2018 Europeans Ladies FS

[largeman]

You know, since i've started following FS not so long ago, sometimes i watch some "old-school" programs and i can't say that many of impressed me... for example i've watched few Yuna Kim programs, which people claim to be iconic or something like that, but i didn't feel anything, i mean, she's elegant, pretty good at jumps, but i haven't seen any emotions/connection to the music. So far the only programs which have really impressed me were the ones by Yagudin at 2002 Olympics.
Btw is there any thread for old-school iconic programs?

If you really want to go old school:

2008 thread: https://www.goldenskate.com/forum/s...or-Round-up-of-the-Best-Programs-of-All-Times

2006 thread: https://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?14878-All-time-favorite-programs
(Wow, there used to be a forum member named "Vodka Shot")

2003 thread: https://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?2053-All-Time-Favorite-Programs

I'll admit, I haven't seen or don't remember seeing 80% of the programs that were listed

 

[rhubarb]

Congratulations to Alina! She definitely deserved that win. I do believe she is one of the best spinners in Ladies right now.

And I'm glad Carolina hung on to that bronze. AMAZING SP, not so amazing FS...:eekn:

 

[begin]

Really? It's obvious that negative comments on Koola's videos get immediately deleted by the channel, whereas all the supporting ones get a thumbs up. This user has waaaay too much free time.

Those were arguments under other videos/channels. This person has been nasty for a VERY long time.

But why? I really don't understand, i could may be agree about previous one, but current one looks gorgeous. I don't see any relation between her tutu and junior-ness...
Also, are you talking about SP or FS dress(i'm not sure)?

Both but mostly her FS. Alina tends to bend over a lot and the tutu flipping up and down as she skates just highlights this.

And in general her skirt just makes everything campier. Both her programs are very literal (as is the case with more junior/less sophisticated programs) w the really obvious cues to ballet and the costume just takes it to the extreme.

 

[ancientpeas]

That's right, the problem is not that Zhenya flutzes. Every skater has flaws. People are not saying that because she flutzes, she can never be considered a great skater or even one of the best ever. People are just complaining about the fact that the tech panel does not call an e an e and that judges are rewarding it with positive GOE.

Bringing Michelle Kwan into this is just

Well..she is training her doubles again. Maybe she's planning a comeback?

 

[koatcue]

Those were arguments under other videos/channels. This person has been nasty for a VERY long time.



Both but mostly her FS. Alina tends to bend over a lot and the tutu flipping up and down as she skates just highlights this.

And in general her skirt just makes everything campier. Both her programs are very literal (as is the case with more junior/less sophisticated programs) w the really obvious cues to ballet and the costume just takes it to the extreme.

at least all of us know these are ballet related moves if not their copy

 

[curious]

This insane jealousy directed at the best skaters in the world is so ridiculous and stupid. Nothing you say is going to change the fact that the two best skaters in the world are Russians. They have the best team .

 

[jenaj]

:thumbsup: Although fortunately, we have still have some. For me, Wagner, Rippon, Fernandez, Papadakis/Cizeron, Savchenko/Massot are some who purposely hearken back to those days and make sure that an emotional impact is as high priority as the technique that serves the program. And I'll add Nathan Chen, especially with his Nemesis SP. As of this week-end, I'm also adding Dmitri Aliev. It's great to see some younger skaters committed to the emotional quality. I'm sure I'll think of more, but those are off the top of my head.

Yes, and Satoko Miyahara.

 

[kevinVchicago]

Yes, apparently fans now believe they know more than judges and that they are not partial. [emoji23]

It's kinda off that one can deliberately omit Carolina when accusing of inflation. But hey, they know more than us apparently.

Is your user name a reference to Caro's costume? [emoji6]

 

[Blades of Passion]

Zagitova is far more finished and artistic than Tara whose jumps were also puny.

Highly disagreed, Tara showed both joy and sensitivity in her performing, in a way that is simply absent from most performances these days. People now are so fettered to trying to execute constant turns and moves within in a box, reducing the musicality and choreographic impact and freedom of movement and expression. Zagitova does a lot of stuff in her programs but it's not as much of a performance, it's definitely more of a routine. Medvedeva has better expression than Zagitova I would say, but then at the same time a lot of her movement is just nonsensical with regards to the music or an overall choreography, the same issue of doing stuff for the sake of it.

