2018-19 Russian Ice Dance

gmyers

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 6, 2010
Messages
6,002
They don't owe it to anyone to show up at Worlds. There are a ton of skaters from the Olympics who opted not to go to Worlds.

Plus if B/S had gone to Worlds and got bronze, you'd have complained that it wasn't silver. :sarcasm:

They owe Russian tax payers who funded them generously

No -this is wrong! I would have said a bronze doesn’t fix all the problems. That they still need to learn ijs and what ice dance in 2018 is supposed to be.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
Messages
12,555
They owe Russian tax payers who funded them generously

No -this is wrong! I would have said a bronze doesn’t fix all the problems. That they still need to learn ijs and what ice dance in 2018 is supposed to be.

Exactly. Even if they had gone and competed to satisfy the Russian tax payer or whatever AND medalled, you still would have found fault.

Nobody's blaming Chan for not going to Worlds to maintain 3 spots for Canada. Nobody's blaming the Shibs for not going to Worlds and getting the US 2 medals instead of 1 in ice dance. Nobody's blaming D/R for not going to Worlds to maintain 3 pairs spots. As mentioned before, many skaters opt not to compete at Worlds after the Olympics - which is often their goal and where they peak.

It's the first Worlds at the beginning of a quadrennial. There's plenty of time and opportunity for Russia to rebuild in ice dance prior to the 2022 Olympics.

I highly disagree that Russia hasn't learned IJS either. S/B had two level 3's and Z/G had one level 3 in their FD, and only one level 3 in their SD, which shows they're nearly there as far as getting their technical up to snuff (note that only one team - H/D - had perfect levels across the SD & FD). Artistically, I don't know what you mean "ice dance is supposed to be"... the great thing about ice dance is that there's room for a variety of flavours and programs. If everyone tried to do lyrical contemporary a la the French team, it would end up losing that variety.
 

gmyers

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 6, 2010
Messages
6,002
Exactly. Even if they had gone and competed to satisfy the Russian tax payer or whatever AND medalled, you still would have found fault.

Nobody's blaming Chan for not going to Worlds to maintain 3 spots for Canada. Nobody's blaming the Shibs for not going to Worlds and getting the US 2 medals instead of 1 in ice dance. Nobody's blaming D/R for not going to Worlds to maintain 3 pairs spots. As mentioned before, many skaters opt not to compete at Worlds after the Olympics - which is often their goal and where they peak.

It's the first Worlds at the beginning of a quadrennial. There's plenty of time and opportunity for Russia to rebuild in ice dance prior to the 2022 Olympics.

I highly disagree that Russia hasn't learned IJS either. S/B had two level 3's and Z/G had one level 3 in their FD, and only one level 3 in their SD, which shows they're nearly there as far as getting their technical up to snuff (note that only one team - H/D - had perfect levels across the SD & FD). Artistically, I don't know what you mean "ice dance is supposed to be"... the great thing about ice dance is that there's room for a variety of flavours and programs. If everyone tried to do lyrical contemporary a la the French team, it would end up losing that variety.

Other skaters pay much more their own way and get private support.

Ijs is more than levels. It’s TES and PCS and Russia doesn’t know how to maximize a level and do it in the proper program for the best PCS. Then there is goe! You have seen really poorly done level 4’s get 1 in goe. That’s a catastrophic disaster. To do a level 4 but only get plus 1 goe.

Providing variety can’t be more important than being successful! It’s why virtually every major European team trains in North America doing North American style.
 

charlotte14

Medalist
Joined
Aug 16, 2017
Messages
1,369
Frankly I think it’s the matter of packages and presentation. The Russian ice dance seem to have weaker packages compared to the NA teams.
 

Anyasnake

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 28, 2016
Messages
2,305
Frankly I think it’s the matter of packages and presentation. The Russian ice dance seem to have weaker packages compared to the NA teams.

