2017 Jr Worlds Ladies SP

[Lipea]

Was going to watch but didn't wake up in time...

1. Alina Zagitova: I'm just about done with her ridiculous backloading and rushing. I give up on seeing her TES be lower, but PCS should definitely be much lower than that. She has good transitions and skating skills are fine, but everything else is not that good...

What is wrong with backloading if it gives her higher base value? Others are welcome to do it too, but not many do, obviously, because it is hard. I actually thought it worked very effectively this time, and increased excitement towards the end.
Rushing seems to be more like a way they choreographed this program - too many elements for each second of music so to make them, she has to rush.... I am sure it will go way as she gets older.
What is "everything else" - you make it sounds like a lot?

 

[Ares]

Wow, Japanese girls were really on today! Marin - silky smooth with technical content & Yuna as well as Kaori - good job My favourite from them was Yuna today, sassy, fast and she was so happy after the program. Her reactions were cute. Kaori is the most juniorish looking somehow even though she's likely the fastest.

But I am sad for Polina, they were really hard on her 16 points behind the leader, she won't be able to win and any medal would need miracle and bombed skates from the rest. Hope there is no fishy conspiracy there because after looking at protocol at least one carrot call looked bogus, well ... mistakes from caller / assistant also may happen. That TES was shockingly (but now "understandably" low) for her even If I knew that there were errors. It can't be undone so better move on instead of
pondering about it non-stop.


Not a fan of Alina but she holds her nerves well. I would have had closer to Marin in scores, maybe even Marin on 1st place after the Short.

The Russian that I rooted most for - Stasya lost the plot on loop but I am positive that she'll rebound in the free (the same should apply for Tsurskaya).

Also happy for Viveca, she faired better than one could expect and performed more difficult combination than I've never seen from her (3flip - 3toe ... my eyes didn't lie me, right? Seemed fully around too.). Already nice redemption & reward after failing to make LP cut last year in JWCh. I read that she has problems with her health (heart) that limits her training time so it's even more warming. Hopefully she can keep 11th position after the free or move up little.

 

[Totentanz]

Congratulations to Irmak Bayir who made our country proud with the qualification to free skate!
The last time Turkey made it to the free skate/dance segment was in 2014 (Demirsal/Akalin in Ice Dance). And the last time a lady from Turkey managed to qualify for the free skates was 7 years ago in 2010 (Sila Saygi).
I wanna see Bayir's SP performance but unfortunately couldn't find the video anywhere. Any help would really be appreciated here.

 

[Lipea]

I don't like cutesy princess-y packaging as a rule, but I think Marin is one of the very few who can pull it off sincerely, along with Zijun Li. For a junior skater I think her packaging is just fine, although I much preferred per programs last year (Beetlejuice!). I am sure she will try some other styles as she matures.

I'm very sorry that Alexandra Feigen just missed qualifying - she obviously needs better programs/presentation, but I see a lot of raw talent there...sad to think what an uphill battle she has representing a weak fed like Bulgaria. And Diana Nikitina Unfortunately, the Latvian girls don't seem to be handling puberty very well.

Nothing much to add about the Russian girls...just sadness for Polina.

Wait, did Diana skate? I missed her somehow completely.

 

[Ares]

She is too good for this cheesy choreo :sad4:

Do you claim that Polina's GoT choreo is cheesy? AAARRGH! It's great. Sure little bit of Eteriesque touches & miming is here but there's no imaginary hopscotch and tackiness.

 

[xeyra]

Do you claim that Polina's GoT choreo is cheesy? AAARRGH! It's great. Sure little bit of Eteriesque touches & miming is here but there's no imaginary hopscotch and tackiness.

There are some parts of it I personally don't much care for (the mimeing mostly and that weird, back breaking ending pose) but otherwise it is a lovely choreo and I really like it. Especially because I love the musical choice (I was obsessed with this particular GOT track after that episode for two weeks at least).

 

[narcissa]

wow, polina in 11th i would never have guessed in a million years...

 

[begin]

Do you claim that Polina's GoT choreo is cheesy? AAARRGH! It's great. Sure little bit of Eteriesque touches & miming is here but there's no imaginary hopscotch and tackiness.

The miming in the beginning just when on and on tho :disapp:

But I really love the layback placement in her program.

 

[chuckm]

Junior Ladies - Short Program Panel of Judges

All European except RSA. No Asian judge at all.

