

Oh I found it on putlocker.lu. Do a search with the same title. Lots of pop up ads though, be careful

 

[Neenah16]

I actually didn't think it was subdued. It was no where near Yuzuru's considering 70% of the arena was filled by his fans, but it was pretty good from what I can hear from the broadcast. The cheer in the middle though, I thought was quite unsettling.

If you listen closely you will here the same cheer on all of his jumps, it is more likely a Nathan fan than it is a Yuzuru fan who cheered.

 

[Mathman]

If you listen closely you will here the same cheer on all of his jumps, it is more likely a Nathan fan than it is a Yuzuru fan who cheered.

True. And some fans just cheer every jump, whatever the outcome. These are good fans. They are totally into the experience. (I ,myself am like that. I also cry at an exceptionally beautiful skate, and get grumpy when my favorite doesn't win. -- those darn judges! )

 

[cchen24]

I'm intrigued, I'm going to try to see this film, Mao's Last Dancer. Is it available online?

Oh I found it on putlocker.lu. Do a search with the same title. Lots of pop up ads though, be careful

It is on youtube.

 

[qwertyskates]

It is on youtube.

Thank you ofr the heads up, I watched it on putlocker, lots of ads...ack.:disapp:

It made me cry... in the good way.

It makes me appreciate the hardship that these dancers go through for that perfect performance, pushing their bodies to the limit, and makes me LOVE figure skaters even more.


And not at all cheesy like I feared. Glad Nathan found it.

Really psyched that Yuzu, Patrick, Javier, Shoma, etc. are facing a worthy rival, what a great showdown for Men's, so much talent, it won't be like Sochi, I think!

 

[cchen24]

Thank you ofr the heads up, I watched it on putlocker, lots of ads...ack.:disapp:

It made me cry... in the good way. And not at all cheesy like I feared. Glad Nathan found it.

Really psyched that Yuzu, Patrick, Javier, Shoma, etc. are facing a worthy rival, what a great showdown for Men's, so much talent, it won't be like Sochi, I think!

I read on Wikipedia and learned that the movie till this day is still banned in China.

I only watched the last part of the movie so far, and can tell this must be a great movie.

This music selection is very interesting since Nathan's parents are immigrants from Beijing. Nathan has got good ballet training. After learning the story of the movie, I now can understand why the rite of spring was inserted in the middle of the program.

 

[qwertyskates]

I read on Wikipedia and learned that the movie till this day is still banned in China.

I only watched the last part of the movie so far, and can tell this must be a great movie.

This music selection is very interesting since Nathan's parents are immigrants from Beijing. Nathan has got good ballet training. After learning the story of the movie, I now can understand why the rite of spring was inserted in the middle of the program.

Oh you must absolutely watch the movie, you will understand what each segment, eg Rites of Spring, means. I'm getting goosebumps thinking about Nathan feeling it deeply..... Hope I didn't give away a spoiler.....

 

[TontoK]

Oh you must absolutely watch the movie, you will understand what each segment, eg Rites of Spring, means. I'm getting goosebumps thinking about Nathan feeling it deeply..... Hope I didn't give away a spoiler.....

I strongly recommend reading the book. It provides much deeper detail and meaning to what it meant to be selected for Mao's academy. It meant leaving his family essentially forever, at a very young age. Exhausting training. What it meant to be selected to tour internationally, to defect. The support (and hesitation) from the ballet community at his decision.

The movie provides the visual of the dancing, but the book provides infinitely more insight.

 

[shine]

What I would REALLY like to know is how Lori Nichol even came up with this suggestion. It's such an unexpected choice and a pleasant surprise.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

These are your words:


I am one of Patrick's biggest fans, but I've got to be honest, he fell several times (4) in two competitions and still received top PCS. Many disagreed with awarding him high PCS for his falls. I fought back against his critics because of the quality of his overall performance, edges, quality of his footwork, his spins, stepsequences, etc. Kolyada deserves the same consideration - he is a dedicated and hardworking athlete with a great deal of experience, who battled injuries, and after so many years his PCS (high 80s) are still nowhere near the top tier. Yet his other qualities are definitely there, speed, flow, edges, footwork, ice coverage, etc. Unfortunately he isn't invested in or given great programs - he had to repeat that Nightingale Tango over like, what, 4 seasons? He has landed his jumps before, he isn't faking his falls, I just don't think it's fair to trash him just because he is bearing a flag from a different country.

Before Hanyu's fans start gloating, don't forget he fell twice to win Olympic gold.

Misha is adorable and a good mid-tier skater, but his programs, while lovely, are simply not at the level of difficulty, the BV, and in the end, it's still a sport. Athletism has to count too, otherwise it's going to lose its appeal as a real sport.


From wikipaedia:

Chan was assigned to the 2010 Skate Canada International and to the 2010 Cup of Russia for the 2010–11 ISU Grand Prix season. At the Skate Canada, Chan had a collision with Adam Rippon during the morning practice before the short program.[43] He placed fourth in the short program after with 73.20 points, after falling on his quad toe loop jump, his triple axel and his step sequence. He won the free skating earning a new personal best of 166.32 points after landing a quad toe loop jump and five more triple jumps, and was first overall with 239.52 points. It was his first time landing a quad in an ISU competition.[44] Although he fell on a triple axel to make it four falls over the course of the competition, his total score was high enough to earn the gold medal.[45] Chan also struggled with consistency at 2010 Cup of Russia, accumulating another four falls over the competition. He was first in the short program with 81.96 points, where he landed a quad toe loop-triple toe loop combination and fell on a triple axel.[46] In the free skating, he fell on a quad and two triples.[47] Chan scored 145.25 points in the segment and finished in second place overall, 3.1 points behind Tomáš Verner. His combined placements qualified him for the Grand Prix Final.