Let's examine the opening of Tara Lipinski's Olympic program in comparison - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_lGt6auYDo

Look at the softness of the arms and hands, the gentle bend of the body, the attention to creating a beautiful image and allowing it breathe with the way she does the forward glide with her toepick in the ice, followed by a flowing turn and then forward free leg extension, changing effortlessly into a short spiral with a very pleasing position. Following that is a layback without any severe position changes, just a nice held spin with very nice variations of the arms and hands, which is a very good interpretation of the music. Imagine how the softness and innocence of this choreography would thus be reduced by trying to put in layback with all kinds of position changes, invariably ending with a Beillmann for no reason.

fan nitpicking on "cheats" and under rotations is just as annoying, especially when it's accompanied by an air of superior knowledge.

Again, I am not a "fan" in the way you are trying to use that word, I do have superior knowledge. You can take it or leave it, but don't mischaracterize. Here is the toeloop on Medvedeva's 3S+3T combination:

Takeoff - https://imgur.com/a/o6GYT
Landing - https://imgur.com/a/uFTXJ

Does that look like a completed jump? The landing is clearly very short of being within 1/4 turn of the takeoff.

 

[Globetrotter]

Congratulations to Alina! She definitely deserved that win. I do believe she is one of the best spinners in Ladies right now.

And I'm glad Carolina hung on to that bronze. AMAZING SP, not so amazing FS...:eekn:

I have chosen to not comment until 2 days later. This competition simply smacked me hard about what I dislike of FS judging - PCS. I agree that Zagi and Zhenya deserves top 2, but both of them and CaroK were really receiving super inflated surrealistic PCS. I mean Caro received higher PCS for this messy programme (never mind that I was appalled by the green unitard) than the clean Bolero FP in Sochi2014? And I am talking as someone who is a fan of and who loves the old style basic SS which CaroK has. Certainly none of the Russian girls have SS that are at 8.5 level, let alone 9s and they cram a lot of content but they come across more routine rather than real art being interspersed- I would not think that goes into high IN but should score high TRs. None of the top 3 should get even 70 IMO for PCS although the top 2 placements were correct, with Zagi deserving the edge as her SP was clean. I am not a fan of Sotskova but overall, I would think she should be ahead of CaroK for a relatively better FS, minus a fall, due to tech content. Love the skaters for pushing boundaries but I hate the PCS scoring which seems totally arbitrary. I can see why casual observers like my BFF and Mum were totally confused and lost after they were forced to watch the FS top 6 with me thrice!

FYI - Mum likes CaroK most performance wise for the refinement and emotional aspect, BFF likes Zhenya best as he thinks she’s got something very special in expressive audience reachout. I like Zagi’s FS here most but both Mum and BFF thought her too campy with that tutu keep bending up and to them, that was bad posture.

 

[jenaj]

Highly disagreed, Tara showed both joy and sensitivity in her performing, in a way that is simply absent from most performances these days. People now are so fettered to trying to execute constant turns and moves within in a box, reducing the musicality and choreographic impact and freedom of movement and expression. Zagitova does a lot of stuff in her programs but it's not as much of a performance, it's definitely more of a routine. Medvedeva has better expression than Zagitova I would say, but then at the same time a lot of her movement is just nonsensical with regards to the music or an overall choreography, the same issue of doing stuff for the sake of it.

Let's examine the opening of Tara Lipinski's Olympic program in comparison - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_lGt6auYDo

Look at the softness of the arms and hands, the gentle bend of the body, the attention to creating a beautiful image and allowing it breathe with the way she does the forward glide with her toepick in the ice, followed by a flowing turn and then forward free leg extension, changing effortlessly into a short spiral with a very pleasing position. Following that is a layback without any severe position changes, just a nice held spin with very nice variations of the arms and hands, which is a very good interpretation of the music. Imagine how the softness and innocence of this choreography would thus be reduced by trying to put in layback with all kinds of position changes, invariably ending with a Beillmann for no reason.



Again, I am not a "fan" in the way you are trying to use that word, I do have superior knowledge. You can take it or leave it, but don't mischaracterize. Here is the toeloop on Medvedeva's 3S+3T combination:

Takeoff - https://imgur.com/a/o6GYT
Landing - https://imgur.com/a/uFTXJ

Does that look like a completed jump? The landing is clearly very short of being within 1/4 turn of the takeoff.

So give us your name and credentials and explain why you are expounding on a fan board? Also, show us where IJS mentions pre-rotations as it applies to the jump you are complaining about.

ETA: And it would help to learn the phrase, "in my opinion."