Four of those will be switched out in the FS for BEL, HUN, SUI and TUR. Still all Euro judges, NO Asian or NA judges.

 

[OS]

You know that I don't care much about points, I care about the ranking and although I would have Marin above Alina I don't think that the result is totally unjustified. Alina is unrefined but she has qualities and if she's able to keep her jumps and also able to defy the intense competition in Russia she could become a very decent skater imo. I know, judging isn't based on potential but her team is hiding her shortcomings quite well with overly busy programs.

But why do you blame the ISU for the fact that the federations don't try to have more judges? I just looked it up - they have examinations every year. Last year's communication: http://static.isu.org/media/344184/2020_sp-and-id_isu-judges-examinations-2016.pdf
Why do the Asian countries don't work together on that if there really is a problem? We know that born Russians are judging for other Eastern European countries f.e.. Chinese Taipeh has one ISU judge for singles and pairs, Chinese has seven - I'm sure China could give Chinese Taipeh one or two judges if someone deemed that to be necessary. You get my point? And yes, probably Russia was smart to fill judging posts of Eastern European countries with Russian judges but they already did that years ago. The other countries could have backlashed already. That's not the fault of the ISU if the non-European countries don't consider this to be a problem and do something about it. Because it would be easy to do something about it.

Regardless if Russia or Europe has 1000 judges, and rest of the world only has 100. At a WORLD championship where there are skaters come from all over the world to compete, they must be given equal opportunity. There should always be a balanced judging panel consist of different qualified judges from different continents. There's a limit on how many spots can a country get to compete, and there should be a limit on how many judges from the same continent should sit on the same judging panel. Especially as it is well known the federation judges are there to compete for their federation's interests and subjective judging are of certainty.

It is an important issue, especially as it has shown to have affected the scoring. PCS is half of the score and it can make big differences in the rankings as with Cha's score in Junior Men. To make it obsolete made the sport all about quantity only, not quality. (why Men's competitions became the way they are)

Alina was great, but her PCS difference to Marin who is at least a JWC is certainly not. The only way it can be explained is apparently the all panel European judges (+ 1 RSA) all thinks the new Russian Junior Champion = Reigning Junior World Champion and better than Evgenia good. Where as i bet if you put 50% N.American judges and 50% Asian judges on the panel with no European, the PCS scoring will be quite different. The judging panel therefore should always aim for the appearance of impartiality by the basic makeup.

Diversity, Meritocracy, Impartiality is the only way the sport is going to thrive and gain credibility.

The thing I find alarming is one just need to look at the judging panel, you can practically predict the outcome. Who's likely to get overmarked, who is going to get underscored. So what is the fun of a competition anymore? Junior World happens in Asia this year like previous 2 Sr. World Championships, and again, we have a repeat of all European panels. That is THREE TIMES!!! Nothing is an accident in this sport, and where a stake is highest, we get fidgety going ons.

As the sport has become a rival of nations especially with the Olympics coming up. The architect of the COP system has exploited all its flaws and quirks to benefit their own country federation, to set up their own champions for the win while setup barriers to entry for others. Strategic, convenient and effective.

All European except RSA. No Asian judge at all.

Four of those will be switched out in the FS for BEL, HUN, SUI and TUR. Still all Euro judges, NO Asian or NA judges.

Heh... surprise surprise, not!
Fairly obvious they are building up Evegenia II.

 

[Zhenya is DIVINE]

Marin has better skating skills than most of the senior ladies out there. What a dream she is! She really takes my breath away!

I hope she defends her title here, but it will be difficult. She will need Alina to make a mistake or two.

I'm also beyond gutted for Polina. I just hope she isn't injured again.

 

[Ares]

Nice clean skate from Eun Soo. I automatically am reminded for younger Radionava again because of their expressiveness and long and skinny limbs.

I also got baby Radionova's flashbacks here. What's interesting is that Elena also skated Latin SP when 14 years old (J. Lopez craziness).

 

[hippomoomin]

Eun soo has better posture. She needs a bright colored dress, and makeup that highlight her pretty face more.