Agree. However, in the past NA teams were well packaged and were perhaps "inferior" in Skating Skills compared to the Russian teams for example. But now, many Russian coaches moved to the US, and the teaching overall in NA changed : you won't find a Canadian team (high ranked or not) lacking in skating skills, they'll always have good basics. Actually even the single skaters in Canada have those skills which is a must in competition.
Now the NA teams have both.
 

bramweld

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 12, 2012
Messages
4,192
Have to agree with this their packaging is way too traditional, classical and conservative. But do thy have the skills to step out of the box?

After G/P skated, I didn't remember S/B's FD. G/P blew them out of the water! That was my favourite FD of the competition, I've rewatched it ad nauseum I CAN'T WATCH SB straight to the end after that. Z/G's FD material was equally as uninspiring. The last good SD from Russia within this quad was Carmen from I/Z, as for FD's I also liked Frida and Anna Karenina. I'd hoped that IK would have used that Bond theme once in their career. But, oh well it was never to be.
 

gmyers

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 6, 2010
Messages
6,002
Russia’s problems are from:
Lack of skater talent?
Lack of coaching talent?
Lack of knowledge of how ijs works?
Voluntary Commitment to old style and ways?
Involuntary commitment to old style and ways?

Why won’t they deviate from failing guaranteed loser Russian style

So it may be true the skaters don’t have the skills to go outside the box and just aren’t as talented as the rest of the worlds! But like they are the ones competing and losing. So they would like to move to dubreuil and improve but they are kept kind of prisoner of the Russian system!
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
Messages
12,555
Ijs is more than levels. It’s TES and PCS and Russia doesn’t know how to maximize a level and do it in the proper program for the best PCS. Then there is goe! You have seen really poorly done level 4’s get 1 in goe. That’s a catastrophic disaster. To do a level 4 but only get plus 1 goe.

Providing variety can’t be more important than being successful! It’s why virtually every major European team trains in North America doing North American style.

Both S/B and Z/G got plenty of +2 and +3s. In fact, they got more +2/+3's than +1's so your statement is pretty unsubstantiated...
http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1718/wc2018/wc2018_IceDance_SD_Scores.pdf
http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1718/wc2018/wc2018_IceDance_FD_Scores.pdf

Other things to note: S/B also outscored C/B on PCS in the FD and outscored G/P on PCS in the SD.

Providing variety also means staying true to a style that is you, and not conforming to what a "winning style" is. Yes, I get that's what it takes to win (e.g. Bourne and Kraatz only won Worlds when they adopted a more European style, and now the tables have turned), but skaters also need to stay true to who they are, IMO.
 

bramweld

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 12, 2012
Messages
4,192
Both S/B and Z/G got plenty of +2 and +3s. In fact, they got more +2/+3's than +1's so your statement is pretty unsubstantiated...
http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1718/wc2018/wc2018_IceDance_SD_Scores.pdf
http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1718/wc2018/wc2018_IceDance_FD_Scores.pdf

Other things to note: S/B also outscored C/B on PCS in the FD and outscored G/P on PCS in the SD.

Providing variety also means staying true to a style that is you, and not conforming to what a "winning style" is. Yes, I get that's what it takes to win (e.g. Bourne and Kraatz only won Worlds when they adopted a more European style, and now the tables have turned), but skaters also need to stay true to who they are, IMO.

Because let's get practical here, judges will be swayed by a lovely exterior. Stepanova and Bukin are an attractive couple on ice, and htey do have their positives (youthful exuberance and LOTS of confidence), but do they have the technical chops, not totally. I think Russia is at the very least savvy to know the strengths of their skaters and packaging them appropriately by their standards, but, a big but, they've looked a bit dated this entire quad.

Even B/S's attempt with Oblivion was totally wasted on me. When I remember what Punsalon and Swallow did with it many moons ago, their program was just meh, IMHO. Their best vehicle this entire quad was Anna Karenina. Just saying.
 

gmyers

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 6, 2010
Messages
6,002
Both S/B and Z/G got plenty of +2 and +3s. In fact, they got more +2/+3's than +1's so your statement is pretty unsubstantiated...
http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1718/wc2018/wc2018_IceDance_SD_Scores.pdf
http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1718/wc2018/wc2018_IceDance_FD_Scores.pdf

Other things to note: S/B also outscored C/B on PCS in the FD and outscored G/P on PCS in the SD.