 

[Skater Boy]

Highly disagreed, Tara showed both joy and sensitivity in her performing, in a way that is simply absent from most performances these days. People now are so fettered to trying to execute constant turns and moves within in a box, reducing the musicality and choreographic impact and freedom of movement and expression. Zagitova does a lot of stuff in her programs but it's not as much of a performance, it's definitely more of a routine. Medvedeva has better expression than Zagitova I would say, but then at the same time a lot of her movement is just nonsensical with regards to the music or an overall choreography, the same issue of doing stuff for the sake of it.

Let's examine the opening of Tara Lipinski's Olympic program in comparison - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_lGt6auYDo

Look at the softness of the arms and hands, the gentle bend of the body, the attention to creating a beautiful image and allowing it breathe with the way she does the forward glide with her toepick in the ice, followed by a flowing turn and then forward free leg extension, changing effortlessly into a short spiral with a very pleasing position. Following that is a layback without any severe position changes, just a nice held spin with very nice variations of the arms and hands, which is a very good interpretation of the music. Imagine how the softness and innocence of this choreography would thus be reduced by trying to put in layback with all kinds of position changes, invariably ending with a Beillmann for no reason.



Again, I am not a "fan" in the way you are trying to use that word, I do have superior knowledge. You can take it or leave it, but don't mischaracterize. Here is the toeloop on Medvedeva's 3S+3T combination:

Takeoff - https://imgur.com/a/o6GYT
Landing - https://imgur.com/a/uFTXJ

Does that look like a completed jump? The landing is clearly very short of being within 1/4 turn of the takeoff.

I do not see it quite the same way as you. The youthful exuberance of Lipinski while endearing did not appear artistic or performance enhancing. It reminds me when the daytime emmy's screwed up because of the screaming idiots who were handing out an award. They were jumping up and down and screaming like little kids to the point the rest of the producers of the awards show thought Susan Lucci won when it was Susan Flannery - the show the two idiots were from.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

at least all of us know these are ballet related moves if not their copy

I love how when Zagitova does them and they are ballet related moves but when a North American like Osmond or Nathan Chen (who has ballet training) does them they get criticized. I wonder why that is?! #RhetoricalQuestion :sarcasm:

 

[schizoanalyst]

Also, show us where IJS mentions pre-rotations as it applies to the jump you are complaining about.

It doesn't have to and the issue isn't pre-rotation (it's just bad technique that should have GOE consideration). The ISU handbook instructs that under-rotations are determined by the number of revolutions. Basically, a triple needs more than 2.75 revolutions to be counted as rotated.

But to determine how many revolutions you have done - you must decide when a jump leaves the ice otherwise you can't measure how many revolutions have been done. What we've seen routinely done by technical panels is that they simply just check the landing position and just assume the take-off was nearly-backward (like the standard technique) when this isn't the case for skaters that pre-rotate. You have to check the take-off and landing position to determine the number of revolutions and too often pre-rotating skaters are just assumed to take-off from a different position than they really do.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I am not a "fan" in the way you are trying to use that word, I do have superior knowledge. You can take it or leave it, but don't mischaracterize. Here is the toeloop on Medvedeva's 3S+3T combination:

Takeoff - https://imgur.com/a/o6GYT
Landing - https://imgur.com/a/uFTXJ

Does that look like a completed jump? The landing is clearly very short of being within 1/4 turn of the takeoff.

"Superior" according to specific credentials or according to your own opinion of yourself? In the latter's case then I'm sure we all do have superior knowledge!

The landing isn't short to me but you're entitled to seeing it the way you see it. Just like you see Karen's jumps with your own perspective, which is totes cool! Real talk though: nobody who is responsible for the scores (I.e. Any one truly important, whose opinions the skaters actually care about) really cares a whole lot about pre-rotation to the extent you and others do. It is not harshly penalized, and the important thing under current standards is the landing which, in Med's case, compared to the entry trajectory of the 3T is within the 1/4 rotation IMO. Nobody except you and select others who dislike Medvedeva cares that her toe takes off at 185 degrees instead of 180 degrees (oooo the horror!) - and many within the ladies field would be nabbed for similar prerotation and the protocols would become a < fest a la Skate Canada... and such harshness was much to everyone's dismay, even if it was arguably more accurate in its assessment of complete jump rotation.