 

[MaiKatze]

It is not about that. Everyone is entitled to do whatever they want. Pink and sparkles can be great as long as they come purely from heart and/or for a deeper reason than just to look pretty; just like black can be stupid if it is done with no reason. What I personally appreciate in anyone whether it is a skater, an artist, etc. is when something is made sincerely for more personal reason than just to be liked by the majority of averagely-minded (by minded I mean not intelectually but in terms of taste/preference) people. I much prefer a rough or weird individuality than a standard polisheness, which is exeplified by Marin: in her skating, in her choice of music, in her looks, in the image of her that seems to be presented in media. To follow the cliche, the path, under which you know the majority will 100% like you, just because this is a standard of a "class" (what a racist stupid word) is boring and much easier than to develop yourself as a human and trying to reach the understanding/realization of who you are and why do you do what you do, and therefore, I appreciate it less. I guess it is normal among juniors as they are still kids, but then I don't understand all that fan hype. For example, I prefer Wakaba much more, whether she cries, or has menstrual blood accident; how she can have amazing skates or not good ones; with her strong Asian full legs and beautiful face (not trying to be a western-type "model"); character and already recognizable skating style.

Something similar but in less degree than to Marin I feel towards Radionova with her never-fading smile and I used to feel towards Gracie. Gracie then changed, but unfortunately, being a mature human made her not only more interesting but also less consistent. Hopefully she regains and we will see an interesting personality. Similar situation with Radionova.

"Pretty" is not "beautiful"; never was never will be, although people apply it all the time with the context of the second.

So in short you feel like Marin and girls like Elena and Gracie fake their smiles and cater to the princess image, because they think or have been told that the simple-minded audience will love them for it? You believe the smile is not coming from a love of skating but just to be admired?

Fair enough, I don't agree, but that's that. Of course Marin growing up in a very idol-friendly atmosphere knows how to play with the camera more than others, but that's a strength she should use. Of course you are free to dislike her and her 'image'. There are many people who are not exposed to the hype in japanese media who think she is one of the biggest talents coming in the next years, for example german commentators mentioned her a few times in senior events, when she wasn't even there. I also don't see why those of us who like her are 'blinded' by her looks. I think Wakaba is just as pretty and I was always a big admirer of Akiko Suzuki who is not a classical beauty. I also think that Alina Zagitova is a real stunner, so should I feel bad that she is in first place right now? Of course looks play a part. We know that. But to reduce Marin to her looks is just unfair, imho. She has presence on the ice, and that is something special. It is a judged sport and it is subjective. Still, if Marin won't deliver, she will not make it. So I don't see where the problem lies.

 

[FlattFan]

She's Marin, heroine of butterscotch and confection sugar. She's not bothered by salty haters. She knows where she sits, and she knows they are in the Dead Sea.

 

[Ares]

Regardless if Russia or Europe has 1000 judges, and rest of the world only has 100. At a WORLD championship where there are skaters come from all over the world to compete, they must be given equal opportunity. There should always be a balanced judging panel consist of different qualified judges from different continents. There's a limit on how many spots can a country get to compete, and there should be a limit on how many judges from the same continent should sit on the same judging panel. Especially as it is well known the federation judges are there to compete for their federation's interests and subjective judging are of certainty.

It is an important issue, especially as it has shown to have affected the scoring. PCS is half of the score and it can make big differences in the rankings as with Cha's score in Junior Men. To make it obsolete made the sport all about quantity only, not quality. (why Men's competitions became the way they are)

Alina was great, but her PCS difference to Marin who is at least a JWC is certainly not. The only way it can be explained is apparently the all panel European judges (+ 1 RSA) all thinks the new Russian Junior Champion = Reigning Junior World Champion and better than Evgenia good. Where as i bet if you put 50% N.American judges and 50% Asian judges on the panel with no European, the PCS scoring will be quite different. The judging panel therefore should always aim for the appearance of impartiality by the basic makeup.

Diversity, Meritocracy, Impartiality is the only way the sport is going to thrive and gain credibility.

The thing I find alarming is one just need to look at the judging panel, you can practically predict the outcome. Who's likely to get overmarked, who is going to get underscored. So what is the fun of a competition anymore? Junior World happens in Asia this year like previous 2 Sr. World Championships, and again, we have a repeat of all European panels. That is THREE TIMES!!! Nothing is an accident in this sport, and where a stake is highest, we get fidgety going ons.

As the sport has become a rival of nations especially with the Olympics coming up. The architect of the COP system has exploited all its flaws and quirks to benefit their own country federation, to set up their own champions for the win while setup barriers to entry for others. Strategic, convenient and effective.