Looking at SC2010... Here's the protocol:

http://www.isuresults.com/results/gpcan2010/CAT001RS.HTM

Note that Chan's PCS (still generous) was kept under 40 (ie less than 80% of a perfect score).

In the FS he fell once and his PCS was 84 points. Kolyada fell 3 times in his FS and got 89 PCS (ie 89% of a perfect score).

Like I said, even when Chan has fallen 3 times, he's never been scored as generously as Kolyada.

Kolyada does a lot of things right but regardless of who the skater is, 3 falls shouldn't be getting in the 9's. And, to reiterate, that includes Chan.

 

[qwertyskates]

Looking at SC2010... Here's the protocol:

http://www.isuresults.com/results/gpcan2010/CAT001RS.HTM

Note that Chan's PCS (still generous) was kept under 40 (ie less than 80% of a perfect score).

In the FS he fell once and his PCS was 84 points. Kolyada fell 3 times in his FS and got 89 PCS (ie 89% of a perfect score).

Like I said, even when Chan has fallen 3 times, he's never been scored as generously as Kolyada.

Kolyada does a lot of things right but regardless of who the skater is, 3 falls shouldn't be getting in the 9's. And, to reiterate, that includes Chan.

Tut tut...you're not showing the complete picture are you, comparing apples and oranges, or 2010 PCS scores with 2017 PCS scores.

http://www.isuresults.com/results/gpcan2010/gpcan10_Men_SP_Scores.pdf

Let's compare apples to apples, hack, let's compare apples in the same basket sold on the same day.

Wow....with 3 falls, Patrick still scored HIGHER PCS 39.47 for SP, in 4th place, while Oda received PCS 38 for zero falls and 1st place in SP.

Come on now, let's be honest. Patrick fell 3 times and received higher PCS than Oda (0 fall), Reynolds (1 fall) and Rippon (0 fall).

Plus, it is SP, much, much shorter than FP, thus the falls more closely packed together, the impact greater.

You can't have your cake and eat it too.

Again, I think Patrick deserves his PCS, I don't think of these falls as affecting his overall skating quality, he is the master of the ice, and I apply the SAME standards to Kolyada.

Let's be honest here, Kolyada just isn't very liked at all. He has horrible costumes, badly choreographed programs, but that has nothing to do with his own talent. His SS, jump technique, his speed, flow, ice coverage, amazing step sequences and footwork are all impressive, more than Nathan's or Shoma's. I won't put him over Patrick's though, and his PCS isn't anywhere near Patrick's either.

I don't apply double standards, that's all.

 

[Interspectator]

Radical changes are being proposed to the judging, but perhaps a simpler and more effective fix would be to change the suggestion that 10's not be given to a program with errors to a hard-line 'must!' Right now, judges can still decide, according to the rules, to disregard an error in this way.
The same with GOE. It's still left up to the judges discretion according to the rules. Changing just one word will close the loophole. no +3 for a wonky jump (like Yuzu's Lz) no -2 for a fall. This ensures that the judges are forced to give penalties evenly.

 

[TontoK]

Tut tut...you're not showing the complete picture are you, comparing apples and oranges, or 2010 PCS scores with 2017 PCS scores.

http://www.isuresults.com/results/gpcan2010/gpcan10_Men_SP_Scores.pdf

Let's compare apples to apples, hack, let's compare apples in the same basket sold on the same day.

Wow....with 3 falls, Patrick still scored HIGHER PCS 39.47 for SP, in 4th place, while Oda received PCS 38 for zero falls and 1st place in SP.

Come on now, let's be honest. Patrick fell 3 times and received higher PCS than Oda (0 fall), Reynolds (1 fall) and Rippon (0 fall).

Plus, it is SP, much, much shorter than FP, thus more closely packed together, the impact greater.

You can't have your cake and eat it too.

Again, I think Patrick deserves his PCS, I don't think of these falls as affecting his overall skating quality, he is the master of the ice, and I apply the SAME standards to Kolyada.

Let's be honest here, Kolyada just isn't very liked at all. He has horrible costumes, badly choreographed programs, but that has nothing to do with his own talent. His SS, jump technique, his amazing step sequences and footwork are all impressive, more than Yuzu's, Nathan's or Shoma's. I won't put him over Patrick's though, and his PCS isn't anywhere near Patrick's either.

I don't apply double standards, that's all.

I like Kolyada quite a lot, actually. Although programs and costumes are opinions, I happen to share yours. He could use an update on style.

But I like his broad powerful stroking and ease of movement. It's reminiscent of the old Soviet style of men's skating, which I appreciated.

All that said, he didn't deserve the marks he received.

 

[Violet Bliss]

There is a big justifiable difference between Chan's and Kolyada's PCS, falls or no falls. Chan is always very quick to continue his program when he falls so there is hardly any program interruption. Still, when he does have multiple falls, he receives lower PCS than his normal. I don't usually dispute or politicize scores, but nevertheless find Kolyada's PCS at this event higher than he merits, by his usual standard, and especially with 3 falls. But, it's just one event.........

I wish people wouldn't pick out particular out-of-corridor scores to fight over. They are exceptional scores given by one or two judges out of 9 in the panel and they are thrown out anyway. In the same vein, one alleged over scoring at one event does not deserve to be perpetually brought up as a basis of broader accusation, against a skater, or a federation, or ISU, or a whole nation. I mean this generally, not specifically about Kolyada