Although I will say, it is très amusing to see all those broken records still saying the same things about skaters they don't like due to obvious personal bias "her flutz is never called!", "there's so much pre-rotation and the judges should be pulling out a protractor and counting exacting rotations in the air in the few minutes they have to review these skaters after a performance". and the Olympics will be even more precious and I'm sure the results will be sketchy... perhaps I should start drafting an inconsequential letter to the ISU scrutinizing the inevitably scandalous results in a futile attempt to educate them on their own rules....

 

[Bcash]

I'm the farthest from a Tara Lipinski fan and yes her jumps were tiny. But she actually performed rather than mechanically going through the motions like Zagitova (kicking a leg, raising an arm for 0.5 second just to say hey I'm moving my upper body). Tara at the very least knows how to use her arms, and yes, some sensitivity to the music. Maybe we should credit Sandra for crafting the perfect programs for her, but Tara in the end delivered engaging performances.

And yes Zagitova chose two pieces of music that are uninspired warhorses. But if you go on youtube and find clips of ballet performances to these pieces, you'd still find great musicality in the teasing pauses, the long-held positions, the euphoric jumps and fast steps. With Zagitova it's just zzzzzzzzz zero visual rhythm. She's just not interpreting the music at all other than having sort of a generic pleasant expression. Compare that to P/C's free dance and see how a piece of classical composition can be illustrated and interpreted with movements.

 

[begin]

at least all of us know these are ballet related moves if not their copy

Precisely why I don't like them much. The basics of ballet are wonderful when put to use in meaningful skating choreography. Ballet itself does not translate well onto the ice. Very, very few skaters have the skill and fundamentals to make it work and not look ridiculous. Alina, at this point, is not one of those skaters. Trying to mold her into a ballerina smacks of parody to me.

As is perpetually the case with talented Eteri girls, I wish she were working with different choreographers.

 

[Skater Boy]

I'm the farthest from a Tara Lipinski fan and yes her jumps were tiny. But she actually performed rather than mechanically going through the motions like Zagitova (kicking a leg, raising an arm for 0.5 second just to say hey I'm moving my upper body). Tara at the very least knows how to use her arms, and yes, some sensitivity to the music. Maybe we should credit Sandra for crafting the perfect programs for her, but Tara in the end delivered engaging performances.

And yes Zagitova chose two pieces of music that are uninspired warhorses. But if you go on youtube and find clips of ballet performances to these pieces, you'd still find great musicality in the teasing pauses, the long-held positions, the euphoric jumps and fast steps. With Zagitova it's just zzzzzzzzz zero visual rhythm. She's just not interpreting the music at all other than having sort of a generic pleasant expression. Compare that to P/C's free dance and see how a piece of classical composition can be illustrated and interpreted with movements.

Yes, but in PC you have unequal talent that i overlooked in the marks. It is a different event. We are going no where some will love Tara andsome won't. Must will hate anyone who is Russian we get it. Most will love PC. We get it. Essentially we get it if you are Carolina or PC you are an artist. If you are Russian or Osmond you are not.

 

[chopinskate]

Precisely why I don't like them much. The basics of ballet are wonderful when put to use in meaningful skating choreography. Ballet itself does not translate well onto the ice. Very, very few skaters have the skill and fundamentals to make it work and not look ridiculous. Alina, at this point, is not one of those skaters. Trying to mold her into a ballerina smacks of parody to me.

As is perpetually the case with talented Eteri girls, I wish she were working with different choreographers.

Also, maybe Alina can learn proper posture and extension before doing "ballet".

 

[charlotte14]

I'm the farthest from a Tara Lipinski fan and yes her jumps were tiny. But she actually performed rather than mechanically going through the motions like Zagitova (kicking a leg, raising an arm for 0.5 second just to say hey I'm moving my upper body). Tara at the very least knows how to use her arms, and yes, some sensitivity to the music. Maybe we should credit Sandra for crafting the perfect programs for her, but Tara in the end delivered engaging performances.

And yes Zagitova chose two pieces of music that are uninspired warhorses. But if you go on youtube and find clips of ballet performances to these pieces, you'd still find great musicality in the teasing pauses, the long-held positions, the euphoric jumps and fast steps. With Zagitova it's just zzzzzzzzz zero visual rhythm. She's just not interpreting the music at all other than having sort of a generic pleasant expression. Compare that to P/C's free dance and see how a piece of classical composition can be illustrated and interpreted with movements.

I am the farthest from a Zagitova fan and yes she is slow. But she actually perfoms the same as Tara Lipninski did.