Heh... surprise surprise, not!
Fairly obvious they are building up Evegenia II.

While I agree with your points, esp. those calling for higher standards of judging and more impartiality, less europocentrism ... I don't understand what do you mean by "The architect of the COP", do you blame those who set the rules? Please clarify that

 

[gotoschool]

I think Alina's lead over Marin is right. At first I didn't think I would like Alina's program, but while watching I changed my mind. In terms of jumps, I liked the way Alina combines the quick surprise of extending both arms aesthetically over her head with the rotation in the air and then the dramatic flair of extending her arms out on landing. To me, this is even a form of artistry. I like her tanos better than Evgenia's. The only drawback is the bending of her back on landing. While her movements are a bit frantic, I think they are more graceful than most skaters with a rush of elements. While her skating skills don't seem that impressive at first, I believe her lack of speed at times is due to the wide array of fairly interesting and multi-directional transitions which form a number of aesthetic angles incorporating illusion spins that make maintaining fluid speed difficult and feature her quick reflexes which is a nice form of dexterity, in my opinion. I think she just needs to bring some of the same speed she has in her crossovers into the transitional elements. However, it doesn't always work for me, as in the quick leg lift or the knee sliding across the ice. So, I wish she would extend these out or drop one of them if time doesn't permit them to be extended.

I thought Alina's SP was the most dramatic. I think her camel spin transitioning into the half Biellmann and her Biellmann spin are her strongest elements with good speed and centering and smooth transitions through the beautiful positions that are held well through quite a few revolutions. The speed, centering and position on her sit spin is also nice. I also thought she displayed nice flexibility and skating skills by holding a frontal extension and doing a deliberate half turn. Both Alina and Marin gave very good performances and Marin had a nice Biellmann spin with good centering and speed, but it was not held as long as Alina's and Marin traveled a lot on her catch foot camel spin.

Alina's program gives an impression of being a bit experimental and not completely finished or refined but these very qualities make it the most interesting of the competition to me. Kind of improvisational in feel: an eclectic mix of rapid elements. fairly graceful, unpredictable and not really fitting any stereotype I can think of. I think 70 points is a little high. However, I think her relative position and the amount of her lead compared to Marin is right, though Marin skated quite well. First, though Marin has smoother and more impressive skating skills on first glance, I think Alina should have about the same PCS because of all the complex and interesting transitions she does, which makes speed more difficult to maintain. Plus, I think I actually prefer Alina's step sequence because though it was not that smooth it was more interesting to me in terms of range and change of direction and movement. Plus, I liked her jumps better than Marin's because Alina's jumps had more height, more aesthetically pleasing use of the arms because of the tano and dramatic extension on landing and I thought the way she crossed her skates in the air made her air position more symmetrical. I was pleasantly surprised by Eunsoo and thought she should be be a bit closer. Kaori's performance was impressive for its power, jumps, skating skills and energy and despite her relative lack of refinement it was one of my favorites.

Polina received too many ur calls. Besides the good height and distance, if one were to count rotation from take off to landing, she had more than 2 1/4 air rotations on all of those jumps with the possible exception of the triple loop, which still had at least 2 1/4 rotations but I think more. Her main "problem" was not the rotation but her lack of pre-rotation (less than 180 degrees) and her refusal to bend her legs on landing which if she did would disguise hooks but greatly distract from the beauty of the jumps. It seems that actual air rotation is irrelevant to ur calls again, so it makes no sense to me to have them if there is no real measurement.

 

[da96103]

She's Marin, heroine of butterscotch and confection sugar. She's not bothered by salty haters. She knows where she sits, and she knows they are in the Dead Sea.

You should be a writer. (Unless you already are one)

 

[frida80]

Well FujiTV is starting to block YouTube videos. They've just blocked Starr's video, and she wasn't even in the final four groups! Unreliable. I'm going to download everyone so I don't lose everything again like the 4CC.

 

[glorybox6]

Sidenote: I think this is the first time a Mexican lady has ever qualified for the free skate at Junior Worlds. Congrats, Andrea Montesinos Cantu!

ETA: Went back a little farther in the books -- the last time was either 1989 or 1988 (Erika Beckley placed 30th in 1989 but I can't tell if she skated a free skate). A very long time either way!