2018-19 U.S. Men’s figure skating

[ice coverage]

Per his agent, Vincent had a dislocated shoulder last week.

(Sorry, I don't know whether it already was mentioned in the competition thread.)

---

I once again am surprised that some people apparently are "forgetting" that training and competition are two different things -- that it is not unusual for a skater to train cleaner programs or cleaner elements that unfortunately elude them during competition. Same for programs with better components.

(Of course, what should be scored is what the tech panel and judges see in competition. I have no problem with that.)

Surprised also that some people apparently are "forgetting" that Vincent has three coaches on his team. Does not make much sense to me to attribute Vincent's positives or negatives to only one of his three coaches.

 

[oatmella]

I guess Tom Z is getting the blame as he’s the jump specialist.

And Tom Z is the one who posted publicly about unfair UR call at SA.

Really hope Vincent can fix his UR issues - maybe his current coaching team isn’t the best one to address his needs ...

 

[ice coverage]

I guess Tom Z is getting the blame as he’s the jump specialist. .....

Christy Krall also is a jump specialist.

Anyway, good luck to Vincent and Alex Johnson in the free skate.

 

[Mrs. P]

I think I am confused. Didn't he have rock solid technique on the 3A in the past? If so, why is he relearning it?

Well it doesn't make sense to apply new technique on just quads. It sounds like they're using the new technique on all his jumps and I think it's a good move. His previous technique basically had cause him to delay when he started rotating. That meant if he was even slightly off on timing, he'd almost end up UR-ing.

And seeing his 3As in Skate Canada, I think once the new technique takes hold, he's going to do better on the jumps in the long run.

 

[oly2018]

Per his agent, Vincent had a dislocated shoulder last week.

(Sorry, I don't know whether it already was mentioned in the competition thread.)

---

I once again am surprised that some people apparently are "forgetting" that training and competition are two different things -- that it is not unusual for a skater to train cleaner programs or cleaner elements that unfortunately elude them during competition. Same for programs with better components.

(Of course, what should be scored is what the tech panel and judges see in competition. I have no problem with that.)

Surprised also that some people apparently are "forgetting" that Vincent has three coaches on his team. Does not make much sense to me to attribute Vincent's positives or negatives to only one of his three coaches.

That tweet is...something. If Vincent had performed well, would they have released this information? If he is hurt, he shouldn't be competing. The same thing happened last year at Worlds. They announced an injury after a poor performance. At this point, I feel bad for Vincent. I feel like his entire team is missing the mark at this point. It's not just on Tom Z, but I am sure that FB post didn't help.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

That tweet is...something. If Vincent had performed well, would they have released this information? If he is hurt, he shouldn't be competing. The same thing happened last year at Worlds. They announced an injury after a poor performance. At this point, I feel bad for Vincent. I feel like his entire team is missing the mark at this point. It's not just on Tom Z, but I am sure that FB post didn't help.

I thought he performed well. The issue is that his chronic problem of URing is one that is severely punished in this judging system. I didn't think his 4Lz looked any worse than attempts he's made at full health. You're right that his team is going about this all wrong, blaming judges and injuries when these problems have existed all along. I think Vincent had something like 7 < calls at Skate America, and it's fine if Tom wants to argue about the one bad 4F call, but the other 6 were legitimately <. Does all this make Vincent think his technique is fine and it's just bad judging that is sinking him? Hopefully not.

I'd love to see them do what Carolina did, which was to scale back to only jumps she could well then slowly remaster and reintroduce the 3F, then the 3Lz, followed by the 3F-3T. Just doing one type of quad well, along with the 3A, would put him in much better shape than he's in now.

 

[Mrs. P]

I thought he performed well. The issue is that his chronic problem of URing is one that is severely punished in this judging system. I didn't think his 4Lz looked any worse than attempts he's made at full health. You're right that his team is going about this all wrong, blaming judges and injuries when these problems have existed all along. I think Vincent had something like 7 < calls at Skate America, and it's fine if Tom wants to argue about the one bad 4F call, but the other 6 were legitimately <. Does all this make Vincent think his technique is fine and it's just bad judging that is sinking him? Hopefully not.

I'd love to see them do what Carolina did, which was to scale back to only jumps she could well then slowly remaster and reintroduce the 3F, then the 3Lz, followed by the 3F-3T. Just doing one type of quad well, along with the 3A, would put him in much better shape than he's in now.

It's a matter whether Vincent is patient enough to rebuild his jumps. It seems, in the past, Vincent was eager to have it it all. That's why he was learning the 3F and 3Z so quickly and wanting to do the 5-6 quad programs. I think it's telling that he's constantly injured. He's had at least one injury in the last three seasons, including now this one, as we've found out.

If he's willing to do that -- it's a good time to do it. The U.S. field isn't as deep and there isn't anyone other than Nathan that is really at all cylinders yet.

 

[ice coverage]

That tweet is...something. If Vincent had performed well, would they have released this information? … ... They announced an injury after a poor performance. …

For the record:

Before NHK, Vincent already had mentioned his shoulder issue -- when interviewed on Ice Talk (episode published on the morning of Nov 8):

https://goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?56449-Vincent-Zhou&p=2243388&viewfull=1#post2243388​

Sylvia transcribed the following quote from Ice Talk:

… Vincent mentioned that he recently "spent a couple of days back in California seeing my doctor for a little shoulder issue, but the couple of days interruption to my training has not in any way diminished my spirit or my plans to do well and improve upon Skate America at NHK." ...

https://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/th...icles-latest-news.102845/page-49#post-5453777​

(I was unaware of the Ice Talk mention when I posted today's tweet from Baden, but that was my ignorance.)