Providing variety also means staying true to a style that is you, and not conforming to what a "winning style" is. Yes, I get that's what it takes to win (e.g. Bourne and Kraatz only won Worlds when they adopted a more European style, and now the tables have turned), but skaters also need to stay true to who they are, IMO.

I was talking about a b/s lift. But they aren’t the future!

The issue raised in a previous post was about 4 years being enough time for rebuilding and it’s not for Russian dance as 2014-2018 was a disastrous time of no rebuilding. they needed to change radically their whole view of what ice dance is and didn’t do it! They doubled down on b/s bizarrely making them champions every year they competed for some reason.

You need to combine both. That’s why s/b and z/g finished below c/b and g/p. The success of g/p shows how any North American trained team that does well gets an automatic advantage over any Russian team.
 

Mattieu

Medalist
Joined
Dec 22, 2010
Messages
1,152
Both S/B and Z/G got plenty of +2 and +3s. In fact, they got more +2/+3's than +1's so your statement is pretty unsubstantiated...
http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1718/wc2018/wc2018_IceDance_SD_Scores.pdf
http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1718/wc2018/wc2018_IceDance_FD_Scores.pdf

Other things to note: S/B also outscored C/B on PCS in the FD and outscored G/P on PCS in the SD.

Providing variety also means staying true to a style that is you, and not conforming to what a "winning style" is. Yes, I get that's what it takes to win (e.g. Bourne and Kraatz only won Worlds when they adopted a more European style, and now the tables have turned), but skaters also need to stay true to who they are, IMO.

Another thing to note, was the absence of a Russian judge!
So S/B and Z/G got those placements without any favours from judges, unlike the North Americans who had lots of judges/tech team helping them!
 

uhh

Medalist
Joined
Nov 19, 2013
Messages
1,365
Another thing to note, was the absence of a Russian judge!
So S/B and Z/G got those placements without any favours from judges, unlike the North Americans who had lots of judges/tech team helping them!

??? Irina Medvedeva was on the panel for the FD, in addition across the SD/FD there were judges from Ukraine, Latvia & Georgia, who all tend to prefer Russian teams to the North American style. And if you think US teams get favours from Canadian judges and vice versa, maybe you should look at how Sharon Rogers has scored V/M throughout their career.
 

Lester

Piper and Paul are made of magic dust and unicorns
Final Flight
Joined
Dec 7, 2014
Messages
884
Russia’s problems are from:
Lack of skater talent?
Lack of coaching talent?
Lack of knowledge of how ijs works?
Voluntary Commitment to old style and ways?
Involuntary commitment to old style and ways?

Why won’t they deviate from failing guaranteed loser Russian style

So it may be true the skaters don’t have the skills to go outside the box and just aren’t as talented as the rest of the worlds! But like they are the ones competing and losing. So they would like to move to dubreuil and improve but they are kept kind of prisoner of the Russian system!

If any more top teams go to Dubreiul...................

There are new talents rising up. S/B and Z/G seem to be talented and the judges seem to like them. I think the I/K (and S/Z) split probably derailed Russian dance for a couple of seasons but they seem to be back on track.
 

Mattieu

Medalist
Joined
Dec 22, 2010
Messages
1,152
If any more top teams go to Dubreiul...................

There are new talents rising up. S/B and Z/G seem to be talented and the judges seem to like them. I think the I/K (and S/Z) split probably derailed Russian dance for a couple of seasons but they seem to be back on track.

Yep totally agree
 

Anyasnake

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 28, 2016
Messages
2,305
In short - Russian ice dance will not evolve under Russian coaching.

Unless they get a young one take over a bit ? At least for choreo. Outside of figure skating too.
But the Loboda/Drozd FD was choreographed by Benoit Richaud, right ? He did some nice things with others but that FD was a miss from the start.
While everyone is forgetting about them, I kinda have hopes for them... very good basics but terrible packaging.
 