 

[karne]

I thought he performed well. The issue is that his chronic problem of URing is one that is severely punished in this judging system. I didn't think his 4Lz looked any worse than attempts he's made at full health. You're right that his team is going about this all wrong, blaming judges and injuries when these problems have existed all along. I think Vincent had something like 7 < calls at Skate America, and it's fine if Tom wants to argue about the one bad 4F call, but the other 6 were legitimately <. Does all this make Vincent think his technique is fine and it's just bad judging that is sinking him? Hopefully not.

The 4Lz call was completely justifiable. The lack of call on the 3T was absolutely not and I hope Vincent/Tom/Christy/Tammy are all smart enough to realise that he got a HUGE gift when they didn't call that UR (and they probably could have even called it <<!).

I wonder if Vincent can feel the URs. He didn't look very shocked last night but he did at Skate America. I'd hate to see him like Mirai and her shocked face every time the score comes up lower than (she) expects because of the lack of feeling with the URs. Some of Vincent's are bad enough that I would question the nerves in his foot if he can't feel them!

I'd love to see them do what Carolina did, which was to scale back to only jumps she could well then slowly remaster and reintroduce the 3F, then the 3Lz, followed by the 3F-3T. Just doing one type of quad well, along with the 3A, would put him in much better shape than he's in now.

This is actually the way I think they should go, though I don't claim to be a coaching expert. I really think they should rip out all the quads and start again. Maybe getting him just doing the toe or Salchow, and work on getting the triples (and the triple Axel!) big, rotated and consistent. Start building up a rep for consistent, clean programs, piling up the clean protocol sheets. Get in the judges' and tech panel's good books and then start adding back the Lutz and flip - only if he can rotate them.

This is the perfect time for a big rebuild. We're at the beginning of the quad, it's four years til the next Olympics, the US men's field has lost much of its depth so it would be unlikely to effect his domestic standing too much, and he's only just turned 18. If they can get it right now...

 

[century2009]

I agree if you are injured, you should not skate. It will make it worse and you should heal and get better first.

But Vincent didnt withdraw and skated, and that is actually not the issue with him. But feels like an excuse upon excuse now. For Worlds he did great in the short, but when everything fell apart in the free, he said he was injured only after. And they could have lowered the tech content there and do well if he was so injured.

The real issue is his underrotation and dont really feel like he is coach well to be honest. I think he has potential but if you cant do the jump well then dont do it. Michal did well with only 1 quad and it was not even a hard quad comparatively.

They should rework the strategy so he can maximize what he can do and cant.

I agree about the 3toe. I was surprised that was not called. But you cant play guesting game with the judges, and right now, instead of arguing with them, he should work on better strategy.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

The 4Lz call was completely justifiable. The lack of call on the 3T was absolutely not and I hope Vincent/Tom/Christy/Tammy are all smart enough to realise that he got a HUGE gift when they didn't call that UR (and they probably could have even called it <<!).

Oh, I agree. I meant that the issue with the 4Lz didn't seem to be attributable to an injury, because it's a mistake he usually makes healthy or not.

 

[karne]

Ah bollocks, I just realised we've been rulebreaking. Sorry mods.

 

[Mrs. P]

^ You’re fine, karne! The policy was changed and these posts are fine!

 

[karne]

^ You’re fine, karne! The policy was changed and these posts are fine!

Oh, goody. That'll serve me right for not reading that PM properly

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Vincent has had only 1 of his 8 (not counting pops to doubles) quad attempts on the GP called fully rotated. Hopefully this gets sorted out soon.

 

[princessalica]

Vincent has had only 1 of his 8 (not counting pops to doubles) quad attempts on the GP called fully rotated. Hopefully this gets sorted out soon.

And even with all of those under rotations called he was just off the podium. If they can even fix a few there is so much he can achieve!

 

[Tavi...]

And even with all of those under rotations called he was just off the podium. If they can even fix a few there is so much he can achieve!

Not to be mean, but he scored lower here than he did at Skate America. He was only just off the podium because this was a terrible competition. For comparison, he would have placed 6th in Helsinki and 9th in Canada.

 

[karne]

Not to be mean, but he scored lower here than he did at Skate America. He was only just off the podium because this was a terrible competition. For comparison, he would have placed 6th in Helsinki and 9th in Canada.

I'm inclined to agree with Tavi on this one. The performances of the rest of the field were really flattering to Vincent.

For reference, Brendan's score from SkCan would have been fifth here. And Jason from SkCan would have won bronze!

 

[Tavi...]

I'm inclined to agree with Tavi on this one. The performances of the rest of the field were really flattering to Vincent.

For reference, Brendan's score from SkCan would have been fifth here. And Jason from SkCan would have won bronze!

I should say, though, that I really like Vincent’s FS and he has clearly done a ton of work on presentation. I actually enjoyed his performance here a lot and I hope he can eventually master the <.

 

[karne]

I should say, though, that I really like his FS and he has clearly done a ton of work on presentation. I actually enjoyed his performance here a lot and I hope he can eventually master the <.

I love his free skate, I think it's really good and has loads of potential. But I can't close my eyes when he jumps, so.