Anyasnake

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 28, 2016
Messages
2,305
I think the I/K (and S/Z) split probably derailed Russian dance for a couple of seasons but they seem to be back on track.
S/B have had quite a "normal" or even good 1st quad post-junior actually. The only thing is the attention is on them because : no more I/K or I/Z, Monko/Khalyavin ended their career (well, she had to) and S/K are on a rollercoaster mode everytime. That's 3 potential Ice Dance teams that could have been ranked higher than them.

S/B are actually doing great into the mess from all those splits and drama, they were suppose to be drama-free and somehow there's a curse on those teams considering what happenned to them too :noshake:
Now post-2018, they're aiming for those titles, and it won't be easy, but they'll work for it.
 

gmyers

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 6, 2010
Messages
6,002
If any more top teams go to Dubreiul...................

There are new talents rising up. S/B and Z/G seem to be talented and the judges seem to like them. I think the I/K (and S/Z) split probably derailed Russian dance for a couple of seasons but they seem to be back on track.

So you would guess that s/b and or z/g will be making gpf and win world medals next season? That’s back on track!
 

gmyers

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 6, 2010
Messages
6,002
President of the Federation of figure skating Russia (FFKKR) Alexander Gorshkov said that he had no complaints against Russian dancers on the ice, despite the fact that they could not win medals at the Olympics in Pyeongchang and the World Championships in Milan.

"I do not have any complaints about the performance of our athletes in ice dancing, as for the head coach, this applies to the performance of Ekaterina Bobrova and Dmitry Solovyov at the Olympics, where they could really be bronze medalists, but it did not work out." As for the World Cup , except for a small mistake by Alexandra Stepanova and Ivan Bukin in a short dance, I also do not have any questions and comments, "Gorshkov told reporters.

"The question is in a busy place, and it's the judges who determine it, to be honest, I worked 26 years at the ISU Ice Technical Committee on Ice Dancing, it's much harder to find exact criteria in dances than in single and pair skating. I think we need to continue improving the referee system in the dances, so that there was clarity of criteria, close to single and pair skating, "- added the head of the federation.

Bobrov / Solovyov took fourth place at the Games in pyeongchang, where Tiffany Zagorski / Jonathan Gurireo were 14th and at the World Championships in Milan settled down in eighth place, a line lower than Stepanova / Bukin.

https://translate.googleusercontent...700201&usg=ALkJrhgyvCfWTsGoH_K_isr-EHcJDGItWQ

https://mrsport.ria.ru/figure_skating/20180327/1134668292.html
 

bramweld

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 12, 2012
Messages
4,192
^^B/S were fourth in the FD yes, but fifth overall.

Gorshkov isn't doing his coaches any favours. Why then can everyone across the world create much more engaging and stable ice dance teams with the same rules? Why do they make everything look so hard, when other teams across the world are going for a different dynamic.

They need IMHO, to start taking more risks and stop being so conventional. They also need to focus on their skaters perfecting their basics. Their men need to be less lazy and train to build themselves up more, to be much stronger vis a vis Poje, Moir, Donahue, Cizeron, Alex Shibutani, Lanotte (these guys practically transformed their physique rather than hopelessly complaining about their partners weight). The ladies need to focus less on losing weight (albeit there is a need for balance) and looking like ballerina's but rather sculpting the kind of muscles needed to perform the requirements of COP.
 

Mattieu

Medalist
Joined
Dec 22, 2010
Messages
1,152
The ladies need to focus less on losing weight (albeit there is a need for balance) and looking like ballerina's but rather sculpting the kind of muscles needed to perform the requirements of COP.

This is funny that you criticise the Russian ladies, as they are leading the world at the moment!
Trusova coming through with 2 quads and you see they need more muscles?
 

bramweld

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 12, 2012
Messages
4,192
This is funny that you criticise the Russian ladies, as they are leading the world at the moment!
Trusova coming through with 2 quads and you see they need more muscles?

Not criticizing but making an observation. The physique required for a singles skater is very different from that of an ice dancer. But these are just my thoughts. I remember Meryl saying once that it takes so much strength to make something look smooth and easy. When you look at their current crop of senior IDs its so clearly obvious its one of the key things that they lack. If you look at even S/K at their last gala, Katsalapov has to practically place Sinitsina everywhere, its like she doesn't have that agility and coordination to manage her blade to make things look effortless, it still looks hard like she's think about it. Ilinykh had that it spades. OTOH, whatever Stepanova lacks in basics she makes up for it in attack, confidence and her ability to dance. If Tiffany continues to improve as she should she will have much better skills than them all, it's just Jonathan looks sort of puny next to her.
 

madison

Record Breaker
Joined
May 2, 2015
Messages
2,638
Russian ice dance needs a complete coaching team. i mean, right now, they have Zhulin who allegedly has some creative moments, but he's also lazy and not very involved in his students' training, they have Kustarova, who can teach good basics, but lacks creativity and Svinin and Zhuk who are creative, but keep missing the levels.
I don't think that any of these coaching teams work out really hard the skaters. The Russian ice dance needs someone like Eteri in singles, who takes very serious every detail and works really word.
 

gmyers

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 6, 2010
Messages
6,002
It’s a disgraceful interview! The whole idea is that Russia perfected ice dance style and training methods. Isu rules are being used to repress Russians and their perfection.
 

Casual

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 26, 2018
Messages
499
It’s a disgraceful interview! The whole idea is that Russia perfected ice dance style and training methods. Isu rules are being used to repress Russians and their perfection.

It's a typical interview. If you want to get really appalled, read some native Russian press. According to them, any poor performance by Russian athletes is a (CIA-led) conspiracy, LOL. :biggrin:

The only Russian dancing pair I liked from the current crop are Tiffany and Jonathan. They have a very nice style, and better taste in music.
 

Mattieu

Medalist
Joined
Dec 22, 2010
Messages
1,152
It's a typical interview. If you want to get really appalled, read some native Russian press. According to them, any poor performance by Russian athletes is a (CIA-led) conspiracy, LOL. :biggrin:

The only Russian dancing pair I liked from the current crop are Tiffany and Jonathan. They have a very nice style, and better taste in music.

I must admit, that despite Tiffany and Jonathan not being a typical Russian team, I really like them.
Maybe that is the reason, they are not typically Russian?
Or is it just a soft spot for Tiffany when she used to skate for France?
 

Casual

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 26, 2018
Messages
499
I must admit, that despite Tiffany and Jonathan not being a typical Russian team, I really like them.
Maybe that is the reason, they are not typically Russian?
Or is it just a soft spot for Tiffany when she used to skate for France?

I first saw them at European championship, and instantly liked them.

Apart from their style, (which I prefer to a more typical Russian fare), I felt that they were really into it. Like they were not just artificially trying to create a moment, but like they were truly in their bubble, completely absorbed and very happy in their dancing. They looked authentic and effortless. Very good chemistry.
 

bramweld

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 12, 2012
Messages
4,192
Russian ice dance needs a complete coaching team. i mean, right now, they have Zhulin who allegedly has some creative moments, but he's also lazy and not very involved in his students' training, they have Kustarova, who can teach good basics, but lacks creativity and Svinin and Zhuk who are creative, but keep missing the levels.
I don't think that any of these coaching teams work out really hard the skaters. The Russian ice dance needs someone like Eteri in singles, who takes very serious every detail and works really word.

Agreed. 100 %. The Russian coaching teams are simply not paying enough attention to every small but important detail.
Quite frankly some of their ice dancers just really don't have the talent or the intelligence required to even form a formidable team.
 

Casual

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 26, 2018
Messages
499
OTOH, whatever Stepanova lacks in basics she makes up for it in attack, confidence and her ability to dance. If Tiffany continues to improve as she should she will have much better skills than them all, it's just Jonathan looks sort of puny next to her.

I like Stepanova, but by herself. She can dance. She seemed more talented than her partner.
 

bramweld

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 12, 2012
Messages
4,192
I like Stepanova, but by herself. She can dance. She seemed more talented than her partner.

This is true she is the better dancer than Bukin he has the better skating basics, but I didn't find him particularly interesting in their FD this season, he was better in their tango last season. This program was Stepanova's and he was just along for the ride. Hopefully they will chose more wisely next season.
 
Top